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  #16451  
Old 12-10-2016, 07:53 PM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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Except the popular vote and the electoral vote have aligned ever since uhhhhh the last Republican president was put into office

"Popular mandate from the majority of the states" is ludicrous. Idaho is not the same as New York just because both are states.

Really liking the whole "Actually if you live in a city your vote should matter less than someone who lives in bumfuck" arguments though, that definitely sounds like a fair electoral system.
Ohio, and all the states in the middle of the country have concerns just as valid as those in New York. It's their turn to have them addressed. Thanks to the Electoral college, that's possible.
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  #16452  
Old 12-10-2016, 07:55 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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People in Rhode Island, Delaware, and Connecticut are disproportionately represented in the electoral college too.
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  #16453  
Old 12-10-2016, 07:58 PM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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People in Rhode Island, Delaware, and Connecticut are disproportionately represented in the electoral college too.
Democrats pretty much start off with the biggest guaranteed votes anyway. Trump had a crazy uphill battle in the Electoral College, Democrats just rely on big cities too much, they forget the rest of the country that feeds those cities.
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  #16454  
Old 12-10-2016, 08:07 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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People in Rhode Island, Delaware, and Connecticut are disproportionately represented in the electoral college too.
Sure. Abolish it and move to one person, one vote. Not 5 votes for Ohioans, .5 votes for Californians.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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  #16455  
Old 12-10-2016, 08:12 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Democrats pretty much start off with the biggest guaranteed votes anyway. Trump had a crazy uphill battle in the Electoral College, Democrats just rely on big cities too much, they forget the rest of the country that feeds those cities.
Why can't those urbanites appreciate my bumpkin diversity and flavor! We are products of our environment and the electoral college keeps that in mind.

You would be hard pressed to argue that NYC doesn't have any power or influence because of the electoral college. NYC is home to the biggest media not just in the country but in the world. It really shows in the kind of stories they cover and how they present everything. That is just how urban centers are. They don't make food, provide power for everything, or manufacture things like automobiles. They are cultural epicenters.

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Sure. Abolish it and move to one person, one vote. Not 5 votes for Ohioans, .5 votes for Californians.
No. I don't trust California at all to report their popular votes with integrity. If Midwestern manufacturing continues to die I will have to move away from where I grew up because your high density states aren't invested in manufacturing. There would be no political solution to what is a more regional problem because they could never muster the votes. The region would always be a loser along with the other rural parts of the country. Not even the Republicans would cater to them when it becomes more beneficial for everyone to focus on just NYC and LA.
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  #16456  
Old 12-10-2016, 08:15 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Except the popular vote is typically really close barring rare blowouts and Republicans are perfectly capable of winning the popular vote.

If your argument is that the evil Californians would commit massive popular vote fraud or some dumb shit than I don't see how the electoral college prevents that, unless you're subscribing to the "Honest Country Folk/Devious and Deceptive City Dweller" worldview.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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  #16457  
Old 12-10-2016, 08:19 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Except the popular vote is typically really close barring rare blowouts and Republicans are perfectly capable of winning the popular vote.
That is with the electoral college though. No politicians would ever step foot in the Midwest if it was based off of the popular vote. It would completely change the way the government is run and how politicians campaign. They would spend the majority of their time in NYC and LA.

The Republican party would still exist but it would change completely. They wouldn't be the rural party anymore because if they were they would never win. They would adapt and we would have two urban parties.

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Except the popular vote is typically really close barring rare blowouts and Republicans are perfectly capable of winning the popular vote.

If your argument is that the evil Californians would commit massive popular vote fraud or some dumb shit than I don't see how the electoral college prevents that, unless you're subscribing to the "Honest Country Folk/Devious and Deceptive City Dweller" worldview.
No the electoral vote prevents California from sending anymore than 55 electoral votes to vote for a president. If one person voted in California or if 36 million people voted in California they can still only send 55 electoral votes. There is no reason for them to lie about the popular vote because it wouldn't help them win.
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  #16458  
Old 12-10-2016, 08:25 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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That is with the electoral college though.
I wasn't talking about the electoral college, I was talking about the popular vote. On the whole the popular vote is typically split really close and there's no reason to believe that would suddenly cease to be the case just because the electoral college went away. Ohio is still almost 12 million votes without the electoral college, more than New York City's.

