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  #51  
Old 12-03-2017, 11:55 AM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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Originally Posted by Hagrid View Post
Why does this always happen? Is the Horde just a phase that people grow out of?
No. It's just that the Horde today is literally worse than its ever been, and Blizzard has quite effectively sabotaged Horde pride.

People are sick of Orcs chimping out instead of actually being honorable warriors. They know the Forsaken are evil scumbags. Trolls know Blizzard will only ever reluctantly give the Darkspear anything, and yank it all back as soon as their backs are turned. Tauren fans? The Tauren get some mediocre development, but it's better than the rest of the Western Horde.

Blood Elves are presently their leading race in terms of story development and writing quality. Fuck it. We should have made Lor'themar Warchief back in the day. It'd be less a charade than what we have now.

So no. The Horde wasn't a phase. They just ruined the Horde.
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  #52  
Old 12-03-2017, 04:27 PM
Farendaire Farendaire is offline

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Well, this thread finally got me to register with the site. So that's... good?

Frankly, I believe the Horde has a legitimate reason to wage war with the Alliance based on Stormheim. I mean, as ridiculous of a fact that no one went through diplomatic channels to smooth over Broken Shore is, Genn and Lorna firing upon Sylvanas's entire fleet unprovoked is a clear act of war. They were right that Sylvanas had questionable intentions, yes - but the Alliance is the aggressor.

Not that the genocide involved in the burning of Teldrassil is at all justifiable.
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  #53  
Old 12-03-2017, 04:50 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Farendaire View Post
Well, this thread finally got me to register with the site. So that's... good?

Frankly, I believe the Horde has a legitimate reason to wage war with the Alliance based on Stormheim. I mean, as ridiculous of a fact that no one went through diplomatic channels to smooth over Broken Shore is, Genn and Lorna firing upon Sylvanas's entire fleet unprovoked is a clear act of war. They were right that Sylvanas had questionable intentions, yes - but the Alliance is the aggressor.

Not that the genocide involved in the burning of Teldrassil is at all justifiable.
That last sentence is kind of important though, isn't it?
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  #54  
Old 12-03-2017, 05:16 PM
Farendaire Farendaire is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
That last sentence is kind of important though, isn't it?
Well, yes, but that's not really the OP's question. The Horde and Alliance have enough complicated history to hate each other, and the Horde has a reason to actively wage war. It's everything that happens after that gives the Alliance what's clearly the moral high ground, unless Before the Storm shows them as doing something seriously awful - and from what I can remember, the absolute worst thing the Alliance has been responsible for in recent memory was Taurajo, which Baine himself recognized was legitimate military action.
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  #55  
Old 12-03-2017, 05:33 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Farendaire View Post
Well, yes, but that's not really the OP's question. The Horde and Alliance have enough complicated history to hate each other, and the Horde has a reason to actively wage war. It's everything that happens after that gives the Alliance what's clearly the moral high ground, unless Before the Storm shows them as doing something seriously awful - and from what I can remember, the absolute worst thing the Alliance has been responsible for in recent memory was Taurajo, which Baine himself recognized was legitimate military action.
The OP appears to be concerned with them appearing as villainous aggressors. You can point to Stormheim, but that doesn't go all the way into explaining the Horde's moral case for what appears to be a war of genocide.

There's also something about it that just seems antithetical to the identity of the post Warcraft 2 Horde. Even Sylvanas I wouldn't have pegged as evil until now. Immoral and pragmatic, sure, but not to this level.
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  #56  
Old 12-03-2017, 06:10 PM
Farendaire Farendaire is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
The OP appears to be concerned with them appearing as villainous aggressors. You can point to Stormheim, but that doesn't go all the way into explaining the Horde's moral case for what appears to be a war of genocide.

There's also something about it that just seems antithetical to the identity of the post Warcraft 2 Horde. Even Sylvanas I wouldn't have pegged as evil until now. Immoral and pragmatic, sure, but not to this level.
The problem is that a lot of discussion about Teldrassil, and I'm guilty of it, is based on conjecture until Before the Storm comes out; we can't begin to evaluate Sylvanas's reasoning until we know its context. What leads to Teldrassil? Stormheim is the start, but we need everything that happens afterwards as well.

To clarify myself, I believe the Burning of Teldrassil is unjustified, but Blizzard certainly isn't averse to contrived miscommunication. It might just be Sylvanas . . . who, I have to disagree with you on this, has always been evil, despite being a relatively well-developed, complicated character as far as Warcraft characters go. To jump off what Ethenil references to Before the Storm, the rest of the Horde's leadership is barely tolerant of Sylvanas's rule and taking note of basically everything - Example A, there is probably a good reason why the Alliance isn't just plagued from a distance in their march on Lordaeron.

But I realize I'm probably giving Blizzard too much benefit of the doubt. The more I try to make sense of it, the harder it gets...

Last edited by Farendaire; 12-03-2017 at 06:12 PM..
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  #57  
Old 12-04-2017, 06:14 AM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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Are you serious, mate? Literally everybody on this site hates Thrall.
I don't.
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  #58  
Old 12-04-2017, 10:22 AM
Gromak Gromak is offline

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I don't.
Now you're just being contrarian for the sake of it.
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  #59  
Old 12-04-2017, 08:09 PM
Embers of Darnassus Embers of Darnassus is offline

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It's tough to say why the Horde has reasons for war until Before the Storm comes out.
For one the burning of Teldrassil reeks of false flag operation, I don't see the alliance driving the Horde to go that far without some sort of reason, if not for moral reasons, for strategic ones, Garrosh was humiliated trying to take Ashenvale, proving it is no easy target, outside of lumber that theatre seems like it would be too much of an effort when her goal is Stormwind (which should be easier to run a Eastern Kingdoms Campaign from her own seat of power in Lordaeron). if not behind the scenes fuckery, then the night elves must have some sort of superweapon or azurite stockpile. The fact that something leads the horde is there must be what leaves Lorderon vulnerable later on.

