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  #26  
Old 11-05-2017, 11:13 PM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Besides, Old Gods jumped the shark a long time ago.
The whole series jumped the shark ages ago. The only reason to continue following it is holding onto the hope they can learn from their mistakes and do things better next time. At this stage, I'm almost 100% certain Old Gods will be involved. My hope is that they've learned Twilight Cultists don't go over well, and decided to make this more eerie and indirect.
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  #27  
Old 11-05-2017, 11:24 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Krakhed View Post
The whole series jumped the shark ages ago. The only reason to continue following it is holding onto the hope they can learn from their mistakes and do things better next time. At this stage, I'm almost 100% certain Old Gods will be involved. My hope is that they've learned Twilight Cultists don't go over well, and decided to make this more eerie and indirect.
You sound like a very optimistic person. How do you do it?
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  #28  
Old 11-05-2017, 11:47 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
You sound like a very optimistic person. How do you do it?
Embrace the shadows. I'd recommend reading Krakhed's posts on Void and Light theories, he really seems to hit spot on regarding the writers' perspective.

When you can follow the design decisions of the writers seamlessly and thoroughly, you stop being frustrated by future decisions because you know what's to come.

I'm pasting below my posts on faction angst from the main thread:

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Blizzard doesn't have a Horde bias problem. They have a "Doesn't Know How to Write the Horde" problem.

They want us to have the New Horde and the Old Horde at the same time. The reasoned, restrained, spiritual Horde that just wants to coexist and the badass war machine that doesn't care about spirits and rapes the land anywhere it sets up shop. But they can't have that, because eating babies and saving babies doesn't somehow cancel each other out and make you not a baby-eater.

First with Garrosh, and now by putting the "playable villain" faction in charge, they've made the Horde into villains, thematically and in action, but keep telling Horde players they're the good guys while they help despot after despot do horrible things. And now we get to do it all over again, at a time when it makes the least sense, because they think they're enormously clever when they make the faction conflict cyclical, i.e. just the same story again with a new paint job.

It's saddening whenever I see Horde players celebrate these villainous Warchiefs who don't give a damn about their character or player race, as if being despised by the Warchief is grounds for blind devotion to him/her. People who heralded or still herald Garrosh as this great leader even though he wanted them and their entire chosen player race dead, or who "get chills" hearing Sylvanas shout "for the Horde" even though we know it's all bullshit because she renews her assertions of not really caring about the Horde at all every time we hear or read what she's really thinking. Blizzard is shoveling the entire faction this same stale garbage over and over, and they just keep wolfing it down without complaint and eager for more.

And they complain about Thrall and Vol'jin, because Blizzard makes any Warchief who's not fighting the Alliance a useless, do-nothing Warchief. Any Warchief that isn't trying to destroy the Alliance gets plunked down on his throne to do nothing until it's time to die or step down. They just can't seem to figure out how to make the factions do anything meaningful that isn't fighting the other faction, and that loses all meaning because of how clumsily it's inevitably handled. All they're good for is the same redundant war over and over again and maintaining PvP over meaningless objectives.

I'm convinced that if they got their shit together, picked a Horde and wrote it instead of continuing to write two fundamentally incompatible Hordes at the same time, the Alliance side of things would fall into place with it. The Alliance and Horde exist to play off each other. It's all they're good for at this point. Which means as long as one faction is narratively schizophrenic the other will by necessity be incongruous and broken in its response. Fix the Horde and you fix the Alliance. But they can't (or more accurately, deliberately won't) because their heads are stuck in the WC1-2 nostalgia of the Horde being non-sympathetic protagonist bad guys, so they keep dragging it down to drink from that same filthy trough again, and dragging any faction interaction down with it.

Until they fix it, they shouldn't be even touching another faction war. But they are. They're hitting that same road again with the same broken parts still in place, the same inevitable problems they always cause, and the same players (clearly not all of them, but evidently enough to keep Blizzard convinced this is the way to go) who insist that nothing is wrong with it as long as they get shiny new stuff to look at.
I don't care if my faction of preference is 100% psychotic Sylvanas and Tolkien orcs.

