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Old 11-23-2013, 01:09 AM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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Default Social Justice Warrior tries to yell at Dustin Browder, gets served

Original Interview:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013...igns-in-mobas/

Followup, ass-blasted article:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013...orm-interview/


My face when reading these articles:


"B... but... the patriarchy!"
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Old 11-23-2013, 01:15 AM
HalfElfDragon HalfElfDragon is offline

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Honestly, saying "we're not sending a message" doesn't actually mean you aren't sending a message. It just means you aren't thinking about the message you're sending.
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Old 11-23-2013, 01:46 AM
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Honestly, saying "we're not sending a message" doesn't actually mean you aren't sending a message. It just means you aren't thinking about the message you're sending.
There's a line between sending a message and making a message. Sending implies that they are targeting someone with a specific ideology. Making is something innocuous.
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Old 11-23-2013, 01:50 AM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Any female character that's not a homely butch lesbian is patriarchy!!! Why does the world not cater to my every wish?!?!!!?

And honestly, it's one fucking skin that isn't even that sexualized. Grow the hell up. Blizzard really does just make stuff that looks cool. Blizzard, and really all game companies shouldn't have to go through puritanical sensors for all content that they put out.
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Old 11-23-2013, 02:36 AM
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Skytotem writes for that rockpapershotgun?
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Old 11-23-2013, 06:44 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Leviathon View Post
Skytotem writes for that rockpapershotgun?
EDIT:* Actually they're both decent articles. So no reason for me to be hurt.

Seriously though

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RPS: You have some interesting alternate outfits for heroes. Roller Derby Nova, especially, caught my eye. On its own, that’s totally fine – just a silly, goofy thing. A one-off. But it got me thinking about how often MOBAs tend to hyper-sexualize female characters to a generally preposterous degree – that is to say, make it the norm, not a one-off at all – and StarCraft’s own, um, interesting focus choices as of late. How are you planning to approach all of that in Heroes?

Browder: Well, I mean, some of these characters, I would argue, are already hyper-sexualized in a sense. I mean, Kerrigan is wearing heels, right? We’re not sending a message to anybody. We’re just making characters who look cool. Our sensibilities are more comic book than anything else. That’s sort of where we’re at. But I’ll take the feedback. I think it’s very fair feedback.



RPS: I have to add, though, that comics might not be the best point of reference for this sort of thing. I mean, it’s a medium that’s notorious – often in a not-good way – for sexing up female characters and putting them in some fairly gross situations.

Browder: We’re not running for President. We’re not sending a message. No one should look to our game for that.

RPS: But it’s not even about a message. The goal is to let people have fun in an environment where they can feel awesome without being weirded out or even objectified. This is a genre about empowerment. Why shouldn’t everyone feel empowered? That’s what it’s about at the end of the day: letting everyone have a fair chance to feel awesome.

Browder: Uh-huh. Cool. Totally.

[PR says we've run over, tells me I have to leave]

RPS: Thank you for your time.

NOTE: This interview, quite obviously, ended in an uncomfortable place, and I decided to break that down at length in a separate opinion piece. It will be live soon, and I’ll link it here when it’s been posted.
How does that qualify as 'yelling'?

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Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
Any female character that's not a homely butch lesbian is patriarchy!!! Why does the world not cater to my every wish?!?!!!?

And honestly, it's one fucking skin that isn't even that sexualized. Grow the hell up. Blizzard really does just make stuff that looks cool. Blizzard, and really all game companies shouldn't have to go through puritanical sensors for all content that they put out.
All he asked him was how he intended to approach it, he noted that on its own the roller derby thing was pretty innocuous.
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Old 11-23-2013, 08:07 AM
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It’s ironic that many of the people who first started using the term “Social Justice Warrior” would have identified as feminists. Having watched it evolve, I’m pretty sure that phrase came from the fangirl side of fandom originally. They coined it to distinguish what they/we saw as “good” social justice activism from the “rawr proud misandrist, drink bleach cis scum” kind. But, as Tumblr brought different Internet communities together, it spread and ended up becoming the new “PC,” used against anyone who found anything offensive. Not surprising, though. Any attempt to draw a neat line between “good” and “bad” social justice is probably doomed to failure.

