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Old 09-17-2013, 03:09 PM
Valtheria Valtheria is offline

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Here's the reply that was on the Taran Zhu thread. I feel like I'm baiting something bad again by making this, though.

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Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
Past the landing zone in the Jade Forest, the Alliance doesn't do any enslaving. I'll give you the statue, but so what about it being irreplaceable? What makes it irreplaceable? That it's a statue? That's hardly a reason. It can take centuries to build a town (constant growth and rebuilding) or longer to grow a forest. The Sha are defeatable and are apparently defeated for all time now after this raid. The damage to the Vale apparently goes away too (the water keeps flowing and growing in the Valley of Four Winds). The Horde has caused untold damage to Azeroth since it arrived, causing the deaths of millions of humans and thousands of dwarves and Kaldorei, tens to hundreds of thousands of High elves, occupied lands they know isn't theirs.
The statue is irreplaceable for the same reason a sacred tree in Ashenvale might be irreplaceable.

You can defeat the Sha, but you can defeat Arthas. That something can be defeated doesn't make it harmless. Hell, the Horde was defeated in war twice now (five if you count the various iterations not connected to the Doomhammer/Thrall/Garrosh/Vol'jin line of Warchiefs) and they still do a ton of damage when they become a threat.

Also, when Taran Zhu said what he said, he had no way of knowing the Vale's waters would return. He doesn't have the benefit of a third-person omniscient point-of-view and the Vale isn't going to heal immediately regardless of the pools' return. He is well within his rights to feel that way since he's clearly researched our history, watched his Shado-Pan and the Golden Lotus decimated by the Horde, and was nearly killed as the most sacred place in Pandaria (maybe the most sacred and place left untouched by evil on all of Azeroth) was corrupted.

Also, where are you getting these figures? Because "tens to hundreds of thousands of high elves" is more of a Scourge figure than a Horde one - Silvermoon never fell to the Horde, if I recall correctly. They're kingdom, though larger than shown in-game, could never suffer losses in those numbers unless the Elfgates fell and the lands north of the Elrendar were invaded.

Millions of humans, I will give you. Between Stormwind and the kingdoms on Lordaeron, as well as the current conflict. But the Scourge did far more damage than the Horde did - not that that's a defense, mind you, comparing the Horde to the Scourge doesn't exactly make it look "good". It's about perspective, however. The Horde and everything brought by it to Pandaria is the Pandaren's Scourge.

And, honestly, it seems like more Kaldorei have died to the cataclysm and the War of Shifting Sands in their recent history than they've died to the Horde. But they do die to the Horde a lot and that is a valid grievance; I just don't see it as equivalent to the pandaren because of how low the night elves' numbers are said (perhaps implied, must find citation) to be due to their stagnation after the Sundering.

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Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
The yaungol and Mantid are native threats which makes the Shado-pan look pretty bad since it wasn't the fact those forces were beating the Shado-pan, but that they were doing it before they were scheduled. The yaungol and Mantid attack on a schedule... and it caught the Shado-pan with their pants down. The temples apparently can and have come under attack before. By the Saurok (the Red Crane), the Mantid (White(?) Ox) and presumably the other two temples as well. They aren't strangers to conflicts. They are 'defiled' when those attacks happen, so no loss there.
Some saurok and some mantid are not equivalent to full-scale Sha outbreaks (major Sha in particular being rare and extremely dangerous) and the deaths of those temples' acolytes. Just because they are used to conflict (something that the Alliance and Horde's races were no stranger to before the Dark Portal) doesn't mean that this isn't devastating. Defending your people, culture, and sacred sites and experiencing the near-decimation of your people, culture, and sacred sites are entirely different things.

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Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
Alliance towns have been destroyed. An entire country cast down into ruin and most of the population made to flee. Hillsbrad, Southshore and Dun Garok wiped out completely in recent times, and one kingdom wiped out, millions killed, and other lands attacked and devastated in older times by the Horde. The Kaldorei have been facing a ten year occupation of their own land and have recently faced a concentrated effort to take all of their land, have seen beloved forests cut down, hundreds or more of their citizens killed. Theramore completely obliterated, Northwatch literally melted off the planet and tens of thousands of soldiers and sailors and likely up to hundreds of thousands of citizens killed by the Horde. Just because we don't see the many towns and villages and cities in game doesn't mean that the ones in the game are the only ones that exist.
Dun Garok and Northwatch were military outposts and I doubt that "tens of thousands" of ANYTHING could exist in either of them when the former was a few out-of-kingdom dwarves and the latter was mostly manned by Tirasian navy personnel (minority in the Alliance overall) and Theramore marines (who are the refugees of the plague and not incredibly numerous).