Nor I think there's anything wrong with me for liking that.

The same goes for playing Death Knight and enjoying the almost villain narrative we got in Legion.

Also Vol'jin was best man, rip.

Bring me war, blood and fallen kingdoms.

Bring me characters dying to give room for new blood.

Bring me consequences in Warcraft, not a constant state of peace where nothing ever changes and you need big purple tentacles seething green fire to make stuff happen.

Swords and shields, not spaceships and giant robots.

Bring down Teldrassil, Undercity, Stormwind and Orgrimmar.

Chaos, death, destruction and misery.

Not to mention the fair share of mundane political threats and mystery we're getting in Kul Tiras.

This is literally the best expansion ever and could only be better if it was Argent Crusade versus Ebon Blade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganishka View Post
I just had the hottest and most pleasant fever dream.

Imagine this: Battle for Azeroth is the finale in a long-term story arc that Blizzard put in place to put Thrall back into the Warchief seat, while eliminating evil and tyrannical members of the Horde leadership that didn't belong in the Horde to begin with (Sylvanas and Garrosh).

Expansion starts, everything is just war and death. Thrall, realizing that this war will likely be endless and cause countless deaths more than it has already, decides it's time to take back the throne he foolishly gave away and end the war before more innocents on both sides die. He also knows that he can't just walk in, Mak'gora Sylvanas, and end the war, as the Alliance likely will still try to kill them anyway due to the current state of things. So, he needs someone he's on good terms with, someone who he loves almost like family and is a member of the Alliance.

Cue Jaina. Jaina is still hateful and vicious. Thrall, through humility and kindness, manages to calm her down enough to begin a dialogue. They air all of their grievances with one another, with Thrall finally shattering Jaina's hate, and her crushing his self-doubt about being Warchief. They come up with a plan to dismantle the war entirely, and bring a modicum of peace to the world for everyone's sake. Thrall sends adventurers to aid the Desolate Council in causing a revolt amongst the more noble and honorable Forsaken, with the rest of the Horde helping. Jaina, meanwhile, using her personality, merit, and charm, manages to convince the leaders of the Alliance to follow her plan to take out the Forsaken infrastructure, directing a party of adventurers to take out key Forsaken sycophants like Apothecary Faranell.

They reach the final raid, where Sylvanas is preparing her "ultimate weapon" to kill everyone on Azeroth that isn't her and her toadies. Both armies have damaged the Forsaken loyalists, however they don't know they were being manipulated by Thrall and Jaina. They meet and almost come to blows, but both Thrall and Jaina give a wonderful speech about how permanent peace might not be possible, but at this point both the Horde and Alliance had simply been killing each other for no other reason than out of simple hatred. A war that is no longer about protecting those they care about is not a war worth fighting, and that if they all care about saving their peoples, they will put down their weapons and bury the hatchet. They do. Their armies merge into one unite, and flood into Sylvana's fortress, with Horde and Alliance leaders helping each other and the raiders during the numerous boss encounters.

Final battle is Thrall, Jaina, Genn, Vol'jin and the raiders versus Sylvanas and Nathanos and whatever hideous weapon they have built. After Sylvanas is beaten, the cutscene shows Thrall and Genn going on melee offense against a bowless Sylvanas wielding blades, while Jaina and Vol'jin tear Nathanos apart with magic and voodoo to keep him from killing Thrall and Genn. Thrall manages to cripple Sylvanas, but, instead of just finishing her, he hoists her up, and passes her over to Genn who brutally decapitates with his bare hands in a grisly game of hot-potato!

Afterward, Thrall and Anduin shake hands, and declare their war over.

Fin.
I like the initial idea, even as a fan of Sylvanas.

The only thing I don't like is: yet another Horde leader turning into raid boss.
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  #29  
Old 11-06-2017, 03:04 AM
Patrick_C Patrick_C is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I've heard some people say they want the Horde to be less like bloodthirsty monsters and more like Conan. The problem?