/semi-relevant history review
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Old 11-23-2013, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
Original Interview:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013...igns-in-mobas/

Followup, ass-blasted article:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013...orm-interview/


My face when reading these articles:


"B... but... the patriarchy!"
That second article...
Humanity, whatever happens to you, you've deserved it.
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Old 11-23-2013, 08:37 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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That second article...
Humanity, whatever happens to you, you've deserved it.
:|

Would you like to talk about it at all?
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Old 11-23-2013, 09:17 AM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
:|

Would you like to talk about it at all?
No, I'm just going to facepalm and cry for humanity.
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Old 11-23-2013, 09:25 AM
Odok Odok is offline

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I think the interviewer was a bit of an ass at the end for asking a bunch of loaded questions and obviously going into that interview with a hidden agenda, but I have to give him some props for doing some actual journalism and pushing people out of their comfort zone.

I think Browder has a point in that everything can't be 100% perfect for everyone all the time, but just throwing up your hands and saying "it's not an issue on our minds, it's not our problem" is one of the worst responses you can have to something like this. Especially in the entertainment industry, you need to be mindful of topic issues. I think it would've been more respectable if he'd just said "yeah we know it's a bit sexist, but it fits our art style. Everything is exaggerated, but we try to be mindful of it."

The second article strikes me as passive aggressive choir preaching, and largely unnecessary.
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Old 11-23-2013, 09:25 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by Leviathon View Post
Skytotem writes for that rockpapershotgun?
Looked more like Xil's writing. I don't think Sky could ever sound that poisonous.

And yeah, those articles are just unprofessional.
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Old 11-23-2013, 09:26 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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No, I'm just going to facepalm and cry for humanity.
What issues do you take with these statements?

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Do people do things for the wrong reasons sometimes? Certainly. I have no doubt that some gamers do argue for better treatment of women in gaming because they want a tangible reward for their troubles. Or because they’re bitter, and they want to make life difficult for their supposed “enemies.” But to believe that’s where all – or even most – people fed up with gaming’s boy’s club mentality are coming from is to view large swathes of humanity in such a bitter, cynical light that it’s just… just…

Infuriating

Gross

Discouraging

Misguided

Sad. Tears-welling-in-my-eyes-as-I-type-this sad. One of my greatest fears on this Earth is that I might someday sink to that level of cynical jadedness. I worry about it every day.
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So, briefly, let’s break this down: most of us would say games are art, yes? Or, if not whatever your entirely arbitrary definition of art is, then important. Significant. Better in some ways than TV, film, or literature. Gaming has hit the big time. Gaming is legitimate. But it’s like the most quoted dead uncle in human history once said (shortly before dying, as he was wont to do): with great power comes great responsibility.

The act of creating something and propagating it among millions of people absolutely sends a message, whether you intend to or not. Maybe you weren’t trying to express any specific viewpoint or hurt anybody’s feelings, but implicit messages still peer up from just beneath the surface. Like it or not, if someone plays games as their main hobby and they constantly see women dressed in objectifying fashions or slotted into subservient roles, that’s going to infiltrate their norm. Male or female, bodied, gendered, or whatever else, being exposed to something constantly affects people. The effect is far less impactful for some than others, but it’s always there.

To claim otherwise is to essentially strip gaming of its supposed cultural legitimacy – to go from “We are important; treat us that way, damn it” to “Haha, nope, never mind. Just a game. No biggie. Can’t be influential or thought-provoking after all. Ebert was right, hurrah!”

You take the good and the bad. Despite what some games might be (rather worrisomely) trying to teach us, you can’t always get your way.

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Originally Posted by Odok View Post
The second article strikes me as passive aggressive choir preaching, and largely unnecessary.
At last a legitimate criticism to engage! Would you care to elaborate?
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  #14  
Old 11-23-2013, 09:56 AM
Cantus Cantus is offline

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By virtue of the fact that this game is played by millions of individuals, influences millions more in some capacity, and overall has become a zeitgeist of our generation of gamers...yes they're sending a message. By virtue of standing in a spotlight and speaking, what they say, do, and produce carries a modicum of weight.

This is why we've consistently mocked fantasy armor, especially and including WoW's depiction of it, when it comes to women.

