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  #1276  
Old 08-01-2013, 11:06 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
Has anyone ever tried to compile all of the military rankings so far amongst the races and factions?
We don't know. Ask Sean. Be a dick.
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  #1277  
Old 08-01-2013, 03:01 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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We don't know. Ask Sean. Be a dick.
I've asked that man many military questions and got nothing. I'm hoping he's talking to the cdev so we'll get a clearer list some day.
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #1278  
Old 08-01-2013, 06:15 PM
Revenant Revenant is offline

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Great, late to the actual lore discussion.

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
Blackrock banners?
I have two possible answers:

As Warlock could tell you better (look at his preview screenshots), Warcraft III was initially much different, and both orcs and humans had multiple Warcraft II factions working together, each represented by one or more buildings.

-or-

Thrall's Horde had a lot of Blackrock orcs in it that he rallied and convinced to leave the main clan. There was somehow a giant orc city in nearby Alterac.

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Checking WoWpedia and they say he's the last king of the empire.
I know it is in the RPG, where king (though looking like a spiderlord) is above spiderlord and queen. Presumably underkings are under the king.

Sean often only knows what we know, and if we do not know it from a canon source, then it does not exist. He is just one more pair of eyes looking.

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What's the difference between these guys?
I have a question: What is the difference between Lord Hewell and Lord Marley? Why does Genn need more than one noble friend that is mentioned once and then forgotten?
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It'd be nice if they actually finally gave us things they cut or under utilized 10 years ago.
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Ten.

Years.

Last edited by Revenant; 08-01-2013 at 06:30 PM..
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  #1279  
Old 08-01-2013, 06:23 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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I can probably just google but in wow what's the difference between enlisted ranks and officer ranks?
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SoL: 20 something know it alls telling other 20 something know it alls they know everything.
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #1280  
Old 08-02-2013, 10:17 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I've been thinking, since it gets brought up a lot...

Just how exactly do people imagine the Windrunner sister reunion to go? Is it really all that it will be cracked up to be?

Personally I don't care much for any of the Windrunner characters since they feel like carbon copies of the same insane-o elf.
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  #1281  
Old 08-02-2013, 10:19 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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I would imagine Alleria (if she isn't changed) and Veressa (assuming she hates Sylvanas) to gang up on Sylvanas. They go their separate ways and that's about it.
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  #1282  
Old 08-02-2013, 11:20 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by Revenant View Post
I have a question: What is the difference between Lord Hewell and Lord Marley? Why does Genn need more than one noble friend that is mentioned once and then forgotten?
The difference is in lands they hold. Hewell is from the East, Marley is from the North - originally, his lands were supposed to be cut, and not Crowley's. Where exactly are his lands is up to debate. I believe he controlled the patch of land between two mountain reaches, the "gates" to Hillsbrad Foothils from Silverpine.
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  #1283  
Old 08-02-2013, 02:56 PM
Revenant Revenant is offline

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
The difference is in lands they hold. Hewell is from the East, Marley is from the North - originally, his lands were supposed to be cut, and not Crowley's. Where exactly are his lands is up to debate. I believe he controlled the patch of land between two mountain reaches, the "gates" to Hillsbrad Foothils from Silverpine.
We never got that much info on who holds what, so at least those two lesser nobles seem like superfluous characters. The others as well. Since they just show up with a fancy title, why do we care about them? Yes, the same can be said about many characters, but Gilneas's story seems to care about the nobility. Well, maybe if worgen had more than one dedicated zone.
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It'd be nice if they actually finally gave us things they cut or under utilized 10 years ago.
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Ten.

Years.
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  #1284  
Old 08-02-2013, 03:47 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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I felt it might be worthwhile to point out that I just posted a big thing about the Zandalari narrative throughout the WoW game on PW:R. I'd appreciate any input you all might have.
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  #1285  
Old 08-02-2013, 05:16 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
I've been thinking, since it gets brought up a lot...

Just how exactly do people imagine the Windrunner sister reunion to go? Is it really all that it will be cracked up to be?

Personally I don't care much for any of the Windrunner characters since they feel like carbon copies of the same insane-o elf.
Sylvanas whines about undeath being a curse. Her sisters feel sorry for her and immediately forget all that's done.