Conan is absolutely a bloodthirsty monster. People don't always seem to understand that.
AFAIK, the line is only from a movie. I was referring to the characterization of the original short stories, which is way more well rounded.
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  #30  
Old 11-06-2017, 03:17 AM
taelon taelon is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Yeah, I'm aware that Sylvannas uses a magical McGuffin, but that doesn't explain how the Horde also kicks the Night Elves so easily off of their home turf in terrain that they should have natural advantages in. Ditto with the Alliance doing so in Lordaeron. Lordaeron by rights should be a high casualty slog with Forsaken plague weapons available - but the Alliance... just turn up.... somehow... probably with the help of space bats or *snickers* void elves.

Like I said, I don't mind a war storyline, I do mind a contrived, silly war storyline where things happen arbitrarily... and especially where they see it as another way to homogenize the Alliance even further.

But it's good to see you too.
Forsaken plague isn't as dangerous as people think. I remember that it was properly explained on EU story forums several times.
But the damage it does isn't muich different than hurling a boulder.
The disadvantage it even has is that it doesn't keep rolling but the cataclysm strain does leave pool behind. It does have a much higher fear factor though.

Add to it that both factions have become very experienced in fighting the undead and have specialized weapons against them aswell.

I also have to wonder if horde can use plotdevices why alliance can't use theirs.
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  #31  
Old 11-06-2017, 03:54 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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My only grievance is that the Battle for Azeroth site does not in some way visualize the community's massive rectal bleeding. Still, this is absolutely gold. Thank you for this, Blizzard.

Last edited by Marthen; 11-06-2017 at 03:56 AM..
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  #32  
Old 11-06-2017, 04:09 AM
taelon taelon is offline

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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
I don't care if my faction of preference is 100% psychotic Sylvanas and Tolkien orcs.

Nor I think there's anything wrong with me for liking that.

The same goes for playing Death Knight and enjoying the almost villain narrative we got in Legion.

Also Vol'jin was best man, rip.

Bring me war, blood and fallen kingdoms.

Bring me characters dying to give room for new blood.

Bring me consequences in Warcraft, not a constant state of peace where nothing ever changes and you need big purple tentacles seething green fire to make stuff happen.

Swords and shields, not spaceships and giant robots.

Bring down Teldrassil, Undercity, Stormwind and Orgrimmar.

Chaos, death, destruction and misery.

Not to mention the fair share of mundane political threats and mystery we're getting in Kul Tiras.

This is literally the best expansion ever and could only be better if it was Argent Crusade versus Ebon Blade.
While nothing wrong with enjoying being the more vilanous type.
I don't think you would really like the consequences of being it.

The way wow is set-up the issue is the neutral factions, the horde would everything their against. It just doesn't work and it's always hurt the alliance experience with how this is being handled.

Another issue is that the alliance is just much more powerfull in army warfare. Their a larger population, better established and more infrastructure.

If the previous faction war didn't happen it would have been okey to have skirmishes on new contintinents where one nation or an faction organisation want that location but theirs another nation/organisation of the otherside wanting it as well.

I'm wondering krainz would it not be okey to just be vilanous against enemy npc instead of the alliance? Hell it could even be one faction and some nations have a more villanous aproach towards their enemies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganishka View Post
I just had the hottest and most pleasant fever dream.

Imagine this: Battle for Azeroth is the finale in a long-term story arc that Blizzard put in place to put Thrall back into the Warchief seat, while eliminating evil and tyrannical members of the Horde leadership that didn't belong in the Horde to begin with (Sylvanas and Garrosh).

Expansion starts, everything is just war and death. Thrall, realizing that this war will likely be endless and cause countless deaths more than it has already, decides it's time to take back the throne he foolishly gave away and end the war before more innocents on both sides die. He also knows that he can't just walk in, Mak'gora Sylvanas, and end the war, as the Alliance likely will still try to kill them anyway due to the current state of things. So, he needs someone he's on good terms with, someone who he loves almost like family and is a member of the Alliance.