And the GOP isn't a rural party and hasn't been for a long time. Only 15% of America lives in "rural" areas. Even in red states electoral power is concentrated in urban areas because that's where people fucking live.

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No the electoral vote prevents California from sending anymore than 55 electoral votes to vote for a president. If one person voted in California or if 36 million people voted in California they can still only send 55 electoral votes. There is no reason for them to lie about the popular vote because it wouldn't help them win.
So...the electoral college is good because it disenfranchises Californian voters?

I'm going to let you in on a little secret; it doesn't force anyone to be honest about anything because the electoral college vote is still based on a states popular vote.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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  #16459  
Old 12-10-2016, 08:35 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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So if the popular vote decided that slavery should happen, I guess that means slavery should come back!
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  #16460  
Old 12-10-2016, 08:38 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Him bumblefucking his way into owning China and paving the way to ending the half a century long farce that is everyone tiptoeing around Taiwan is something I appreciate although am reluctant to credit him for.

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So if the popular vote decided that slavery should happen, I guess that means slavery should come back!
The electoral college decides presidents, not individual policies.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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  #16461  
Old 12-10-2016, 08:44 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I wasn't talking about the electoral college, I was talking about the popular vote. On the whole the popular vote is typically split really close and there's no reason to believe that would suddenly cease to be the case just because the electoral college went away. Ohio is still almost 12 million votes without the electoral college, more than New York City's.

And the GOP isn't a rural party and hasn't been for a long time. Only 15% of America lives in "rural" areas. Even in red states electoral power is concentrated in urban areas because that's where people fucking live.

So...the electoral college is good because it disenfranchises Californian voters?

I'm going to let you in on a little secret; it doesn't force anyone to be honest about anything because the electoral college vote is still based on a states popular vote.
You don't seem to understand that the behavior of politicians is based off of winning the electoral college. It would be so much harder to campaign in the entire state of Ohio than it would be in NYC because of proximity. You aren't factoring in how differently politicians would behave when they are trying to win elections because you are assuming they would chase after swing states instead of spending most of their time in LA or NYC.

You don't seem to understand the concept I am trying to point out here. I don't blame you because you are Canadian and they don't need to teach the US constitution there(but they really should in the US). California is limited to 55 electoral votes. It doesn't matter if California reports 1 vote or 36 million. There is no reason to lie. If you make it about the popular vote then California has every reason to lie because California can actually increases its share of the winning vote by doing so. California could double its influence on the presidency if they reported 30 million votes instead of 15 million. Under the current system it wouldn't matter because the census is conducted every 10 years and their electoral votes are based off of that. I don't know how I could explain that concept any better. Can someone please help me?
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  #16462  
Old 12-10-2016, 09:00 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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“I’d have to examine it,” McCain said of the potential nomination. “You want to give the president of the United States the benefit of the doubt because the people have spoken. But Vladimir Putin is a thug, bully and a murderer, and anybody else who describes him as anything else is lying.”

Go, McCain, go! Fuck his shit up!
John McCain needs to retire, at the very least.
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  #16463  
Old 12-10-2016, 09:08 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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You don't seem to understand that the behavior of politicians is based off of winning the electoral college. It would be so much harder to campaign in the entire state of Ohio than it would be in NYC because of proximity.
Good thing most of Ohio's population is concentrated in Columbus, Cleveland and Cincinnati then!

You're seriously overestimating how many people in the US could be considered "rural" as a percentage of the population.

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I don't blame you because you are Canadian and they don't need to teach the US constitution there
Don't mock me.