Sylvanas might also kill and raise them so they can be together in undeath, and they promptly become Sylvanas's left and right hand maidens.
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #1286  
Old 08-02-2013, 06:05 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
Sylvanas whines about undeath being a curse. Her sisters feel sorry for her and immediately forget all that's done.

Sylvanas might also kill and raise them so they can be together in undeath, and they promptly become Sylvanas's left and right hand maidens.
I think it's a fun thought experiment to imagine the three Windrunner sisters sitting down for tea (I've always had a particular fan-art image in my head that would exist if I had any artistic ability) but admittedly it feels more like a fan-fiction trap than a real piece of narrative for WoW as a whole.

As for my take: Sylvanas hates the living. Vereesa hates what the elves have become and knows Sylvanas is a monster. Alleria might come back confused about what's happened, but ultimately she'd never join the Horde and would probably attempt to rein in Vereesa (for the sake of fighting smarter, not harder), which may or may not work.

I don't think it's a matter of whether or not Alleria could kill Sylvanas (though I understand Sylvie is the better marksman); it's more a question of whether that death would actually take and whether Alleria could bring herself to kill her suffering sister multiple times.
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  #1287  
Old 08-02-2013, 06:15 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by MisterCrow View Post
(though I understand Sylvie is the better marksman)
I believe you, but I'd like to know the source. What's that from?

(It may even be in Tides of Darkness. I don't remember.)
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  #1288  
Old 08-02-2013, 06:23 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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It's from Edge of Night.
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The Alliance's three rules on faction conflict:
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2) You can't break even.
3) You can't leave the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #1289  
Old 08-02-2013, 11:18 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by Revenant View Post
We never got that much info on who holds what, so at least those two lesser nobles seem like superfluous characters.
We GOT that info. Hewell was described as one of the Eastern Lords, Marley is, undoubtedly, somewhere from the North

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Since they just show up with a fancy title, why do we care about them?
What, are you dense? Are you retarded or something? Who the hell do you think we are? We're the goddamn loremen.
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  #1290  
Old 08-03-2013, 12:07 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I believe you, but I'd like to know the source. What's that from?

(It may even be in Tides of Darkness. I don't remember.)
Source is actually non-canon now; it's the WoW RPG Manual of Monsters, in the entry on Lady Vashj.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manual of Monsters, pp. 189

(Vashj) is peerless with her magic bow (Sylvanas is the only archer who's better).
If we accept Vashj as canonically dead, and we accept the assertion that Sylvanas is a better shot, and that Vashj was in turn a better shot than Alleria or Vereesa, then yeah, Sylvanas would be better than her sisters. But this information is all non-canonical at this point since the RPGs were de-canonized.

EDIT: There IS a reference in Edge of Night that I didn't recall. On page 3, in Sylvanas' memory, it's stated she's the best archer in the family. Two sentences later, though, it mentions how very vain she is. I'll call unreliable narrator on this one.

So we've got one de-canonized assertion (likely a note made by Metzen on an editorial pass with White Wolf) and an assertion from an unreliable narrator. Without an objective comparison from somewhere, I'd say it casts doubt on whether Sylvanas is definitively a better archer than her sisters.
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Last edited by MisterCrow; 08-03-2013 at 12:20 AM..
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  #1291  
Old 08-03-2013, 12:34 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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It really is hilarious to watch the story try to reconcile Sylvanas' purported awesomeness with the question of "if she's so awesome why did she die in the first place."
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  #1292  
Old 08-03-2013, 12:40 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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It really is hilarious to watch the story try to reconcile Sylvanas' purported awesomeness with the question of "if she's so awesome why did she die in the first place."
I don't think I've ever heard anyone ask that question.

Sylvanas' death is what differentiates her from Alleria. From a character design standpoint, it's interesting to take the archetypal elf ranger badass, with her connection to the natural world and fierce loyalty to elvenkind (all points that had been covered in WC2 with Alleria), and then kill her, raise her into undeath, and pervert basically everything about her existence.

Sylvanas doesn't start being an interesting character until after she dies.

It's tantamount to arguing "if batman is so awesome why did Bane beat him?"
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  #1293  
Old 08-03-2013, 12:48 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Honestly, just the "Sylvanas is the only archer who's better" line right after the use of "peerless" reeks of RPG mechanical license, like Sylvanas' archery skill has some numerical value and Vashj is two points lower, so it's being addressed.