Cue Jaina. Jaina is still hateful and vicious. Thrall, through humility and kindness, manages to calm her down enough to begin a dialogue. They air all of their grievances with one another, with Thrall finally shattering Jaina's hate, and her crushing his self-doubt about being Warchief. They come up with a plan to dismantle the war entirely, and bring a modicum of peace to the world for everyone's sake. Thrall sends adventurers to aid the Desolate Council in causing a revolt amongst the more noble and honorable Forsaken, with the rest of the Horde helping. Jaina, meanwhile, using her personality, merit, and charm, manages to convince the leaders of the Alliance to follow her plan to take out the Forsaken infrastructure, directing a party of adventurers to take out key Forsaken sycophants like Apothecary Faranell.

They reach the final raid, where Sylvanas is preparing her "ultimate weapon" to kill everyone on Azeroth that isn't her and her toadies. Both armies have damaged the Forsaken loyalists, however they don't know they were being manipulated by Thrall and Jaina. They meet and almost come to blows, but both Thrall and Jaina give a wonderful speech about how permanent peace might not be possible, but at this point both the Horde and Alliance had simply been killing each other for no other reason than out of simple hatred. A war that is no longer about protecting those they care about is not a war worth fighting, and that if they all care about saving their peoples, they will put down their weapons and bury the hatchet. They do. Their armies merge into one unite, and flood into Sylvana's fortress, with Horde and Alliance leaders helping each other and the raiders during the numerous boss encounters.

Final battle is Thrall, Jaina, Genn, Vol'jin and the raiders versus Sylvanas and Nathanos and whatever hideous weapon they have built. After Sylvanas is beaten, the cutscene shows Thrall and Genn going on melee offense against a bowless Sylvanas wielding blades, while Jaina and Vol'jin tear Nathanos apart with magic and voodoo to keep him from killing Thrall and Genn. Thrall manages to cripple Sylvanas, but, instead of just finishing her, he hoists her up, and passes her over to Genn who brutally decapitates with his bare hands in a grisly game of hot-potato!

Afterward, Thrall and Anduin shake hands, and declare their war over.

Fin.
Sounds a lot like Mist of Pandaria.

It would also help not being negative about Jaina. While in a way hatefull, the emotional anger has mainly diminished leaving only calm pragmatic reasoning. I think that thrall attempting to convince Jaina actually make her angry.
The entire issue was that Thrall never did anything to stop his horde even while being the Warchief and only butted in when alliance wanted to react. Jaina pleaded for his help when the horde were assaulting Theramore and he abandoned her.

You have to understand since Warcraft2 we had the alliance not finishing off the orcs and hope for peace and they keep backstabbing and going to war with he alliance over and over again.
It's like the bazillioned time the alliance would just go for a truce and it's making them look like idiots.

A few issues are through WoW lifespan and setup:
- the horde has kept attacking the alliance without any response. TBC might have been the most peacefull expansion between the 2 factions.
- Alliance is bigger and stronger
- History of the horde

The constant conflict could work if it wasn't ramped up or if alliance didn't take so many unequal hits from the horde.
The only way a constant conflict can work now is:
a: blow up azeroth and have the factions settle on new planet. This gives a much bigger chance of equal power.
b: have npc's factions of equal strenght that are continously threatening the horde and alliance lands. The alliance is bigger and stronger but also has more to defend requiring more soldiers to defend their land.
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  #33  
Old 11-06-2017, 04:14 AM
Sa'danak Sa'danak is offline

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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
I don't care if my faction of preference is 100% psychotic Sylvanas and Tolkien orcs.

Nor I think there's anything wrong with me for liking that.

The same goes for playing Death Knight and enjoying the almost villain narrative we got in Legion.

Also Vol'jin was best man, rip.

Bring me war, blood and fallen kingdoms.

Bring me characters dying to give room for new blood.

Bring me consequences in Warcraft, not a constant state of peace where nothing ever changes and you need big purple tentacles seething green fire to make stuff happen.

Swords and shields, not spaceships and giant robots.

Bring down Teldrassil, Undercity, Stormwind and Orgrimmar.

Chaos, death, destruction and misery.

Not to mention the fair share of mundane political threats and mystery we're getting in Kul Tiras.

