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Old 11-22-2012, 03:14 PM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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Default Siege of Orgrimmar aftermath

I was thinking about this a few weeks back with a friend over RID:

We all know that Warchief Muscle-head Meatball is going to go full out moustache twirling evil eventually and require the Alliance and the Horde rebels to raid Orgrimmar to put him down before he goes full out stupid. We also know that the Alliance eventually leaves and Orgrimmar is given back to the Horde - obviously, it's their capital.

But I keep thinking that I don't just see Varian and Thrall shaking hands and parting as bro's, here. Nor do I see them just having an informal conversation that ends with Varian saying "alright, we're gone".

The way I see it, I'd like to see some kind of treaty or agreement set up and hammered out by the Alliance leadership and the Horde rebels. Maybe at some kind of peace conference in Moonglade, sponsored by the Cenarion Circle(perfect role for Mr Neutral Malfurion!).

I just wouldn't want to see the Alliance agree to casually leave Orgrimmar with at least nothing for their trouble but dead soldiers and warm fuzzies.

I've discussed possible conditions and terms of said treaty with my friend but I'd like to hear what you guys think. Would they have something like this set up, and, if you do believe so AND got the chance to add any one term or clause to the treaty, what would it be?
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Old 11-22-2012, 03:21 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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I almost want to see the BL to invade in the aftermath of the siege.

Both sides staring each other down and suddenly the ground begins to rumble, green fire pours from the sky and a giant tidal wave crashed into Org and we see the BL and the naga beginning their attack since you'll have practically the entire Horde/Alliance leadership and military all in one place. Suddenly we have chaos, wonderful, wonderful chaos.

Just because I really don't want to see both sides to hug it out and declare that everything bad that happened was solely because of Garrosh and there is nothing more powerful then hugging it out to solve your problems.

Because if you think about it, do the players really want to sit there and play World of Diplomacycraft?

Actually.. wait.... there are players that would probably love to do that....
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Old 11-22-2012, 03:24 PM
Slywyn Slywyn is offline

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What I would like to see (though others probably won't agree with me) is a cease-fire or truce. Basically some kind of negotiation(if Varian is smart enough to say "hold up a sec, we're in your city, we can negotiate from a position of power") where the Alliance gains something they want, and the Horde get their capital back.

Not something so over the top that it fosters bad blood later on, but something like "pay reparations for Theramore" or "pull out of Ashenvale" or something like that. Something they want that isn't super over the top.
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Old 11-22-2012, 03:24 PM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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I just want to see the Alliance get -something- out of invading Orgrimmar, because realistically, the best course of action would be for them to supply the Horde rebels from afar and let them fight Garrosh. The Alliance has no reason to send in its own to fight for the Horde.

And Sly, war reparations was one idea we discussed.

As well as the Horde withdrawing completely from Ashenvale and in exchange, Darnassus would at least make an effort to set up a trade agreement with the Horde - if the Horde's druids would help heal the damage caused to the forests by the logging operations.
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Old 11-22-2012, 03:27 PM
Slywyn Slywyn is offline

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Oh, I just thought of something I'd like to see. Have the Alliance say "you get Orgrimmar back if you help us rebuild Theramore".

It could help foster relations between the factions, be constructive, and help out with this supposed peace that's being hinted as coming down the pipe later.
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Old 11-22-2012, 03:32 PM
Mshadowz Mshadowz is offline

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I want the alliance to cram a giant alliance flag in the center of the valley of strength and say "Step aside mother fuckers, you obviously have no idea what you are doing" leaving several massive regiments to basically make sure the Horde gets stabilized again, but not enough to pose a big threat again.
The faction conflicts could then heat up again when the Alliance "peacekeepers", you know, start being dicks about everything. Robbing from citizens, ect. Brawls could break out where a young hotheaded orc might attack one of the Alliance guards, resulting in a giant gang beating dished out by several bystanding Alliance guards as well. As an added bonus, making the majority of the guards Draenei would be a nice touch, as pretty much every Draenei alive on Azeroth today should remember the Orcs genocidal holocaust on their people, and many of them react in many harsh and brutal ways to the people they are "Protecting".

Maybe the horde players could take part in driving the alliance regiments outside of Org itself later on, leaving org trashed, eventually causing the alliance to just pull out entirely, losing nothing and leaving the Horde in a state worse than when Garrosh was in charge.
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Old 11-22-2012, 03:38 PM
Lord Eliphas Lord Eliphas is offline

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I see it like I saw the Crusades

Shit goes down, and the Crusaders (Alliance) decide not to help the Byzantines with their original request. They occupy various parts they've "liberated", and make their own pseudo kingdoms. Antioch, Edessa, Jerusalem.

Alliance will likely do the same, claiming that the Horde (even with Garrosh gone) isn't responsible with it's territories and has sent the world, once again, into war. So they create petty kingdoms with various houses whom want nothing to do but to create new empires.

