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  #26  
Old 12-01-2013, 12:24 PM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Originally Posted by Kir the Wizard View Post
Yeah, that's right! How about...

The Alliance "high" elves are a useless, iconsequential, annoying race without a future, and Yaska is a foolish fool for ever liking them, instead of the much superior, TRUE high elves - the Sin'dorei!

Woohoo!
The blood elves aren't even worth being used as fertilizers. Useless waste of flesh. Prissy little entitled and whiny bitches.
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  #27  
Old 12-01-2013, 12:24 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Originally Posted by Leviathon View Post
We might not like parts of what Blizzard does but it's silly to say they don't care.
Agreed. When you put that much effort into something, there's going to be at least some level of pride of ownership, no matter how mercenary the motive.
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  #28  
Old 12-01-2013, 12:27 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Originally Posted by Leviathon View Post
We might not like parts of what Blizzard does but it's silly to say they don't care.
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  #29  
Old 12-01-2013, 12:28 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Originally Posted by Yaskaleh View Post
The blood elves aren't even worth being used as fertilizers. Useless waste of flesh. Prissy little entitled and whiny bitches.
The blood elves aren't a fringe barely clinging to life. They have their own kingdom and capital city.
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  #30  
Old 12-01-2013, 12:38 PM
Falarson Falarson is offline

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Did I ever say they don't care? I know they care. They care a great deal.

I just asked if they cared as much as before or what.

I feel a slight change in philosophy that makes me feel a bit annoyed. Basically they cut some freedoms they used to have and streamlined not only the game mechanics, but their work too much.

This, in turn, resulted into faster content updates, but much less exploration of "side content" in general (which includes books and other complementary material). We have less comic books and manga. Books are coming in the same ammount, but their themes are always relevant with the current content and don't really explore the lore. They just expand some character thoughts and events. Last book that had its "own lore" was Twilight of the Aspects. Other examples are The Shattering and Rise of the Horde (I personally tend to enjoy that kind of book better, at least in the Warcraft setting).

They just follow their priorities and have a bit less of fun in general. That's all I'm perceiving here.
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  #31  
Old 12-01-2013, 12:42 PM
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Blizzard 2013.
Take flight, little fuck. Be free.
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  #32  
Old 12-01-2013, 12:42 PM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
The blood elves aren't a fringe barely clinging to life. They have their own kingdom and capital city.
Well, personally I'd rather be on the fringe and barely clinging to life while upholding my pride and integrity than selling out everything and myself like a cheap crack whore.
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  #33  
Old 12-01-2013, 12:43 PM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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The blood elves aren't a fringe barely clinging to life. They have their own kingdom and capital city.
Aren't they currently lacking both a king and half of said capital?
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  #34  
Old 12-01-2013, 12:52 PM
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Blizzard 2013.
Take flight, little fuck. Be free.
I still like Blizzard, though. I don't think that'll ever change. They're my favorite creative studio (yeah, even over movie and animation studios). I take great inspiration on their art and general philolosphy.

The story developments that have been going on, the setting, the characters in general are still compelling. I'm just a wee bit concerned about the way they are ignoring certain stuff in favor of getting things done fast. Nothing else.
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  #35  
Old 12-01-2013, 12:55 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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It makes me feel better if I just blame Activision. It absolves Blizzard of all responsibility.
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  #36  
Old 12-01-2013, 12:56 PM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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That makes the game better.... how?
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  #37  
Old 12-01-2013, 12:58 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Originally Posted by Falarson View Post
Did I ever say they don't care? I know they care. They care a great deal.

I just asked if they cared as much as before or what.

I feel a slight change in philosophy that makes me feel a bit annoyed. Basically they cut some freedoms they used to have and streamlined not only the game mechanics, but their work too much.

This, in turn, resulted into faster content updates, but much less exploration of "side content" in general (which includes books and other complementary material). We have less comic books and manga. Books are coming in the same ammount, but their themes are always relevant with the current content and don't really explore the lore. They just expand some character thoughts and events. Last book that had its "own lore" was Twilight of the Aspects. Other examples are The Shattering and Rise of the Horde (I personally tend to enjoy that kind of book better, at least in the Warcraft setting).

They just follow their priorities and have a bit less of fun in general. That's all I'm perceiving here.
How do you define care? Cause that's the confusing part. We don't see the Ashbringer type stuff but we have better questing and in Cata we had a Deathwing-Dragon Soul moment in a dungeon with cutscenes in the raid.

We don't get as many comics because they don't sell. Even then we still get comics, novellas, and e-books along with free short stories about factions and characters.

People keep complaining that they don't want to learn the lore through books, they want to learn it in game which is what Blizzard has been trying to do.
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #38  
Old 12-01-2013, 01:00 PM
Temo Temo is offline

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Originally Posted by Falarson View Post
The question here is: Does Blizzard really care enough about the game at this point to keep putting this kind of stuff, or they do just exacly what they have to and nothing more? I honestly feel we're missing flavor in general (dungeon side-quests and events are just an example of this).
- Whenever you get a Titan Runestone, turn music off and voice sound up.

