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  #226  
Old 05-02-2015, 09:50 PM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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All I'm saying is, Superman has no utiltarian, biological nor psychological reason to sympathize with mankind. Superman has less in common with us than we do with ants. Rats. Sure, we may occasionally get attached to particular rats, our favorite rats, and we would fight to protect them, but we'd kill a million more rats if it served our means because we see ourselves as above them.
You mean apart from having human friends, human love interests, and being raised by human parents and instilled by their Midwestern values?
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  #227  
Old 05-02-2015, 09:51 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
All I'm saying is, Superman has no utiltarian, biological nor psychological reason to sympathize with mankind. Superman has less in common with us than we do with ants. Rats. Sure, we may occasionally get attached to particular rats, our favorite rats, and we would fight to protect them, but we'd kill a million more rats if it served our means because we see ourselves as above them.
Other than being raised by humans, as a human, to think like and empathize with humans? Even when he found out about his origins, it didn't wipe his memories of how he was raised and the personality he'd developed from that; it was all contextualized by his human upbringing. Or in a more clinical sense, he'd already been passively "conditioned" to sympathize with mankind since he was a small child.

Conversely, historical precedent has shown that generally speaking, most - not all, but most - other Kryptonian survivors who were raised on Krypton tend to become egotistical, aggressive psychopaths as soon as they realize they can toss around cement trucks like softballs and the humans can't do anything about it.

The average really makes it seem like Jor-el's aspirations for his son on Earth came from him and Mara being aberrant among Kryptonians in their empathy for non-Kryptonians, while the rest of the Kryptonian populace were mostly closet supervillains-in-waiting who would gleefully subjugate the universe for want of their own yellow sun.

(Admittedly MoS weakens that with its fucked-up Pa Kent, who essentially tells a child with superpowers that human life is entirely expendable for the sake of protecting his identity.)

Last edited by ARM3481; 05-02-2015 at 09:59 PM..
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  #228  
Old 05-02-2015, 09:55 PM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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You mean apart from having human friends, human love interests, and being raised by human parents and instilled by their Midwestern values?
But he is no human, why should he oppose his own kind?
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  #229  
Old 05-02-2015, 10:00 PM
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But he is no human, why should he oppose his own kind?
Because of what his own kind, those he never knew, would do to the people he knows and loves.
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  #230  
Old 05-02-2015, 10:31 PM
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Other than being raised by humans, as a human, to think like and empathize with humans? Even when he found out about his origins, it didn't wipe his memories of how he was raised and the personality he'd developed from that; it was all contextualized by his human upbringing. Or in a more clinical sense, he'd already been passively "conditioned" to sympathize with mankind since he was a small child.
If a human child was raised by wolves and later introduced to human society, who do you think he will sympathize more with?
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  #231  
Old 05-03-2015, 12:39 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Just saw Avengers: Age of Ultron. It was fun, but there were too many subplots. I preferred the first film.

And Batman vs Superman: Dawn of Justice looks awful.
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  #232  
Old 05-03-2015, 12:58 AM
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If a human child was raised by wolves and later introduced to human society, who do you think he will sympathize more with?
False equivalence.
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  #233  
Old 05-03-2015, 01:07 AM
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Was Falcon in the final battle against Ultron? I remember seeing him talking to Cap at the start of the film and then again in the new Avengers building, but I can't remember seeing him in any of the fight scenes.
He was not in the final battle. At the beginning he has a line about spending his time hunting cold leads RE: Bucky Barnes, so I think the implication is that he was busy doing that? Maybe just a scheduling conflict with Anthony Mackie? I was bummed, it would have been awesome to see him, War Machine and Iron Man holding their own in the sky.
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  #234  
Old 05-03-2015, 02:42 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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If a human child was raised by wolves and later introduced to human society, who do you think he will sympathize more with?
The sexy chick carrying a jug of water on her head.
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  #235  
Old 05-03-2015, 02:56 AM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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False equivalence.
The point is that Superman isn't human. He lacks the biological and psychological attachments to humanity that we require to be part of a cohesive social unit.
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  #236  
Old 05-03-2015, 03:05 AM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Either way the collateral damage in MoS was horrific to watch, and I have no sympathy for Clark. On the other end we have Batman who keeps imprisoning gang banging clowns after they murdered a couple dozen innocents. Rinse and repeat. Truly these are the greatest heroes in the world! And then we have a writer for this cinematic universe who says Martian Manhunter is too silly for live action, or that Wonder Woman is too hard to adapt on the big screen. Meanwhile a movie with a racoon and a talking tree is a successful hit.
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  #237  
Old 05-03-2015, 03:10 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
The point is that Superman isn't human. He lacks the biological and psychological attachments to humanity that we require to be part of a cohesive social unit.
Ture, he isn't human, but he does have the psychological attachements to humanity since he was raised, from a baby, with human parents who instilled into him human values and reasoning. He had no memories of his own birth parents, so their impact upon his psyche was negible until the Kents showed him his true history.

