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  #26  
Old 04-02-2018, 08:25 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
In a more believable Warcraft, either the Horde would be in no position to beat the Alliance in conventional warfare from their lack of infrastructure when compared (the Horde has what, some genocide victims and Trolls in mudhuts) or would have been crushed already.
This argument does not make much sense, because in a more believable and consistent Warcraft;

1) The Horde would retain its industrial themes and infrastructure it had lost for Warcraft III to better fit the "noble savage" theme.

2) The nations of the East would be damaged far more from the Second War. No Ironforge was never taken retcon, Dalaran sacked twice, Northeron and Quel'Thalas burned to the ground, incredible loss of life and infrastructure.

3) The human nations would be further weakened and divided by infighting and corruption.

4) If Warcraft Adventures were taken into equation, Thrall would be far more merciless, more like what Doomhammer is in modern lore (not so treacherous as the Warcraft II Doomhammer, but still a merciless warrior who has no qualms waging war to secure his people a new land to live in).

5) The Night Elves would be far more reminiscent to the typical dark elves, ie more horror-like, tribal, savage, living in cavernous fortress holdings (whereas the High Elves would remain what they were in Warcraft II, moon-themed sylvan/wood elves, basically whan the Night Elves are now), which means they would realistically never throw their lot with the Alliance, either independent or, as Blizzard seemingly planned early on (1999/2000), Horde affiliated.

6) The geography would be significantly different from anything seen in Warcraft III and especially World of Warcraft, which means there'd be a ton of changes to strategic landscape.

Last edited by Marthen; 04-02-2018 at 08:29 AM..
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  #27  
Old 04-02-2018, 11:11 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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1) The Horde would retain its industrial themes and infrastructure it had lost for Warcraft III to better fit the "noble savage" theme.
No Bilgewater Cartel?
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  #28  
Old 04-02-2018, 01:38 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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I just always wanted gritty and realistic storytelling. Most people may aspire to good or what they consider to be good but most of the time they fall short and the world is a mess. I am not a nihilist, I am of the opinion that he world is a shithole but we still should fight for it.

How does this translate into Warcraft? Both factions do what they think is right, extremely rarely in war do people think that "oh jeez, these people who we are in a mortal struggle with have a good point, lets join them." You know, my side right or wrong. And in war many people are out for themselves, exploiting the more honorable kind to get what they want. Mistakes are made, innocents die, misunderstandings and escalations all over the place... It is not all grim though either, sometimes the grunts get fed up and frag the corrupt (and the not-so-corrupt too) leadership and a capable and compassionate leader arises out of the chaos to turn things around. Just make it realistic and interesting.

For example have Alliance occupy Orgrimmar after Garrosh fell, the Horde feel betrayed, maybe the Horde squad gets arrested, killed even. Later the remainder of the Horde fights the Alliance back, there is a revolt in Orgrimmar. Maybe the war restarts, if it ever stopped, and this time the Alliance gets trounced. Keep us guessing.
I think the concept of a victory that does not end with the total annihilation or expulsion of the enemy is interesting, that is why I like the occupation idea so much. It allows for new kinds of questing, the Horde run around sabotaging things behind Alliance back and the Alliance are doing counter-espionage operations...

Not that Blizz will ever make anything close to that good in the future, but a guy can dream, and move on, mostly move on.
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  #29  
Old 04-02-2018, 03:57 PM
Patrick_C Patrick_C is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
This argument does not make much sense, because in a more believable and consistent Warcraft;

stuff would happen
The "consistency with prior lore" argument is a bit flawed, though, because in the end, where does one draw the line of "prior lore"? You seem to want to do it just before WCIII. Other people might want to draw the line at Vanilla. The Burning Legion didn't seem to be a thing before RoC. Should it be ignored then? And so on and so forth.

I believe that Cacofonix's point was more about things not running by rule of cool nor being constrained by gameplay mechanics instead of devotion to previously established Lore.
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  #30  
Old 04-02-2018, 04:12 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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The "consistency with prior lore" argument is a bit flawed, though, because in the end, where does one draw the line of "prior lore"? You seem to want to do it just before WCIII. Other people might want to draw the line at Vanilla. The Burning Legion didn't seem to be a thing before RoC. Should it be ignored then? And so on and so forth.