So no, Browder can't idly dismiss the questions (no matter how rudely or loaded they may have been asked), with "we're just trying to make cool art." If his direct acknowledgement of Kerrigan alone speaks to his awareness of things, than he and the rest of the art team should at the very least make it a point to have an answer beyond "because we're making things look cool," for such potential interview fodder.

This does have a reason, because there is an enormous segment of the gaming population (much less the greater populace) who are disconnected from appropriate gender relations. I'm not talking about feminist/man-hating tropes, but general respect for your peer (regardless of which chromosome you paired with). There is a mindset often parodied with making sandwiches and popping out babies, that is actually prevalent enough to be troublesome. There is an even worse mindset of (as previously noted) justice-warriors who take the exact opposite tact to the point that they turn themselves into the trope they strive to dismiss (aka - man-hating femnazis).

And overall, there is a general dismissal of personal responsibility for these things. That just because you aren't acting out, your willingness to support those who do shouldn't matter. I'm just as guilty about this as a great many others (I've several highly misogynist friends who I cannot speak against lest I enjoy the wrath of the collective group as "one of those feminists"). If this is amongst a group of relatively intelligent and socially conscious individuals, I deeply fear for those who are so trapped in gaming culture they don't consider any other social circle as viable. Without that greater interaction, that greater critique by virtue of seeing the wider world, these people will never be given the chance to understand where they're in the wrong.

So for them, it requires a conscious effort from Browder, Metzen, and everyone else who designs the world they inhabit, to help socialize them in some relative capacity.
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Old 11-23-2013, 10:02 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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By virtue of the fact that this game is played by millions of individuals, influences millions more in some capacity, and overall has become a zeitgeist of our generation of gamers...yes they're sending a message. By virtue of standing in a spotlight and speaking, what they say, do, and produce carries a modicum of weight.

This is why we've consistently mocked fantasy armor, especially and including WoW's depiction of it, when it comes to women.

So no, Browder can't idly dismiss the questions (no matter how rudely or loaded they may have been asked), with "we're just trying to make cool art." If his direct acknowledgement of Kerrigan alone speaks to his awareness of things, than he and the rest of the art team should at the very least make it a point to have an answer beyond "because we're making things look cool," for such potential interview fodder.

This does have a reason, because there is an enormous segment of the gaming population (much less the greater populace) who are disconnected from appropriate gender relations. I'm not talking about feminist/man-hating tropes, but general respect for your peer (regardless of which chromosome you paired with). There is a mindset often parodied with making sandwiches and popping out babies, that is actually prevalent enough to be troublesome. There is an even worse mindset of (as previously noted) justice-warriors who take the exact opposite tact to the point that they turn themselves into the trope they strive to dismiss (aka - man-hating femnazis).

And overall, there is a general dismissal of personal responsibility for these things. That just because you aren't acting out, your willingness to support those who do shouldn't matter. I'm just as guilty about this as a great many others (I've several highly misogynist friends who I cannot speak against lest I enjoy the wrath of the collective group as "one of those feminists"). If this is amongst a group of relatively intelligent and socially conscious individuals, I deeply fear for those who are so trapped in gaming culture they don't consider any other social circle as viable. Without that greater interaction, that greater critique by virtue of seeing the wider world, these people will never be given the chance to understand where they're in the wrong.

So for them, it requires a conscious effort from Browder, Metzen, and everyone else who designs the world they inhabit, to help socialize them in some relative capacity.
Thank you Cantus, I do not feel like such a crazy person now.
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Old 11-23-2013, 10:08 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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I understand what people are saying and agree with to a point, but copying and pasting this response.

There's a gap between sexism and sex appeal. Even feminists that I know consider some of these images sexy rather than sexist. Hell my closest friend has a crush on Kerrigan looking exactly like that.

I'm not saying women don't consider some images sexist, but I'm tired of people assuming that only straight white men like looking at half-naked women.
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Old 11-23-2013, 10:10 AM
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At last a legitimate criticism to engage! Would you care to elaborate?
I feel the interview speaks well enough on its own. It's very impartial - it's just a recount of how it went down, and people can draw their own conclusions. Opinion pieces insert the author's own biases (by definition), and I feel the interview kinda goes into a rant on the issue at large and then throwing the whole weight of that against Browder. Which I think is a touch unfair.