Northwatch was also rebuilt stupidly fast in Tides of War, so it's pretty much the same as the pandaren's temples by your logic. It's rebuilt, so the lives lost and/or destroyed don't count.

Hillsbrad was already at war for years before its decimation, horrific though it was, and was made up of Lordaeronians who refused to leave after the Scourge - not a potentially high figure given how utterly the plague and Arthas's troops ravaged Lordaeron.

I'd put those losses at a couple hundred, with a little over one hundred surviving refugees, as an estimate. That they had issues with the Forsaken can be summed up as "The Forsaken weren't that large from the start and couldn't put their full might on Hillsbrad." Just an estimate, though. Just as valid as your "hundreds of thousands in two to three years" estimate.

The Kaldorei have been facing four years of occupation at best, unless you think Durotar belongs to them (laughable) or that the orcs' and humans' unwitting desecration of their forests is "occupation". Theramore's citizens were mostly evacuated (of course, SoO implies that they didn't get away so you might have me on the losses) and wasn't amazingly large.

And your assessment of in-game scale vs. actual scale applies to the Pandaren as well. Which means that, if we are to count things we DON'T know, have no real measure of how many pandaren died any more than we have a measure of how many Alliance have died.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
It's been the Horde from the Dark Portal times to now in WoW that have inflicted almost continuous damage and loss of life to the Alliance. A good part of the population of the Alliance has been forced to move and fight in wars they don;ty want or understand, but are forced to fight them for survival.
The Horde has existed as a threat to the Alliance for thirty years now, only six of which it existed as the heartless, bloodthirsty army it was, fourteen of which it spent in captivity, seven of which it wasn't actively hostile, and two of which it resumed active aggression.

So that's eight of thirty years. But the Horde IS efficient at killing when it wants to be, so the casualties are plausible, but "continuous damage" isn't exactly true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
Overall, Pandaria has gotten off lightly. It's survived with most of it's problems ending up being solves (Sha gone, the corruptions vanishing if what I hear about in the raid being true), the Mantid and mogu, yaungol and Saurok being controlled, plus the continent has been opened to there outside so it can expand economically selling food and booze and silk/cloth. Was Pandaria hurt? Yes. Worse than the Alliance? Hell no. It's only claim is that all of that happened within a year.
Being able to rebuild doesn't mean they didn't suffer or their suffering is equal. The pandaren can rebuild and reopen trade as much as the Alliance can with the Horde gone because, like the pandaren, the Alliance has all but destroyed every threat despite its suffering.

Count it: the Legion, the Scourge, the Twilight's Hammer, the Horde, all of them caused the Alliance a lot of grief, but does their being defeated and the Alliance's ability to rebuild invalidate that? No, it doesn't. Like the pandaren, they can't bring back their dead (well, they can, we'd all prefer they not) and they can't forget the pain they've endured.

That it happened in a year is the truly devastating part of it. The Horde has essentially been as destructive to Pandaria as it was to Stormwind, but in even less time and with an even greater population. Garrosh is no better than Blackhand the Destroyer and only marginally worse than Orgrim Doomhammer.
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Old 09-18-2013, 12:22 PM
Reignac Reignac is offline

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I think you're one of my favorite posters now.
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You know, when I put the "i hate all of you" tag in threads, I'm not trying to be funny or cute. With a handful of exceptions, I really do hate almost everybody here.

It's one thing to have problems and voice your concerns, but when you endlessly bitch day in and day out about the same tired old shit, it honestly makes me wonder why you are even here. Generally when somebody doesn't like something, they stop caring about it.

And on that note, SoL is a forum I no longer enjoy. So, I'm done here. And I genuinely think the people who have absolutely nothing at all positive to say about the game and, the people whose posts are composed entirely of whining, really consider leaving (or at least sticking to non-WoW sections). Because if you truly get no enjoyment out of WoW, then why are you here?