They could just call Vashj's skills peerless and leave it be as flavor text, but the RPG demands of such things being mathematically accounted for required that they insert a clumsy and superfluous-feeling qualifier for where Vashj's archery skill fits on some "chart" of archery skill calculations among the characters.

Incidentally, I might point out that while Sylvanas died fighting for her life and that of Quel'thalas, and has since managed to get killed again (against her will, that is), a guilt-stricken and enraged Alleria with severely clouded judgment spent years essentially trying to get herself killed in an ocean of orcish blood and came out of it alive.

So apparently even a suicidally reckless Alleria managed to keep herself alive more effectively than a Sylvanas who was trying not to die.
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  #1294  
Old 08-03-2013, 12:50 AM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Why was Alleria guilt-stricken?
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  #1295  
Old 08-03-2013, 12:55 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Honestly, just the "Sylvanas is the only archer who's better" line right after the use of "peerless" reeks of RPG mechanical license, like Sylvanas' archery skill has some numerical value and Vashj is two points lower, so it's being addressed.

They could just call Vashj's skills peerless and leave it be as flavor text, but the RPG demands of such things being mathematically accounted for required that they insert a clumsy and superfluous-feeling qualifier for where Vashj's archery skill fits on some "chart" of archery skill calculations among the characters.
I checked the stats in the book. Sylvanas's attack stats with the bow are substantially higher (like a difference of +15) than Vashj's. The terminology isn't just in there to justify the difference, because the numbers make it clear who wins in an archery contest.

Quote:
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Incidentally, I might point out that while Sylvanas died fighting for her life and that of Quel'thalas, and has since managed to get killed again (against her will, that is), a guilt-stricken and enraged Alleria with severely clouded judgment spent years essentially trying to get herself killed in an ocean of orcish blood and came out of it alive.

So apparently even a suicidally reckless Alleria managed to keep herself alive more effectively than a Sylvanas who was trying not to die.
Isn't this more of a comment over how inherently dangerous Doomhammer's Horde was in comparison to Arthas and the brand-new Scourge?
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  #1296  
Old 08-03-2013, 12:55 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
Why was Alleria guilt-stricken?
She privately blamed herself for not being there to help prevent the burning of Quel'thalas and the resultant deaths of many of her extended family members, as she was with the main Alliance force engaging the Horde elsewhere at the time.

"Survivor's remorse" sort of thing. It had her seeking out and killing any orcs she could find, and though vengeance was the most apparent reason, she was doing so recklessly and endangering herself more than necessary in the belief that if she died while slaughtering the murderers of her kin, it might in some way atone for her failure to prevent their deaths.
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  #1297  
Old 08-03-2013, 04:53 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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I asked Loreology about the strongest Windrunner, and his source was Edge of Night. Keep in mind Sylvanas was also the former Ranger-General and I don't consider that to be just a political position.
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  #1298  
Old 08-03-2013, 04:58 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Originally Posted by MisterCrow View Post
I don't think I've ever heard anyone ask that question.

Sylvanas' death is what differentiates her from Alleria. From a character design standpoint, it's interesting to take the archetypal elf ranger badass, with her connection to the natural world and fierce loyalty to elvenkind (all points that had been covered in WC2 with Alleria), and then kill her, raise her into undeath, and pervert basically everything about her existence.

Sylvanas doesn't start being an interesting character until after she dies.

It's tantamount to arguing "if batman is so awesome why did Bane beat him?"
Fojar will never say anything positive about Sylvanas. He will twist every argument just to bash the character.
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  #1299  
Old 08-03-2013, 05:27 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Fojar will never say anything positive about Sylvanas. He will twist every argument just to bash the character.
Well it's not like he's unique in that regard.

I don't often see see some other folks here say anything positive about characters they furiously hate.

Though ironically I've seen them say both positive and negative things about characters they like.
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  #1300  
Old 08-03-2013, 05:44 AM
Andrettin Andrettin is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Incidentally, I might point out that while Sylvanas died fighting for her life and that of Quel'thalas, and has since managed to get killed again (against her will, that is), a guilt-stricken and enraged Alleria with severely clouded judgment spent years essentially trying to get herself killed in an ocean of orcish blood and came out of it alive.

So apparently even a suicidally reckless Alleria managed to keep herself alive more effectively than a Sylvanas who was trying not to die.
On the other hand, orcs, having vital points, are more vulnerable to arrows than the undead are.
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