But also, back home, there is dissent over this. Generals arguing that they've earned the territory, not these petty nobles. And we just may have an Alexios Kommenos-type character who takes over the Human-portion of the Alliance and sends it into civil-war. Executing Varian and sending the entire Alliance hay-wire.

Thus the Horde is beaten and nothing but a weak Confederation with no respectful or legitimate leader. And the Alliance is in civil-war, decoding whom owns the Throne of the Humans and how much territory "they" deserve.

AKA - Prepare for a Hundred Years War.
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Old 11-22-2012, 03:42 PM
Slywyn Slywyn is offline

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I like how people say the Alliance should be massive dicks and completely fuck over everything.

That's totally smart.

Though to be honest it's par for the course for Blizzard's storytelling. =l

"Hey we're ahead let's be massive dicks to everyone."
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Old 11-22-2012, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Slywyn View Post
I like how people say the Alliance should be massive dicks and completely fuck over everything.

That's totally smart.

Though to be honest it's par for the course for Blizzard's storytelling. =l

"Hey we're ahead let's be massive dicks to everyone."
Like how some people say the Alliance is the white man with the burden of bringing civilization to the barbaric corners of the world who're just too stupid to take care of themselves?

I like to think maybe there's a middle ground between these various extremes.

Now, bearing in mind the fact that the Alliance knows the Horde is in a state of open rebellion before the siege even takes place, it's likely some kind of entente will be reached before any forces even set foot in the city. If that's the case, then the terms are likely to be less problematic from a metagame perspective than stuff like "Disband the Horde" or "Pull out of everything that any Alliance race ever touched".

Rather than an outright peace treaty where everyone becomes friends forever, it's entirely possible we'll simply see a detente, where hostile forces are pulled out of contentious areas and further fighting is discouraged.
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Old 11-22-2012, 03:53 PM
Lord Eliphas Lord Eliphas is offline

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I say it for it's really something the inner part of the cadre would do.

They've been educated of war, conquest, and the rights to this. So they help conquer Orgrimmar, strike a victory (morally) and retribution for the Fall of Stormwind waay back in the day.

Will they just give that up?

Hell, I'm not even suggesting a Sack of KingsLanding-esque thing. If this is suppose to be dubious and grey-moral thing - everyone is suppose to have their own views on how to "fix" this mess. From each race of the two factions to even those outside it.

And it fucks up everything. Like it should.
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Old 11-22-2012, 04:00 PM
Slywyn Slywyn is offline

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People want peace. They don't want things to be fucked up. Again.
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Old 11-22-2012, 04:00 PM
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I just want to see the Draenei get some justice, and feel a ton of rage for all their race lost.
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Old 11-22-2012, 04:02 PM
Lord Eliphas Lord Eliphas is offline

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People want peace. They don't want things to be fucked up. Again.
People? Commonfolk? Yes.

Nobles? They'll turn on each other for whatever excuse.

Be it for the Pope, in revenge for a fallen member (Martells), to claim the Throne (Plantagenet and the Valois), or to maintain their Empire (30 Years War and the Spanish-Succession War)
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Old 11-22-2012, 04:04 PM
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Nothing will change. Only Metzen might fall into depression.
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Old 11-22-2012, 04:08 PM
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Nothing will change. Only Metzen might fall into depression.
"Don't worry Go'el..... I still love you! I still love you!!!!"
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Old 11-22-2012, 04:19 PM
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Well I would suggest for the Alliance to form a treaty with the Horde rebels, a very lenient treaty where they promise to retreat from the city after dispatching Garrosh, but after they subdue the city the far numerous Alliance army simply decides not to.

And then I would have many great ideas on how to continue this unprecedented occupation of an enemy capital but lets be honest here, it ain't gonna happen.

Varian is destined to be a baby savior so lets just stop this pointless cycle jerk and smell the roses.
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Old 11-22-2012, 04:28 PM
xie323 xie323 is offline

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I actually want to see a degree of redemption or poetic justice for Garrosh. But that's not happening because of the ignorant views of the WoW players.

I expect Smokeblader to bring up Godwin's Law any second.......

Also Lord Eliphas, I can't see your stuff happening. Most of Blizzard's recent games are on the idealistic scale in bleakness-vs-hopeful value.
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So instead of seeing this as a continuation of an era of the 20th century that gave us so much debt and destruction and undermined our liberties and conditions today that are so dangerous, let us think that we are now moving into a new era, a new era where we are going to concentrate on liberty and freedom and property rights and peace. I believe that is the cause that we should lead and I thank you very much for being part of it.~Ron Paul

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Old 11-22-2012, 04:33 PM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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Originally Posted by Quirnheim View Post
I was thinking about this a few weeks back with a friend over RID:

We all know that Warchief Muscle-head Meatball is going to go full out moustache twirling evil eventually and require the Alliance and the Horde rebels to raid Orgrimmar to put him down before he goes full out stupid. We also know that the Alliance eventually leaves and Orgrimmar is given back to the Horde - obviously, it's their capital.