I believe that Cacofonix's point was more about things not running by rule of cool nor being constrained by gameplay mechanics instead of devotion to previously established Lore.
Consistency is consistency. The moment you have have to choose between iterations later from the original one, there is already no consistency. And inconsistency/retcon does not equal expansion. The Legion is not mentioned explicitly in Warcraft II, but there is nothing contradicting its existence, therefore, the concept in its self is not an inconsistency. Now, its modern iteration is, but damn, its modern iteration is even inconsistent with that of Warcraft III.

And the second part of your argument falls apart when you realize that most changes from the original iterations had to with gameplay design and gameplay restrictions.
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  #31  
Old 04-02-2018, 05:32 PM
Patrick_C Patrick_C is offline

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Maybe the word "verisimilitude" fits the situation better. I would like a world that has some semblance of internal rules and causality, but I don't want the past iterations of the franchise to be set in stone. I happen to enjoy a lot of later lore that would be impossible if that happened. But that's a question of taste, I guess.
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  #32  
Old 04-02-2018, 07:17 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by Patrick_C View Post
Maybe the word "verisimilitude" fits the situation better. I would like a world that has some semblance of internal rules and causality, but I don't want the past iterations of the franchise to be set in stone.
The world of Tolkien, for instance, doesn't have that and it's one of the greatest works of fantasy.

How people see heroes and villains is skewed by preconceptions towards the characters. In Tolkien, for example, if the Elves all obliterated Morgoth's forces every single time, completely slaughtering them all, no one would ever call them villains. It would take, however, one complete defeat in Beleriand to call Morgoth a villain.

People call for internal rules and causality when they strongly identify with one of the character groups, because the real world has gone past geographical expansion and there are laws that approach what is "allowed" in war.

You want the justice that you'd see in the real world.

When fantasy simulates real-world geopolitics and bureaucracy, it becomes the least credible it can ever be.
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  #33  
Old 04-02-2018, 08:12 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
This argument does not make much sense, because in a more believable and consistent Warcraft;

1) The Horde would retain its industrial themes and infrastructure it had lost for Warcraft III to better fit the "noble savage" theme.

2) The nations of the East would be damaged far more from the Second War. No Ironforge was never taken retcon, Dalaran sacked twice, Northeron and Quel'Thalas burned to the ground, incredible loss of life and infrastructure.

3) The human nations would be further weakened and divided by infighting and corruption.

4) If Warcraft Adventures were taken into equation, Thrall would be far more merciless, more like what Doomhammer is in modern lore (not so treacherous as the Warcraft II Doomhammer, but still a merciless warrior who has no qualms waging war to secure his people a new land to live in).

5) The Night Elves would be far more reminiscent to the typical dark elves, ie more horror-like, tribal, savage, living in cavernous fortress holdings (whereas the High Elves would remain what they were in Warcraft II, moon-themed sylvan/wood elves, basically whan the Night Elves are now), which means they would realistically never throw their lot with the Alliance, either independent or, as Blizzard seemingly planned early on (1999/2000), Horde affiliated.

6) The geography would be significantly different from anything seen in Warcraft III and especially World of Warcraft, which means there'd be a ton of changes to strategic landscape.
Come on, you should know I'm not dealing with protoWarcraft. I'm dealing with the Warcraft we did get.

Anyway, the Horde by TFT's end was built from whatever Orcs could fit onto looted ships, a bunch of Trolls in mudhuts, and a bunch of cowmen losing a war against centaurs all squatting in what was more or less Australia. The Orcs in particular had not too long ago lost a genocidal war that included their mother-world blowing up. The Alliance in contrast had at least Stormwind as a superpower before WC3 happened which surely would have sat pretty with Ironforge (the same Ironforge that builds firearms and Steam Tanks) during the apocalypse.
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  #34  
Old 04-03-2018, 01:10 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
Come on, you should know I'm not dealing with protoWarcraft. I'm dealing with the Warcraft we did get.