Post Burning i would love to see the Alliance be the (completely justified) aggressors from there on out. The loss of a capital would be enough to bring Anduin on the side of Greymane and Proudmore, and those two are itching to attack the horde. They march to and take the Undercity, and now the Horde is committed too.
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  #60  
Old 12-04-2017, 09:35 PM
Eillas Eillas is offline

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Originally Posted by Embers of Darnassus View Post
It's tough to say why the Horde has reasons for war until Before the Storm comes out.
For one the burning of Teldrassil reeks of false flag operation, I don't see the alliance driving the Horde to go that far without some sort of reason, if not for moral reasons, for strategic ones, Garrosh was humiliated trying to take Ashenvale, proving it is no easy target, outside of lumber that theatre seems like it would be too much of an effort when her goal is Stormwind (which should be easier to run a Eastern Kingdoms Campaign from her own seat of power in Lordaeron). if not behind the scenes fuckery, then the night elves must have some sort of superweapon or azurite stockpile. The fact that something leads the horde is there must be what leaves Lorderon vulnerable later on.

Post Burning i would love to see the Alliance be the (completely justified) aggressors from there on out. The loss of a capital would be enough to bring Anduin on the side of Greymane and Proudmore, and those two are itching to attack the horde. They march to and take the Undercity, and now the Horde is committed too.
I highly doubt anyone in the Alliance has the desire to burn Teldrassil down. And before you say Genn, and Jaina. They hate the horde, but like the Night elves.
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  #61  
Old 12-05-2017, 12:01 AM
Melorandor Melorandor is offline

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Random act of Horde violence.

I heard a theory that, the reason the Horde burns Teldrassil down or why Sylvanas does it because it ended up getting corrupted yadda yadda. I am still feeling Before the Storm isn't -really- going to answer any questions on the lead up to BfA.
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  #62  
Old 12-05-2017, 01:51 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Now you're just being contrarian for the sake of it.
Ehm, I like Thrall except for Cataclysm.
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  #63  
Old 12-05-2017, 03:37 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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Are you serious, mate? Literally everybody on this site hates Thrall.
I don't hate Thrall. I like Thrall. I just think that his characterization took a hit and a bit of nosedive as a result of Cata, with MoP and WoD having lingering traces of Cata Thrall. (Basically the entire Garrosh arc.)
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  #64  
Old 12-05-2017, 05:27 AM
Eillas Eillas is offline

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I like thrall.
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  #65  
Old 12-05-2017, 08:28 PM
Embers of Darnassus Embers of Darnassus is offline

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Originally Posted by Eillas View Post
I highly doubt anyone in the Alliance has the desire to burn Teldrassil down. And before you say Genn, and Jaina. They hate the horde, but like the Night elves.
I could have worded that better but I didn't mean to imply Alliance radicals did it, was leaning more towards a false flag operation by a third party to pin blame on the horde. To create war. Current speculation usually points to the desolate council. After that, all the third party would have to do is kick back and watch Alliance retribution commence.
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  #66  
Old 12-05-2017, 08:58 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Embers of Darnassus View Post
I could have worded that better but I didn't mean to imply Alliance radicals did it, was leaning more towards a false flag operation by a third party to pin blame on the horde. To create war. Current speculation usually points to the desolate council. After that, all the third party would have to do is kick back and watch Alliance retribution commence.
The artwork we have so far, taken with the size of the task involved with burning a massive, living, and perpetually wet tree, suggests that the full might of the Horde was behind the effort.

I appreciate the creativity of certain Horde posters in looking for a way for this not to be their fault, but Occam's razor is generally a good guide for this sort of thing.

.... now, if you're a Horde fan, I'm not trying to tear you down. I know that's become something of a pastime, and in the past I certainly engaged in it, but it's not fair and Alliance fans need to remember that many Horde fans don't like being portrayed as evil monsters (especially after the franchise sold them as being better than that). Again, I know I fed into that, but I'm trying not to, because the writers are wronging you too.

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  #67  
Old 12-05-2017, 09:22 PM
Rhllor Rhllor is offline

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the alliance infiltrated spies in our mining activities before BFA
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  #68  
Old 12-05-2017, 09:38 PM
Embers of Darnassus Embers of Darnassus is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
The artwork we have so far, taken with the size of the task involved with burning a massive, living, and perpetually wet tree, suggests that the full might of the Horde was behind the effort.

I appreciate the creativity of certain Horde posters in looking for a way for this not to be their fault, but Occam's razor is generally a good guide for this sort of thing.

.... now, if you're a Horde fan, I'm not trying to tear you down. I know that's become something of a pastime, and in the past I certainly engaged in it, but it's not fair and Alliance fans need to remember that many Horde fans don't like being portrayed as evil monsters (especially after the franchise sold them as being better than that). Again, I know I fed into that, but I'm trying not to, because the writers are wronging you too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFTvENHcobM
Eh I play both factions, and as far as my Horde side goes, I actually revel in being evil and I want it to be us who do it. I just don't want to fall under Chaotic Stupid in the process. So a reason would be nice. But that's just me. as for what I'm posting earlier, I'm not trying to make excuses, I'm just stating my opinion on how I see this actually playing out.
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