Even makes me wonder if he didn't ask those questions at the end specifically to get ammunition for his second piece, which I think cheapens the whole affair.
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Old 11-23-2013, 10:12 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I feel the interview speaks well enough on its own. It's very impartial - it's just a recount of how it went down, and people can draw their own conclusions. Opinion pieces insert the author's own biases (by definition), and I feel the interview kinda goes into a rant on the issue at large and then throwing the whole weight of that against Browder. Which I think is a touch unfair.

Even makes me wonder if he didn't ask those questions at the end specifically to get ammunition for his second piece, which I think cheapens the whole affair.
I dunno, I didn't quite get that vibe, though I think it's a fair interpretation.

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Now, I don’t know if Browder meant for it to come across that way, and he could well have misinterpreted the bottom line of my questioning. If so, that’s fair and understandable, and I apologize for using him as an example. Also, I very much appreciate that he said he’d at least take the feedback to mind.
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I understand what people are saying and agree with to a point, but copying and pasting this response.

There's a gap between sexism and sex appeal. Even feminists that I know consider some of these images sexy rather than sexist. Hell my closest friend has a crush on Kerrigan looking exactly like that.

I'm not saying women don't consider some images sexist, but I'm tired of people assuming that only straight white men like looking at half-naked women.
And I get that! But There should be a balance, having some characters or skins like that is fine, but when they're 90% of characters and skins can you understand why some people might ask if there are plans to address that?
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Old 11-23-2013, 10:22 AM
Odok Odok is offline

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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
I understand what people are saying and agree with to a point, but copying and pasting this response.

There's a gap between sexism and sex appeal. Even feminists that I know consider some of these images sexy rather than sexist. Hell my closest friend has a crush on Kerrigan looking exactly like that.

I'm not saying women don't consider some images sexist, but I'm tired of people assuming that only straight white men like looking at half-naked women.
There's still an imbalance of sex appeal applied to male and female characters. And no, hulking muscled man-beasts aren't sex appeal - it's power fantasy (and to Blizzard's credit, they do have a lot of empowered female characters).

I don't have an issue with sexy characters, I consider that to be part of the fun and fantasy. But there's an issue when you, for example, have Alexstraza and Sylvanas and Jaina and no lean, bare-chested, toned-but-not-hulking male night elf purring about the power of nature.

And I'm not talking about some "dude in a banana hammock" hyperbole you always see. But something like this is a good deal of sex appeal without going overboard.
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Old 11-23-2013, 10:36 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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I think this all boils down to "what is sexualized." And I feel there is a great feminist hypocrisy here.

Namely those buffed up, chiseled by Michelangelo dudes are not sexualized males, rather they are power fantasies, but those shapely women are, apparently.
And hey, lets run with that premise, just for a moment, my natural next question is "What is a female power fantasy then?" I've only once got a reply to this question (generally it's total SJW silence) and the answer was a hot woman in a catsuit... yeah.

And let's turn to the flipside of the matter, what is a sexualized male? Not being a woman or into men I can't quite say with certainty, but watching one program equally dedicated to women (probably more) as to men, The Vampire Diares, I get to see... a lot of shirtless, sculptured dudes which I am pretty sure aren't thrown in for no reason.

And here comes the big irony, this is a picture from the article:



Doesn't that look like a shirtless, sculptured Illidan at the forefront? Yeah, where are the cries how he and many other male models are objectifying men?

*crickets*

So really this is a soapbox and a hypocritical one at that.
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Old 11-23-2013, 10:47 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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My guess is that Bishonen males are an example of a sexualized male.
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Old 11-23-2013, 10:51 AM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Originally Posted by Odok View Post
I don't have an issue with sexy characters, I consider that to be part of the fun and fantasy. But there's an issue when you, for example, have Alexstraza and Sylvanas and Jaina and no lean, bare-chested, toned-but-not-hulking male night elf purring about the power of nature.

And I'm not talking about some "dude in a banana hammock" hyperbole you always see. But something like this is a good deal of sex appeal without going overboard.
That Blood Elf is on a whole different level. Only Alexstraza is even a little close. Sylvanas, and especially Jaina are very far away from that.
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Old 11-23-2013, 10:53 AM
Odok Odok is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
I think this all boils down to "what is sexualized." And I feel there is a great feminist hypocrisy here.