This is literally the best expansion ever and could only be better if it was Argent Crusade versus Ebon Blade.
To be frank, you're missing the point a lot of us are making. It's not about the faction war inherently being stupid (some believe that but several here don't) its about the contrived way they keep dredging it up by mangling the writing for poorly thought out "rule of cool" ideas.

I'm pretty sure it would be a better expansion if the lore made a lick of sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
I like the initial idea, even as a fan of Sylvanas.

The only thing I don't like is: yet another Horde leader turning into raid boss.
I don't like the idea at all because it involves Jaina forgiving Thrall for no reason. Who is Thrall of all fucking characters to lecture anyone about moving on from problems? He killed Jainas father in the name of peace then proceeded to: allow the morally questionable Forsaken into the Horde, appoint its worst leader ever despite all the reservations of his allies (and said dictator himself!) and then stepped away from everything to deus ex machinima Deathwing before finally deciding everything was ok because he killed Garrosh well after it meant anything. Then he stepped away from everything so he could have his family happiness at the expense of the world. Thrall has never once taken responsibility for his actions in a believable manner and until he does there's no evidence he deserves to lead again.

And this is not even getting into how much this completely rehashes Mists ending outside of the outright death of said villain rather than a very hamfisted tie-in to the next expansion. This line of events literally happened just a few in-universe years ago, why would the Alliance ever go for a peace after we already had the siege of Orgimmar? If this route were to make any sense whatsoever then the Horde would need to paying with way more than Sylvannas's life, else-wise what possible reason do the Alliance have not just to tear the Horde to pieces once and for all? After all they would have well proven they can't be trusted to keep monstrous dictators out of the leadership role.
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  #34  
Old 11-06-2017, 04:46 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by taelon View Post
While nothing wrong with enjoying being the more vilanous type.
I don't think you would really like the consequences of being it.

The way wow is set-up the issue is the neutral factions, the horde would everything their against. It just doesn't work and it's always hurt the alliance experience with how this is being handled.

Another issue is that the alliance is just much more powerfull in army warfare. Their a larger population, better established and more infrastructure.

If the previous faction war didn't happen it would have been okey to have skirmishes on new contintinents where one nation or an faction organisation want that location but theirs another nation/organisation of the otherside wanting it as well.

I'm wondering krainz would it not be okey to just be vilanous against enemy npc instead of the alliance? Hell it could even be one faction and some nations have a more villanous aproach towards their enemies.
I can only read that as "pls don't hurt my alliance come on bite these evil enemies"

lmao enemies
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  #35  
Old 11-06-2017, 06:24 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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If Blizzard really wants war, I hope this time, when the Alliance has the Horde by its throat, it finally snaps and decides to cut them down instead of sparing them.

The Alliance let the orcs live after the Second War, then Jaina sacrificed her father for peace post-3rd war, then Varian spared the Horde after Orgrimmar.

This time, when the orcs ask for mercy again, the Alliance should show none.
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  #36  
Old 11-06-2017, 07:02 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
If Blizzard really wants war, I hope this time, when the Alliance has the Horde by its throat, it finally snaps and decides to cut them down instead of sparing them.

The Alliance let the orcs live after the Second War, then Jaina sacrificed her father for peace post-3rd war, then Varian spared the Horde after Orgrimmar.

This time, when the orcs ask for mercy again, the Alliance should show none.
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  #37  
Old 11-06-2017, 07:03 AM
Jon Targaryen Jon Targaryen is offline

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If Blizzard really wants war, I hope this time, when the Alliance has the Horde by its throat, it finally snaps and decides to cut them down instead of sparing them.

The Alliance let the orcs live after the Second War, then Jaina sacrificed her father for peace post-3rd war, then Varian spared the Horde after Orgrimmar.

This time, when the orcs ask for mercy again, the Alliance should show none.
Never going to happen. For the same reason it didn't happen the times you mentioned.