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If you make it about the popular vote then California has every reason to lie because California can actually increases its share of the winning vote by doing so. California could double its influence on the presidency if they reported 30 million votes instead of 15 million.
The notion that those wicked Californians would lie about 15 million votes if not for the electoral college is a paranoid fantasy, one that anyone could invoke to justify disenfranchising anyone. It's pretty selfish of you to argue that we should keep the actual disenfranchisement of urban voters right now for fear of the theoretical disenfranchisement of low-population states in the future.

Except that's not even what you're arguing. You're arguing that the system shouldn't be changed because then Democratic states might get an outsized voice (assuming they lie and cheat and steal because wicked inhuman democrats), as opposed to now where Republican states actually have an outsized voice that they don't even have to lie, cheat, and steal to possess.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.

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  #16464  
Old 12-10-2016, 09:22 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Good thing most of Ohio's population is concentrated in Columbus, Cleveland and Cincinnati then!

You're seriously overestimating how many people in the US could be considered "rural" as a percentage of the population.

The notion that those wicked Californians would lie about 15 million votes if not for the electoral college is a paranoid fantasy, one that anyone could invoke to justify disenfranchising anyone. It's pretty selfish of you to argue that we should keep the actual disenfranchisement of urban voters right now for fear of the theoretical disenfranchisement of low-population states in the future.
Not nearly as much as NYC though! But really there are more people in suburban and rural Ohio than you seem to think. Rural is a relative metric so your argument is pointless semantics. You deciding what constitutes rural in absolute terms just to win an internet argument is entirely pointless. I only use rural as a relative term. Anything that is less dense than average could be rural. There is no reason to tie an absolute value to that term.

You should probably educate yourself on the reason why we have the electoral college then because that is one of the reasons. It isn't a paranoid fantasy. It is what the system was designed to prevent. It is absolutely naive to pretend democracy is always executed perfectly without any accountability or oversight. Historically and worldwide that has never been the case. There are cities that ignore federal law when it comes to immigration and refuse to coordinate with the federal government. The idea that these same jurisdictions wouldn't lie about how many people voted is the fantasy. We don't trust people and institutions without just cause and especially just because they will berate us if we don't. California is just an example because it is a state that has single party rule and they actually took that single party rule to not have a Republican run for senate in their state. California isn't being disenfranchised here.
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  #16465  
Old 12-10-2016, 09:35 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Not nearly as much as NYC though! But really there are more people in suburban and rural Ohio than you seem to think. Rural is a relative metric so your argument is pointless semantics. You deciding what constitutes rural in absolute terms just to win an internet argument is entirely pointless. I only use rural as a relative term. Anything that is less dense than average could be rural. There is no reason to tie an absolute value to that term.
A) That wasn't what you were arguing, you were arguing that it's easier to campaign in urban areas than it is to campaign in rural areas and that therefore, in a system based on the popular vote, Ohio would be at a disadvantage. That isn't true; even in red states most people are concentrated in cities. The relative ease of campaigning in Ohio vs New York in this hypothetical scenario are more similar than you've been putting forth.

B) Yes, in an absolute sense, there would still be fewer votes to be had in Ohio than there would be in New York. That's because fewer people live in Ohio. You haven't done a good job explaining how it is more democratic to give Ohio a vote multiplier to bring it up to New York's value pound for pound despite the fact that more people live in New York.

C) People in "red" states or "blue" states don't vote uniformly. They only look like they vote uniformly because the electoral college assigns each state a winner-take-all number of vote. When you look at the popular votes you see that there are plenty of urbanites who vote Republican and plenty of rural folks who vote Democrat. That just doesn't come across thanks to the electoral college designating states "blue" or "red."