Namely those buffed up, chiseled by Michelangelo dudes are not sexualized males, rather they are power fantasies, but those shapely women are, apparently.
And hey, lets run with that premise, just for a moment, my natural next question is "What is a female power fantasy then?" I've only once got a reply to this question (generally it's total SJW silence) and the answer was a hot woman in a catsuit... yeah.
One

Two

Three

Four (and yes that's she-hulk)

There's no such thing as a "female power fantasy." There's just "power fantasy."
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Old 11-23-2013, 10:57 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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There's still an imbalance of sex appeal applied to male and female characters. And no, hulking muscled man-beasts aren't sex appeal - it's power fantasy (and to Blizzard's credit, they do have a lot of empowered female characters).

I don't have an issue with sexy characters, I consider that to be part of the fun and fantasy. But there's an issue when you, for example, have Alexstraza and Sylvanas and Jaina and no lean, bare-chested, toned-but-not-hulking male night elf purring about the power of nature.

And I'm not talking about some "dude in a banana hammock" hyperbole you always see. But something like this is a good deal of sex appeal without going overboard.
I admit there's an imbalance, but people fail to phrase that. I think it's safe to say that women aren't into the Incredible Hulk, but I've seen quite a few fangirls freak out over Movie Thor and Twilight Jacob.

Here's my issue regarding sexualized men, women don't have a unified idea of what they're into. I've seen and known women who fawn over Trolls, either the skinny and/or the bulky ones. I have a friend who specifically fawns over male blood elves, and iirc there are women who enjoy shirtless, lean Illidan along with pretty boy Arthas and Kalec.

Then you got those CW/UPN shows like Smallville, Supernatural, and Vampire Diaries with bulky but covered men with Supernatural specifically pushing "Winchest". Then you have GoT and Spartacus where while both men are powerful, lean, and attractive, Sparatcus is able to do so half naked with more passionate sex.

So basically I'm agreeing with you but at the same time saying that there's no universal "This is a sexy guy". Doesn't mean they shouldn't try.
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SoL: 20 something know it alls telling other 20 something know it alls they know everything.
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Originally Posted by kobebyarlant View Post
All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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Old 11-23-2013, 10:57 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
I think this all boils down to "what is sexualized." And I feel there is a great feminist hypocrisy here.

Namely those buffed up, chiseled by Michelangelo dudes are not sexualized males, rather they are power fantasies, but those shapely women are, apparently.
And hey, lets run with that premise, just for a moment, my natural next question is "What is a female power fantasy then?" I've only once got a reply to this question (generally it's total SJW silence) and the answer was a hot woman in a catsuit... yeah.

And let's turn to the flipside of the matter, what is a sexualized male? Not being a woman or into men I can't quite say with certainty, but watching one program equally dedicated to women (probably more) as to men, The Vampire Diares, I get to see... a lot of shirtless, sculptured dudes which I am pretty sure aren't thrown in for no reason.

And here comes the big irony, this is a picture from the article:



Doesn't that look like a shirtless, sculptured Illidan at the forefront? Yeah, where are the cries how he and many other male models are objectifying men?

*crickets*

So really this is a soapbox and a hypocritical one at that.
1. Have you ever seen Michelangelo's women? (Note, this is hyperbole, I need to label it so people don't scream about feminists being mean to Michelangelo or something).

2. I don't think many women have an issue with Michelangelo's sculptures though? At least it's not something I've ever heard of. The question of "What's a female power fantasy" is a good one though that should be asked and analyzed more often! I think Samus Pre-Other M is popular but I'm not 100% sure.

3. Thing is, Illidan's not really featured all that often. Shirtless guys are far and away less common than bikini ladies (All shivara, Ysera, Alexstraza, Sylvanas, etc...) Moreover, Illidan's able to get shit done himself or a threat, whereas 90% of the time we deal with bikini ladies they need our help.

People would -want- to be illidan, I dunno if that's quite as true for the other characters.

4. What I'm hearing from you is "One guy with his shirt off means I don't have to put any more thought into this"
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