Anyway, the Horde by TFT's end was built from whatever Orcs could fit onto looted ships, a bunch of Trolls in mudhuts, and a bunch of cowmen losing a war against centaurs all squatting in what was more or less Australia. The Orcs in particular had not too long ago lost a genocidal war that included their mother-world blowing up. The Alliance in contrast had at least Stormwind as a superpower before WC3 happened which surely would have sat pretty with Ironforge (the same Ironforge that builds firearms and Steam Tanks) during the apocalypse.
Then this entire discussion is redundant and pointless already. You are basically complaining about some subsequent effects when the whole premise is flawed already to begin with.
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  #35  
Old 04-03-2018, 03:04 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Then this entire discussion is redundant and pointless already. You are basically complaining about some subsequent effects when the whole premise is flawed already to begin with.
He wants Warcraft III to happen and at the same time doesn't want the peace treaty that's the very core of it.
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  #36  
Old 04-03-2018, 03:38 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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He wants Warcraft III to happen and at the same time doesn't want the peace treaty that's the very core of it.
It's also a bit funny that he goes "but muh Warcraft III" when discussing the state of the Eastern Kingdoms in the other thread (more specifically, how it should have been "a demon/zombie land") yet here, he completely ignores it because it is convenient to him.
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  #37  
Old 04-03-2018, 04:26 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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He wants Warcraft III to happen and at the same time doesn't want the peace treaty that's the very core of it.
And what treaty was that?

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It's also a bit funny that he goes "but muh Warcraft III" when discussing the state of the Eastern Kingdoms in the other thread (more specifically, how it should have been "a demon/zombie land") yet here, he completely ignores it because it is convenient to him.
I'm still waiting for you to tell me how the Alliance of Stormwind wouldn't be the stronger force between itself and the Horde of Orgrimmar from TFT's ending to Vanilla's start (being generous) the point that Horde could never win a conventional war without the Alliance losing on purpose.

Last edited by Cacofonix; 04-03-2018 at 04:32 AM..
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  #38  
Old 04-03-2018, 04:49 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I'm still waiting for you to tell me how the Alliance of Stormwind wouldn't be the stronger force between itself and the Horde of Orgrimmar as of TFT's ending to Vanilla's start (being generous) the point that Horde could never win a conventional war without the Alliance losing on purpose.
I guess my previous post explaining that this whole premise is flawed to begin with and that any discussion about realism is therefore redundant is a too much for you to comprehend, Galdus.

But sure, you can go and cry "but muh Vanilla and TFT" while pretending that Stormwind that was without its king, plagued by a civil conflict with the Defias, and unable to deal even with the remnants of the Blackrock Clan besieging its eastern territories would have crushed the Horde that had no problem wiping the full might of the Kul Tiras Navy just a few years prior.
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  #39  
Old 04-03-2018, 04:59 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
And what treaty was that?
The one proposed by Medivh and set to terms in Hyjal.

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Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
I'm still waiting for you to tell me how the Alliance of Stormwind wouldn't be the stronger force between itself and the Horde of Orgrimmar from TFT's ending to Vanilla's start (being generous) the point that Horde could never win a conventional war without the Alliance losing on purpose.
If there was a full-fledged war in Vanilla, yes, the Alliance would have the absolute upper hand.

Please don't mind the dreadlord.

However, the period of peace is what allowed for industrialization. The very first results of that can be seen in the Hellfire Peninsula quests and then the most prominent ones in the Doomhammer, in Wrath.

The only reason there were so many years without capitals being razed on either side is because the game didn't have the capability to portray that. That, and devs who were scared of breaking the status quo.
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  #40  
Old 04-03-2018, 08:13 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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The only reason there were so many years without capitals being razed on either side is because the game didn't have the capability to portray that. That, and devs who were scared of breaking the status quo.
As well they should have been. We've seen already how delicate balance issues can get when you try to force a second act "oh, the 'heroes' are at their lowest point" moment on the Alliance, only to suddenly remember that the "villains" they're supposed to beat at the end are a playable faction. Cataclysm and MoP should have proved that and they seem to be doubling down.

I'll also say it again: getting beat down and not being able to stop it isn't fun gameplay. If your story pitch to me is "I get to hold you down and punch you and you don't get to fight back", don't expect me to want to participate.