His actual time on Krypton was a lot shorter then say his cousin Supergirl who was still living in a Kryptonian society until her teenage years.

His social unit is all humans. His alter ego is human, as brilliantly broken down by Bill in Kill Bill Vol 2.

And then you look at what happens when born and raised Kyrptonians come to earth. They seek to conquer, in both the comics and movies.

Supergirl seems to be the exception, rather then the rule. Of course, that was pre-crisis Supergirl.

New 52 Supergirl is one angry young woman.
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  #238  
Old 05-03-2015, 03:16 AM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
Ture, he isn't human, but he does have the psychological attachements to humanity since he was raised, from a baby, with human parents who instilled into him human values and reasoning. He had no memories of his own birth parents, so their impact upon his psyche was negible until the Kents showed him his true history.

His actual time on Krypton was a lot shorter then say his cousin Supergirl who was still living in a Kryptonian society until her teenage years.

His social unit is all humans. His alter ego is human, as brilliantly broken down by Bill in Kill Bill Vol 2.
How do you tell a mannequin apart from a human being? It's the subtle biological markers of humanity- pheromones, subdermal muscle twitches, bloodflow- things that cannot be learned but are hard-coded into our monkey brains.

Kal El can form an attachment to humanity but it's a conscious, learned, active and thus forgettable attachment. When push comes to shove, Kal El will do things to humans that we wouldn't fathom: and he also imposes absolutely arbitrary rules because he sees humans as an "other", neither wholly similar not of equal standing.
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  #239  
Old 05-03-2015, 03:28 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
Kal El can form an attachment to humanity but it's a conscious, learned, active and thus forgettable attachment. When push comes to shove, Kal El will do things to humans that we wouldn't fathom: and he also imposes absolutely arbitrary rules because he sees humans as an "other", neither wholly similar not of equal standing.
But, you can say that about pretty much every single superhero and supervillian (human/mutant/alien).
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  #240  
Old 05-03-2015, 03:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
But, you can say that about pretty much every single superhero and supervillian (human/mutant/alien).
I'd say that about every single superhero and supervillain that was not born a human being. Captain America and the Hulk spent the majority of their life as humans and at the very least at one point had normal human psychology before being augmented. Beings like the mutants and inhumans of the marvel universe, being closely related to mankind but not being exactly the same, we can at least assume there are more commonalities than there are between mankind and Kryptonians (who I don't think are related, but there may have been some sci-fi wibbly wobbly mumbo jumbo in their deep past).

I'm not even 100% sure Superman is a mammal. He seems to be more like a ambulatory plant at times.
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  #241  
Old 05-03-2015, 03:57 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
The point is that Superman isn't human. He lacks the biological and psychological attachments to humanity that we require to be part of a cohesive social unit.
But does he?

The real-world absence of any earthbound species remotely comparable to our own in the specifics of cognitive and emotional function makes it hard to claim any definitive certainty in such a lacking on his part. We don't have any empirical example of another fully sapient species to which we can compare ourselves and accurately form a "control" as proof.

Technically, on Krypton the Kryptonians lacked the things that most set Superman apart from the humans of Earth. Without a yellow sun, they were practically human themselves. If anything, the Kryptonians and humans would both seem alien to Superman because even his own species as it naturally exists lacks the physiological and psychological adaptations to Earth and its inhabitants that he's acquired since arriving here. Even if they stayed long enough to become as powerful as he is, they'd still be aberrant to him, because they grew to maturity without "growing into" the physiological adaptations of exposure to a yellow sun.

If one's to haul out subconscious biological variances and social evolutions, one might as well say that Superman doesn't actually have arms, legs, a head and a torso. After all, those are human - or at the least, terran - traits, and therefore any similarities they bear to our own biology are wholly coincidental. Those aren't "eyes"; humans have eyes, and he's not human, so they're something else. His skin could as easily not truly be skin, but rather an extremely pliable, porous, exoskeletal carapace.

But none of that's indicated to be the case. As far as the "canon" is concerned, shared parallels in human and original Kryptonian evolution are comparable in purpose and function, such that Jor-el recognized the potential in humanity based on his own species' capacities rather than just seeing a planet full of bizarre aliens he couldn't relate to. If the two species were that alien to each other in their natures, he wouldn't have been so confident that his son's presence on Earth would be beneficial to us or him.