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You should probably educate yourself on the reason why we have the electoral college then because that is one of the reasons. It isn't a paranoid fantasy. It is what the system was designed to prevent. It is absolutely naive to pretend democracy is always executed perfectly without any accountability or oversight.
You are correct that the electoral college was designed with the intent of checking the popular vote, but not because there was concern over massive voter fraud in the scale of the millions because

A) The framers of government didn't live in a time where America was as huge as it is now, and

B) Universal suffrage wasn't even a glimmer in their eye and the only votes envisaged were from landed gentry.

The actual reason for the electoral college is to have a bunch of sensible, stable, and educated people have veto power in the event that an unqualified demagogue was swept into power on the backs of the mob. Boy that sure worked out swell in tyool 2016 huh
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  #16466  
Old 12-10-2016, 09:37 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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John McCain needs to retire, at the very least.
Do you dislike him because he was a POW?
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  #16467  
Old 12-10-2016, 09:58 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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A) That wasn't what you were arguing, you were arguing that it's easier to campaign in urban areas than it is to campaign in rural areas and that therefore, in a system based on the popular vote, Ohio would be at a disadvantage. That isn't true; even in red states most people are concentrated in cities. The relative ease of campaigning in Ohio vs New York in this hypothetical scenario are more similar than you've been putting forth.

B) Yes, in an absolute sense, there would still be fewer votes to be had in Ohio than there would be in New York. That's because fewer people live in Ohio. You haven't done a good job explaining how it is more democratic to give Ohio a vote multiplier to bring it up to New York's value pound for pound despite the fact that more people live in New York.

C) People in "red" states or "blue" states don't vote uniformly. They only look like they vote uniformly because the electoral college assigns each state a winner-take-all number of vote. When you look at the popular votes you see that there are plenty of urbanites who vote Republican and plenty of rural folks who vote Democrat. That just doesn't come across thanks to the electoral college designating states "blue" or "red."

You are correct that the electoral college was designed with the intent of checking the popular vote, but not because there was concern over massive voter fraud in the scale of the millions because

A) The framers of government didn't live in a time where America was as huge as it is now, and

B) Universal suffrage wasn't even a glimmer in their eye and the only votes envisaged were from landed gentry.

The actual reason for the electoral college is to have a bunch of sensible, stable, and educated people have veto power in the event that an unqualified demagogue was swept into power on the backs of the mob. Boy that sure worked out swell in tyool 2016 huh
Because people in New York only understand and are invested in the happenings in New York but they aren't the entire country? You look down upon Idaho but do the Idaho farmers deserve a voice in government or are a bunch of office workers more important? Both groups of people are products of their environment and people vote on regional interests. No one would ever campaign or represent the Idaho farmer in your scenario. That doesn't make for a healthy democracy when only the highest densely populated areas get any say in government. You need your energy industry, your farms, and your manufacturing interests to be represented and those don't exist in your densely populated areas.

You claim the Republicans and Democrats would be the same way under your scenario. They wouldn't. They would change their entire platform to cater to heavily densely populated areas. Republicans would be completely unrecognizable. No politicians would ever step foot in the Midwest ever again because it is the most sparsely populated region in the country. The get out to vote effort wouldn't be worth while. People only want to change the way our system works when it prevents them from getting what they want because they don't care that the founders wanted to restrain them from tyranny of the majority. The senate isn't democratic and the house of representatives is actually the most democratic but you still can't focus on just the highest densely populated areas to win the house. That design is consistent through out our constitution. You have to cater to a diverse and wide spread group of voters and not just NYC and LA rule over the entire country because they have so many people piled on top of each other.

It doesn't matter what you think it is a good argument or not. This isn't an argument. This is an explanation. You can believe what ever you want and justify what ever you want. Our society is based upon our constitution and you can't decide to be the arbitrator of truth and democracy to change that. Even Democrats in rural areas are different then ones in NYC. The Democrat senator in Indiana is pro-life and pro-second amendment. He voted against Obama many times because he has to cater to the culture there. The names of the party is insignificant. The Republicans just tend to cater to more rural parts of the country but that is a pattern and not a rule.