But I keep thinking that I don't just see Varian and Thrall shaking hands and parting as bro's, here. Nor do I see them just having an informal conversation that ends with Varian saying "alright, we're gone".

The way I see it, I'd like to see some kind of treaty or agreement set up and hammered out by the Alliance leadership and the Horde rebels. Maybe at some kind of peace conference in Moonglade, sponsored by the Cenarion Circle(perfect role for Mr Neutral Malfurion!).

I just wouldn't want to see the Alliance agree to casually leave Orgrimmar with at least nothing for their trouble but dead soldiers and warm fuzzies.

I've discussed possible conditions and terms of said treaty with my friend but I'd like to hear what you guys think. Would they have something like this set up, and, if you do believe so AND got the chance to add any one term or clause to the treaty, what would it be?
What makes you think Garrosh does something even more 'evil' than he already is doing? What if the entire revolution is just the entire Horde getting tired of Garrosh and his behavior towards the other races in general. The gist of it will be the Horde rebellion lead by Thrall to take out Garrosh when the entire Horde gets tired of being subjugated leaving Garrosh nothing but his Blackrock forces and other loyalists.
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Old 11-22-2012, 04:35 PM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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I'm talking about the presumably fucked up shit he does with the Divine Bell and such.
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Old 11-22-2012, 04:36 PM
xie323 xie323 is offline

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What makes you think Garrosh does something even more 'evil' than he already is doing? What if the entire revolution is just the entire Horde getting tired of Garrosh and his behavior towards the other races in general. The gist of it will be the Horde rebellion lead by Thrall to take out Garrosh when the entire Horde gets tired of being subjugated leaving Garrosh nothing but his Blackrock forces and other loyalists.
Because the Garrosh haters demand it and if we don't listen to them they will burn down Blizzard HQ.
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So instead of seeing this as a continuation of an era of the 20th century that gave us so much debt and destruction and undermined our liberties and conditions today that are so dangerous, let us think that we are now moving into a new era, a new era where we are going to concentrate on liberty and freedom and property rights and peace. I believe that is the cause that we should lead and I thank you very much for being part of it.~Ron Paul
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Old 11-22-2012, 04:39 PM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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I'm talking about the presumably fucked up shit he does with the Divine Bell and such.
What he wanted to do with the Divine Bell was empower soldiers with it but he came to realize that most soldiers couldn't control their emotions except maybe him. Course that doesn't matter since he accidentally destroys both the bell and the hammer. His entire goal with 5.1 was sending Baine, Vol'jinm Lor'themar and the others to find artifacts of power to give the Horde any edge it can. Course all that does is cause the blood elf leadership to question him when he sends a sha to Silvermoon, it causes Vol'jin to just full out betray him when Vol'jin refuses to give the secrets of flesh shaping to Garrosh and causes Baine to just continue to think Garrosh is an idiot when he cleans of the mess Garrosh causes by unleashing sha in the Vale.

Most likely 5.2 and on is going to be us working with Thrall, Vol'jin and the other faction leaders to continue to watch Garrosh and undermine any of his plans. Of course he may end up finding something to empower him further but I doubt it'll be anything sha related.
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Old 11-22-2012, 04:41 PM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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Either way, let's not debate the way I worded the post - the main thing is that the vast majority of the Horde ends up turning on him. And at the same time the Alliance decides to raid Orgrimmar instead of, most logically, letting them destroy each other and THEN moving in to clean up what's left.

They should get -something-. The Orcs withdraw from Ashenvale, war reparations, a 2 week phased occupied Durotar...just not the "gratitude of the Horde....who go right back to hating them after they leave".
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Old 11-22-2012, 04:43 PM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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Originally Posted by Quirnheim View Post
Either way, let's not debate the way I worded the post - the main thing is that the vast majority of the Horde ends up turning on him. And at the same time the Alliance decides to raid Orgrimmar instead of, most logically, letting them destroy each other and THEN moving in to clean up what's left.

They should get -something-. The Orcs withdraw from Ashenvale, war reparations, a 2 week phased occupied Durotar...just not the "gratitude of the Horde....who go right back to hating them after they leave".
Well I guess it depends on whether you like the logic of without the Horde the Legion would just mop the floor with the Alliance. The entire battle will be a joint battle thing more than a 'hey the Horde rebels are attacking let's go in too'. That and wiping out most of an entire faction doesn't make for a fun MMO world for that other faction unless you're someone with a strange hardon for a dead Kingdom.
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Old 11-22-2012, 04:47 PM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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/sigh

Never once did I say the Horde should be wiped out, weakened to the point of useless or anything of the sort.

I simply stated that there should be some kind of -benefit- to the Alliance other then to help trade one enemy for another. Otherwise, they'd do better to sit out and wait out the civil war.
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Old 11-22-2012, 04:47 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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I thought you knew better than to involve Lordaeron, Leviathon.
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