Now, if one were to be completely "realistic" about it, nobody - human or Kryptonian - should be able to even interact properly with Superman because having matured over time into his current rate and precision of sensory perception should have him reflexively operating at a speed beyond anything that either species - even Krypton-born Kryptonians granted similar powers by coming to Earth - could keep up with. Which has always rendered every battle he's fought hypothetically ridiculous, because no matter how strong a foe is, if they don't also have every single other power he has - especially his speed and the capacity of mental reaction time to operate and coherently process thought responses at said speed - he should be able to outmaneuver them to the point that their strength wouldn't even be able to be brought to bear against him. In which case, almost every time he's taken a hit, he's almost had to have slowed down and taken it on purpose.

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
I'd say that about every single superhero and supervillain that was not born a human being. Captain America and the Hulk spent the majority of their life as humans and at the very least at one point had normal human psychology before being augmented. Beings like the mutants and inhumans of the marvel universe, being closely related to mankind but not being exactly the same, we can at least assume there are more commonalities than there are between mankind and Kryptonians (who I don't think are related, but there may have been some sci-fi wibbly wobbly mumbo jumbo in their deep past).

I'm not even 100% sure Superman is a mammal. He seems to be more like a ambulatory plant at times.
Marvel's at least got the excuse of the different human species on Earth, as well as tons of alien species, sharing common genetic manipulators in their primordial pasts. Between the Celestials, Kree, and other intergalactic gene-tinkerers deliberately futzing with so many prominent species' ancient DNA, the possibility always exists that they actively coded and preserved commonalities in the directed evolution of various worlds for the express purpose of facilitating future compatibility between them.

My familiarity with DC's cosmic lore is less broad, so I don't know offhand if they've done as much as Marvel with the idea of major alien races sharing ancient "precursors" who deliberately played around with their primitive ancestors' genes. That generally plays into the way Marvel's always seemed more keen on the whole concept of entities and agencies who literally embody the very cogs and working parts of the universe itself.

Last edited by ARM3481; 05-03-2015 at 04:06 AM..
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  #242  
Old 05-03-2015, 04:08 AM
spidey1980 spidey1980 is offline

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*mumbles* Where's that Man of Steel thread when you need it...
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  #243  
Old 05-03-2015, 09:38 AM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
Because of what his own kind, those he never knew, would do to the people he knows and loves.
But they would view him as one of their own, not like the humans.

The majority of the humans would never view Superman as their own, either as a god, a monster or a weapon, thus it leads to BVS.
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  #244  
Old 05-03-2015, 09:43 AM
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If I had been adopted by a loving family I'd protect them and their extended kin, even if I'm not biologically related to them. Why should this be different if we're not members of the same species?

For Superman things are just on a larger scale.
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  #245  
Old 05-03-2015, 10:05 AM
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*mumbles* Where's that Man of Steel thread when you need it...
It's unavailable due to having a flashback.
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  #246  
Old 05-03-2015, 10:11 AM
Slowpokeking Slowpokeking is offline

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If I had been adopted by a loving family I'd protect them and their extended kin, even if I'm not biologically related to them. Why should this be different if we're not members of the same species?

For Superman things are just on a larger scale.
But it's not how the majority of the humans view or treat Superman, especially after he showed his power.
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  #247  
Old 05-03-2015, 10:33 AM
Korath Korath is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
If a human child was raised by wolves and later introduced to human society, who do you think he will sympathize more with?
It would depend of how he was treated by the wolves. But I have at leasts one example of a child living in the wild alone and who never learned to speak (and remained mostly feral) until his death,Victor of Aveyron. It shows that what a boy learn and where he live during childhood. So, Superman having been raised by humans he loves and discovering what he is once he is an adult explains why he favours humans above Kryptonians. And the Kryptonians have all the biological foundations for social life. Psychology is acquired through lie, not innate.
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  #248  
Old 05-03-2015, 10:42 AM
Ku'ja Ku'ja is offline

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So why couldn't Quick Silver catch the bullets at the end of the movie like he did at the beginning?
He had a dude in his hands?

Also on the Thanos thing i expect him to bring back a ton of the villains to fight them with the first movie being them trying to make sure he doesn't get to Earth. So Avengers/Guardians fighting him with just everyone desperately doing it in the second part when he reaches Earth. The Gauntlet with the gems is that damn powerful all it would take is the use of the Time Gem to bring back Ronan or anyone with the mind one to control there minds (think it can do this).

Talking about Superman like that makes me wonder what would happen in a different timeline if baby Superman showed up and was adopted by the Wayne family or Batman himself. Super Robin!
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  #249  
Old 05-03-2015, 10:46 AM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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Talking about Superman like that makes me wonder what would happen in a different timeline if baby Superman showed up and was adopted by the Wayne family or Batman himself. Super Robin!
Already done, look it up.
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  #250  
Old 05-03-2015, 10:49 AM
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So, I'm about to go so this movie. So hyped up the wazoo...
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