With that said, goodbye.
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Old 09-18-2013, 12:35 PM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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Garrosh is no better than Blackhand the Destroyer and only marginally worse than Orgrim Doomhammer.
Minor nitpick just here, everything else is fine.

in ToD even Blackhand is said to have been the one who originally recruited the ogres into the Horde and had ordered Doomhammer to recruit the trolls (this was shown in a Doomhammer flashback IIRC).

By all accounts and purposes, Blackhand was BETTER than Garrosh.

At least he knew the value of other races.
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Old 09-18-2013, 01:30 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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And, honestly, it seems like more Kaldorei have died to the cataclysm and the War of Shifting Sands in their recent history than they've died to the Horde. But they do die to the Horde a lot and that is a valid grievance; I just don't see it as equivalent to the pandaren because of how low the night elves' numbers are said (perhaps implied, must find citation) to be due to their stagnation after the Sundering.
This was never said or implied anywhere. It's fanon. It's always been fanon. So has the whole stagnation bit. Even Blizzard doesn't support it, because it's never been said by them. So has the whole slow reproduction bit. All the men were not sleeping, because all the men are not and were not druids.

Loreology said it's probable that the Night Elves took a bigger hit than any other race in the Third War against the Legion, which means it took a bigger hit than Lordearon, the humans, the High Elves, all of it, because it was part of the Legion invasion.

The old manuals and WoW website said that "countless" Night Elves lived in Darnassus.

Beyond that, Night Elves don't really make a big deal out of dying in battle, or death in general when it comes from external forces. I think Velen's short story made mention of this, and that when Deathwing attacked, it said the Night Elves didn't flinch.

So, I doubt we would see them say how much was lost in general, and I doubt they overly "care" as long as the conflict is over and they stay out of Ashenvale.

That being said, the Orcs DID attack Ashenvale, and destroy much of it, and Ashenvale IS supposedly a sacred forest blessed by Elune, with multiple confirmed creatures, such as some of the night sabers, being guided and influenced and evolved through Elune personally taking interest in them, so yeah, the Vale and Ashenvale forest are pretty heavily comparable and it's wrong for Zhu to not take that into account when he said what he said.

On an interesting note... The Night Elves are apparently in the middle of some big political uprising and tensions now that I reread the Night Elf page on Warcraft's page. It can't be the Highborne, that's a social issue, not a political one, and it's post Stormrage, and therefore post Fandral..

Doubt it will ever be explained.

The Pandearan haven't suffered all that much. If anything, the Sha have been completely purged and they are, for the first time, allowed to live without holding things in. In fact, wasn't it said in Shadows of the Horde that Huojin was heavily frowned on, and that any emotion, even hugging people, was just as bad?

If anything, the Panda's have GAINED more than anyone. They are free of the mists. They are free of the Sha. They are, depending on if another queen is around, free of the Mantid swarms. They were not destroyed by the Mogu who resurged.

Last edited by Ruinshin; 09-18-2013 at 01:35 PM..
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Old 09-18-2013, 01:34 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Originally Posted by Ferlion View Post
On an interesting note... The Night Elves are apparently in the middle of some big political uprising and tensions now that I reread the Night Elf page on Warcraft's page. It can't be the Highborne, that's a social issue, not a political one, and it's post Stormrage, and therefore post Fandral..

Doubt it will ever be explained.
Quote:
Now, amid political turmoil, natural disasters, and violent Horde incursions into night elven lands, Malfurion and Tyrande are focused on leading their people into Azeroth’s uncertain future, just as they have done in ages past.
This bit? Couldn't it refer to the Druids of the Flame?
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Old 09-18-2013, 01:37 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
This bit? Couldn't it refer to the Druids of the Flame?
No. Druids are not members of Darnassian government. They are members of the Cenarion Circle, and by default, that takes precedence over Darnassus. It's something Blizzard has been pretty heavy about pushing. It was the whole reason the Circle was created. To stop threats without Government intervening.

More, that isn't really a political problem either, is it? I mean, it's not like they were out recruiting Night Elves and turning them against Malfurion and Tyrande while trying to promote new leaders to further their goals. They just straight up defected and joined the enemy. It's not like things were made particularly tense in Darnassus.

Last edited by Ruinshin; 09-18-2013 at 01:39 PM..
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Old 09-18-2013, 01:54 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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I think it's supposed to be a reference to the things you learn while filling the vials with moonwell water, which would make Smoke right.
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