Someone on the BlizzardWatch podcast theorized that this expansion could be a prelude to ending the faction conflict permanently. Not sure how I would feel about that. I thought we were done with this is MoP but apparently not.
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  #38  
Old 11-06-2017, 07:10 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
I can only read that as "pls don't hurt my alliance come on bite these evil enemies"

lmao enemies
I addressed this argument already down in my complaint post in the Halls of Lordaeron. Taking the occasional loss is one thing, but the Night Elves have taken loss after inexplicable loss that is at odds with how they were presented in Warcraft III. You can certainly reply with "lulz, they just suck now", but a Night Elf fan can reply with "yeah, for stupid and arbitrary reasons, like giving Tyrande a lobotomy and denying the race access to what it had in Warcraft 3".

I also addressed this in my complaint post, things just happen in this franchise that the writers don't seem to care to explain in any reasonable sense.

Let's go back to Cataclysm for example. We are told that the Horde is in a dire resource crisis for which they need resources. The Night Elves aren't willing to give it to them, people are starving, and despite being technologically advanced, the Orcs can't farm. (Yes, I'm still on that. No, my absence does not make the other side of that argument true.)

Then they suddenly have the resources and the manpower to kick off massive offensives against the Alliance, including Magnataur, Proto Drakes and Sea Monsters. Not to mention that traditionally Night Elven members of the Cenarion Circle don't care, to the point where they don't even raise a peep of protest.

Now, I am sure that the handwaves will come in soon. "Oh, Garrosh was just that good", "Cenarius is cool with the Orcs now", just as they are coming in for the Horde suddenly having all of Kalimdor, and the Alliance suddenly being in the Tirisfal Glades, and it's all ex post facto nonsense that in no way dismisses the "jerky" sense as to how things just happen without the proper buildup or care for how these events may have transpired.

You all look like this to me! (Mostly in reference to the alternate scenario)


This of course leaves aside that little problem of me having no reason to be invested in the race that I'm now supposed to feel sympathy for. Why would anyone but a Warcraft III fan do that? When in the last ten years have they been presented sympathetically or in any way in a competent fashion?

How, in other words, have they earned this moment?

Actually no, I'm going to stop you there. As a fan who is most supposed to be impacted by this, I have no problem in just saying that they haven't.


... and look, I get it, you've indicated that you just do not care about that sort of thing. You just want blood misery and death, and you don't care how you get it. I would recommend that you consult a garden hose and an anthill for that, or spray your house for termites while listening to the 2016 Doom soundtrack. I did that, it was fun. But if I am looking for a competent war story, this kind of it just happens because we think it would be cool for it to happen, and screw the prior lore kind of presentation is not something that I can accept.

Last edited by Kyalin V. Raintree; 11-06-2017 at 07:23 AM..
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  #39  
Old 11-06-2017, 07:41 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I've heard some people say they want the Horde to be less like bloodthirsty monsters and more like Conan. The problem?

Conan is absolutely a bloodthirsty monster. People don't always seem to understand that.
It depends on the adaptation. In the books, he becomes the good king of Aquilonia. He is not so much a "bloodthirsty monster," but the barbarian at the gates of a socially and morally decadent Rome (and Antiquity) on the verge of collapse. And many readers of Robert Howard's Conan novel series find the Conan movies poor representations of the Conan mythos.

In the context of the film adaptation you quote, it's important to remember that Conan at that time was a gladiator slave who lived only for glory and combat. The direction in the narrative even suggests that this quote was the moment that spurred his owner/master to free him, particularly when you look at how his master reacts to Conan's proclamation. The narrator surmises that he was freed because he had become like a "wild animal that had been kept too long." His behavior and worldview is unnatural to who he truly is. His return to self requires his freedom and a rediscovery of purpose.

So I'm not sure if this quote represents accurately who Conan is so much as it does what he had become: a hollowed shell of his former self. Conan had ironically adopted a worldview comparable to Thulsa's warband at the start of the film. The conquered had become like his conquerer. Consider, for example, that Conan's story in the film begins with his people being crushed by his enemies, his people (himself included) driven before them, and his mother dying in her moment of cornered desperation.