For the Horde that seems to be happening on a moral level. There ARE villains in the faction war as I said. That's not a moral position, it's evident by how the writers have framed the factions and the characters leading them. It's not a question of the actions they take, it's a question of how the writers clearly want the audience to feel about them. SHOULD there be? Well, that's a different question, but one that I'll answer with this: Blizzard needs to stop using a highly idealized version of World War II as a model, especially with an MMO. I don't want to play as the French in 1940, and I'm pretty sure most Horde players don't want to play as the Japanese in China. (Why do you think no one makes games like that?) It's time for something different.
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  #41  
Old 04-03-2018, 09:13 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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See kids, and that is why when you create an RTS universe that attracts a certain kind of fans, you do not switch to a heroic RPG that attracts a completely different sort of fans. You will get a big red "DOES NOT COMPUTE" each time anyone firmly in the group B attempts to communicate with someone firmly in the group A.
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  #42  
Old 04-03-2018, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
and I'm pretty sure most Horde players don't want to play as the Japanese in China. (Why do you think no one makes games like that?) It's time for something different.
Oh well, you're in for a treat. Double time.
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  #43  
Old 04-03-2018, 07:53 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
But sure, you can go and cry "but muh Vanilla and TFT" while pretending that Stormwind that was without its king, plagued by a civil conflict with the Defias, and unable to deal even with the remnants of the Blackrock Clan besieging its eastern territories would have crushed the Horde
Doubt the Horde would still win. And when the Alliance gets Varian back?

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that had no problem wiping the full might of the Kul Tiras Navy just a few years prior.
Theres's more to the Alliance than Kul'tiras.

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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
The one proposed by Medivh and set to terms in Hyjal.
What about it? Jaina would have no authority to speak for Stormwind or Ironforge at the least. Kul'tiras is iffy at best.
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  #44  
Old 04-03-2018, 09:02 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Theres's more to the Alliance than Kul'tiras.
At that point, there was only Kul'tiras and Theramore.
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  #45  
Old 04-03-2018, 09:17 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Stormwind (which had recovered into a superpower by WC3's start)? Ironforge? Jaina has no authority in either of them so her being a shameless traitor to her father, homeland, and species shouldn't have any pull with either of them.

Last edited by Cacofonix; 04-03-2018 at 09:22 PM..
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  #46  
Old 04-04-2018, 06:04 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Stormwind (which had recovered into a superpower by WC3's start)? Ironforge? Jaina has no authority in either of them so her being a shameless traitor to her father, homeland, and species shouldn't have any pull with either of them.
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  #47  
Old 04-04-2018, 08:25 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Inform me of what's unbelievable about Stormwind being a superpower (compared to the rest of the non-Scourged world anyway). They were already among the greatest of the East before the Orcs came around, the Horde was quick to invade the rest of the East so I imagine Stormwind wasn't too filled with the green men to throw its infrastructure too far down the drain, and they had support from fellow Easterners after the war.
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  #48  
Old 04-04-2018, 12:06 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
Inform me of what's unbelievable about Stormwind being a superpower (compared to the rest of the non-Scourged world anyway). They were already among the greatest of the East before the Orcs came around, the Horde was quick to invade the rest of the East so I imagine Stormwind wasn't too filled with the green men to throw its infrastructure too far down the drain, and they had support from fellow Easterners after the war.
"Superpower", as opposed to "Regional Power" implies the ability to project power and influence around the globe. Stormwind's recovery and internal political chaos precluded that at least until Varian's reign.
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  #49  
Old 04-08-2018, 11:58 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Stormwind would have been a decent regional power by the time of vanilla, given that it had...

uh...

Five years of recovery?

I don't even know what the timeline for it is any more.

Ironforge would have been more powerful than Stormwind, but something tells me the dwarves have never been too keen on having a navy.

And if you had verisimilitude, the orcs would have had less amount of time building up their industrial base if they even kept the theme after crossing over to Kalimdor.

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So the British, the Mongols, the Romans, the Chinese, the Spanish and even the French are, by that definition, within the greatest villains of human history?
Yes, to all of them.

Name a people, and I will tell you they are villains. We can quibble about the rankings, but the fact they were all villains is indisputable in my view.
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #50  
Old 04-09-2018, 06:24 AM
Temo Temo is offline

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There is a reason this quote exists
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