There is nothing that requires the electoral college to be educated. There is actually nothing that says the electoral votes are winner takes all. The state actually decides how those electoral votes are distributed. Maine and Nebraska are different. A state doesn't actually have to have a popular vote at but he it behooves them to do so so the federal government candidates campaign in their states. Our states don't even have uniform voting rules. Some states require photo identification to vote. There are different rules for early voting and there is a state that does all mail in ballots. Another state does ranked voting instead of FPTP. If we had a better education system maybe our people would understand civics better and pay attention to all those down ballot votes they make which have an impact on all these things and their lives. The electoral college has never functioned the way you described but it has prevented voter fraud and it has functioned to give smaller states more say.
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  #16468  
Old 12-10-2016, 10:19 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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I had originally typed up another paragraph by paragraph point by point counterargument until I realized that you're literally arguing that 15% of the country should be weighted the same as 85% of the country on the basis that you believe 85% of the country is scary and wants to hurt you and your way of life and take your guns or whatnot and I suddenly understood the kind of overwhelming fear that must motivate rural conservatives.

You guys KNOW you're in the severe minority, you KNOW you're on the losing side of history, and you KNOW that if things were actually decided democratically you'd lose on most issues of governance. You are actively arguing that America should be less democratic out of fear. I don't even feel anger, I feel pity, especially since that fear is baseless.
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  #16469  
Old 12-10-2016, 10:21 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Do you dislike him because he was a POW?
No, because he's a neocon no better than any of the others.
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  #16470  
Old 12-10-2016, 10:25 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Are we using "neoconservative" by its actual definition or the newspeak "neocon" which means "people who don't like Russia invading and annexing territory from its neighbours"
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You are right Fojar.
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  #16471  
Old 12-10-2016, 10:26 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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No, because he's a neocon no better than any of the others.
I'm far from being his biggest fan, but he definitely has his moments.
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  #16472  
Old 12-10-2016, 10:29 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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All your fucking names changed
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You are right Fojar.
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  #16473  
Old 12-10-2016, 10:29 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Are we using "neoconservative" by its actual definition or the newspeak "neocon" which means "people who don't like Russia invading and annexing territory from its neighbours"
Actual definition.

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I'm far from being his biggest fan, but he definitely has his moments.
This isn't one of them.
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  #16474  
Old 12-10-2016, 10:30 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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We aren't a democracy. We are a federal constitutional republic. I am not advocating for a change. You are. This is how our system was designed. It isn't about them trying to hurt people. It is about people being products of their environment. It isn't even 85% versus 15%. Clinton won by a couple percentage points even if you assume all states reported their vote totals accurately.

I don't see why pointing out that a region that relies more on manufacturing cares more about manufacturing than a region that does not makes the later evil and out to get the former. It is just a blind spot. People are voting based off of how they see the world and the world they are capable of seeing is limited. A lot of people also vote parochially. Anyone can justify any point of view just like you are now. I don't care if you insult me. Direct democracy is dangerous mob rule and tyranny of the majority. Your mob can't trample over the rest of the country no matter how you spin it. You only care when the side you prefer loses and don't put to scrutiny any other part of our government that fails your flimsy test.
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Old 12-10-2016, 10:37 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
We aren't a democracy. We are a federal constitutional republic.
So I've been wrong to admire the US system of government and for its strong advocacy of democratic rule and individual freedom for all this time? I don't think I have been.

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I don't see why pointing out that a region that relies more on manufacturing cares more about manufacturing than a region that does not makes the later evil and out to get the former. It is just a blind spot.
You know that there are more cities in the USA than Chicago-NYC-LA, right? Manufacturing cities in the rust belt constitute "urban voters" as well, and there are actually a lot of votes to be found there even in a system of popular vote.

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Your mob can't trample over the rest of the country no matter how you spin it. You only care when the side you prefer loses and don't put to scrutiny any other part of our government that fails your flimsy test.
Why are you afraid of me PJ? Because I live in a city?
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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You are right Fojar.
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