Conan's arc in the film involves him recognizing the limitations of the worldviews for both the Riddle of Steel (as represented by his father, younger Thulsa Doom, and pre-arc Conan) and the "Riddle of Flesh" (as represented by the older Thulsa Doom). Flesh dies and steel (of his father's sword) can break. It's his willpower, however, that guides the power of both steel and flesh.
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  #40  
Old 11-06-2017, 07:41 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
tears
shush bby

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Let's go back to Cataclysm for example. We are told that the Horde is in a dire resource crisis for which they need resources. The Night Elves aren't willing to give it to them, people are starving, and despite being technologically advanced, the Orcs can't farm. (Yes, I'm still on that. No, my absence does not make the other side of that argument true.)

Then they suddenly have the resources and the manpower to kick off massive offensives against the Alliance, including Magnataur, Proto Drakes and Sea Monsters. Not to mention that traditionally Night Elven members of the Cenarion Circle don't care, to the point where they don't even raise a peep of protest.
Cataclysm happens at year 28. B4A happens at least at year 35.

Five years from Cataclysm to B4A is enough for any nation with squadrons of mages to amass resources and recover from a crisis because of ever-improving portal technicity.


And before you go saying that portals are gameplay devices, they're common practice within the Warcraft universe.
The Scourge was especially unique in making use of summonings and portals for optimal efficiency of resources, and that was in the Third War.

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
EXPLAIN TO ME THE REASONSSSS
The people crying for reasons are minority and that doesn't sell.

The written material to explain that is way too expensive, when you make a cost / value comparison.

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
You all look like this to me! (Mostly in reference to the alternate scenario)

https://youtu.be/U5pBZKj1VnA?t=1006
Didn't watch the video but the thumbnail looks hella cool

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
I think elves suck

Where's their cookie?
Dunno go back to 1945 and ask the Japanese

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
But if I am looking for a competent war story, this kind of it just happens because we think it would be cool for it to happen, and screw the prior lore kind of presentation is not something that I can accept.
I don't think you ever played the Warcraft RTS games.
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  #41  
Old 11-06-2017, 07:59 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Gotcha. It was as you said, you don't care. Well, I hope you enjoy yourself with this. I guess somebody has to.
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  #42  
Old 11-06-2017, 08:24 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by Jon Targaryen View Post
Never going to happen. For the same reason it didn't happen the times you mentioned.

Someone on the BlizzardWatch podcast theorized that this expansion could be a prelude to ending the faction conflict permanently. Not sure how I would feel about that. I thought we were done with this is MoP but apparently not.
I know it won't happen, but that's the only logical way to end this cycle.

But the cycle will repeat, we know why: if the Horde won, the Alliance would be crushed. So, the Alliance is fated to win and spare the Horde, because they are the "hero faction". Again and again and again.
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  #43  
Old 11-06-2017, 08:32 AM
Sa'danak Sa'danak is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Gotcha. It was as you said, you don't care. Well, I hope you enjoy yourself with this. I guess somebody has to.
Considering the reputation you had in the past you're being remarkably patient with someone whose entire argument is "I liek thing, therefore it gudd story" with the occasional standby in "Cry sum mor".

Honestly this has been a remarkably civil faction debate compared to the past ones i was around for. I'm certainly only planning on addressing people with an actual argument in future in hopes it stays that way.
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Old 11-06-2017, 08:49 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Why is this named B4F?
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Yeah but where would this forum be if not for people speculating endlessly about things Blizzard doesn't give a shit about
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SoL: 20 something know it alls telling other 20 something know it alls they know everything.
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #45  
Old 11-06-2017, 08:57 AM
TerrorhoofMayo TerrorhoofMayo is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I've heard some people say they want the Horde to be less like bloodthirsty monsters and more like Conan. The problem?



Conan is absolutely a bloodthirsty monster. People don't always seem to understand that.
Arnold Conan is very different from original Conan.
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Old 11-06-2017, 09:38 AM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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I just find the faction war nonsense tired and repetitive - I mean, it's basically Cataclysm 2.0; it also just makes me laugh that the Horde, a society based around respect for life, nature, honor, etc - is willing to throw Sylvanas fucking Windrunner in the driver's seat.

This is a woman who's very existence goes against nature and life. A woman who builds death camps for humans and raises the dead and uses Val'kyr as her own personal rez squad.

And yet they seem willing to follow her unquestioningly because she shouted FOR THE HORDE during battle.

If the faction war was done properly and interesting rather then "old hatreds that have not been present in years 2.0" it would be a good thing. But it feels so. damn. stale.
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Fuck your dumb gamergate shit I'd rather be pegged by Sylvanas than read it.
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Just remember, the Alliance is only ever allowed to passively defend itself against the Horde, and Taurajo was Azeroth's equivalent of the Holocaust.
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  #47  
Old 11-06-2017, 09:49 AM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
You sound like a very optimistic person. How do you do it?
I got most of my complaints out of my system, and so can focus more on what I want to see rather than my past grievances.
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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
Embrace the shadows. I'd recommend reading Krakhed's posts on Void and Light theories, he really seems to hit spot on regarding the writers' perspective.

When you can follow the design decisions of the writers seamlessly and thoroughly, you stop being frustrated by future decisions because you know what's to come.
Well, so long as the faction war doesn't get in the way. I've got only the faintest impression of why those design decisions are made. This expansion definitely seems to have Lovecraftian undertones, but it seems they finally learned from Cataclysm in regards to that. I'd even go so far to say that what we're seeing here is their attempt to do Cataclysm right.

Now, while I'm a bit iffy as to what they learned from the faction war, I can already see signs of what they learned for their portrayal of the Void and Old Gods. They don't seem to be using the Twilight Cultists here at all. They said Azshara will be in it, but there's no emphasis on her. They've given us prophecies in the form of riddles to keep us guessing, but nothing has been outright stated.

They seem to actually be going with the subtle angle this time, and that pleases me so long as they can pull off a proper buildup of rising dread. And not remove all responsibility from the factions, which is the problem with "madness".
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Old 11-06-2017, 10:09 AM
Patrick_C Patrick_C is offline

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Originally Posted by Jon Targaryen View Post
Someone on the BlizzardWatch podcast theorized that this expansion could be a prelude to ending the faction conflict permanently. Not sure how I would feel about that. I thought we were done with this is MoP but apparently not.
To quote you, "never going to happen, for the same reasons it didn't happen before".

Even if they do come put and say "this is The Faction War To End All Faction Wars", a couple years later BlizzCon will be "You know the core of Wacraft is Orcs versus Humans, AND WE'RE BRINGING THAT BACK, YEAH!"

This is about the third turn of this circle.

Last edited by Patrick_C; 11-06-2017 at 10:12 AM..
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  #49  
Old 11-06-2017, 10:40 AM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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Originally Posted by Patrick_C View Post
To quote you, "never going to happen, for the same reasons it didn't happen before".

Even if they do come put and say "this is The Faction War To End All Faction Wars", a couple years later BlizzCon will be "You know the core of Wacraft is Orcs versus Humans, AND WE'RE BRINGING THAT BACK, YEAH!"

This is about the third turn of this circle.
Well, this expansion is literally Cataclysm 2.0. The world has been dealt a potentially lifethreatening blow, but this time there's no huge fucking dragon flying around. An unpopular Warchief has been appointed by the previous one and will most certainly spark off the conflict, but this one knows how to keep her mouth shut. And presumably the other leaders don't want a repeat of Garrosh. There's going to be Old God influence, but nothing screaming and babbling in your face. There's going to be a Faction War, but the Alliance will strike some major blows.

The real question is if they've learned enough to make it an enjoyable story this time around, and not just another incident for everyone to spit venom over. The Horde needs to feel justified in their actions, and players will do some of that work to find some explanation, but it needs to be properly shown ingame that they're not just reverting to Warcraft 2's Horde again.

That kind of shit alienates players who want to feel like they're fighting for their people, and not just trying to murder everyone in blue. It forces them to muster up enthusiasm instead of building it naturally. It exhausts their hype reserves until they finally couldn't care less.
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  #50  
Old 11-06-2017, 10:46 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Why is this named B4F?
B(attle) 4/for A(zeroth).
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