- The solo scenarios in 5.2 are mostly lore and flavor ("Now if I were a dwarf I would just start randomly pushing buttons...")

- Tak-Tak in 5.1 (especially this one)

- For random flavor, look for this guy, and there are more examples like this, but im alt-tabbing waiting for the next pull xD

There is still a lot of stuff like this, you just aren't paying attention anymore. I guess if I had played as long as some of you, id think the same way. Disenchanted with the game, incapable of realizing that the problem is not the game... =/

Last edited by Temo; 12-01-2013 at 01:05 PM..
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  #39  
Old 12-01-2013, 01:01 PM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Originally Posted by Pajamasalad View Post
It makes me feel better if I just blame Activision. It absolves Blizzard of all responsibility.
Join us in giving up hope! I used to view Blizzard and Bioware as the best game companies. Now I've got no trust in Bioware and Blizzard just disappoints me. Hopefully Obsidian will deliver something good with Project: Eternity.
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  #40  
Old 12-01-2013, 01:06 PM
Falarson Falarson is offline

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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
How do you define care? Cause that's the confusing part. We don't see the Ashbringer type stuff but we have better questing and in Cata we had a Deathwing-Dragon Soul moment in a dungeon with cutscenes in the raid.

We don't get as many comics because they don't sell. Even then we still get comics, novellas, and e-books along with free short stories about factions and characters.

People keep complaining that they don't want to learn the lore through books, they want to learn it in game which is what Blizzard has been trying to do.
In this case, care is reflected through their intention of adding depth to the game. In lore, that would be expanding the universe.

Let's go and make an analogy between Escape from Durnholde and Well of Eternity. We don't see Vashj there. We don't really explore the area further than a little bit of the Azshara courtyard. There's nothing in that dungeon besides whatever happen in its linear progression. You hardly go to a dungeon for something else than loot. You don't go to watch an event, to get a recipe, to complete stuff you might have bypassed the first time.

Sounds weird, but this vertical approach is taking a great toll from the game, in my view. Content needs to be more horizontal in general, because that was, among other things, what defined World of Warcraft as a very distinct game in the first place.

Care, for me, is reflected most blatantly in what we call flavor content and side content.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Temo View Post
- Whenever you get a Titan Runestone, turn music off and voice sound up.

- The solo scenarios in 5.2 are mostly lore and flavor ("Now if I were a dwarf I would just start randomly pushing buttons...")

- Tak-Tak in 5.1 (especially this one)

- For random flavor, look for this guy, and there are more examples like this, but im alt-tabbing waiting for the next pull xD

There is still a lot of stuff like this, you just aren't paying attention anymore. I guess if I had played as long as some of you, id think the same way. Disenchanted with the game, incapable of realizing that the problem is not the game... =/
While it may be true that flavor content still exists, nothing of what you menctioned is the same flavor of flavor (?) I'm talking about. I threw some examples above.
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  #41  
Old 12-01-2013, 01:53 PM
Temo Temo is offline

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Originally Posted by Falarson View Post
Let's go and make an analogy between Escape from Durnholde and Well of Eternity. We don't see Vashj there. We don't really explore the area further than a little bit of the Azshara courtyard.
Because we just go and extract the Dragon Soul, nothing else (preferrably). Also, Cata as all rush rush, players whining there was not enough content and they were all bored in orgrimmar. Adding flavor takes time and people :3

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You hardly go to a dungeon for something else than loot.
Challenge modes, my friend

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You don't go to watch an event, to get a recipe, to complete stuff you might have bypassed the first time.
The quest for the food carts at some point, requires you to go to the temple of the Jade Serpent dungeon, and fight an extra "boss" for the recipe :3
For the "complete stuff" part, you have the achievement system :3
And to watch an event... maybe not in a dungeon, but there's a nice event in krarasang you can attend :3

Last edited by Temo; 12-01-2013 at 02:03 PM..
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  #42  
Old 12-01-2013, 02:03 PM
Falarson Falarson is offline

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Originally Posted by Temo View Post
Because we just go and extract the Dragon Soul, nothing else (preferrably).
I would prefer otherwise, though.

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Challenge modes, my friend
Sure, but it's not the "explorational and adventurous" kind of thing I'm talking about here.

Quote:
The quest for the food carts at some point, requires you to go to the temple of the Jade Serpent dungeon, and fight an extra "boss" for the recipe :3
For the "complete stuff" part, you have the achievement system :3
And to watch an event... maybe not in a dungeon, but there's a nice event in krarasang you can attend :3
Both of these are pretty good examples and it proves they may be trying to go back and do these things again.

These examples are rare and recent, though. I certainly hope it means we'll be seeing more of these in the future.

Now that I think about it, the warlock quest is another good example (I haven't done it, though. My warlock is lvl 40).

If we see more of these, I hope they make them just a little bit grindy, in order to spend some time in places we woud otherwise just steamroll through, and help create a bit of attachment to the new dungeons and zones. Back in the day, this was always the case. I'd like to see the return of attunement quests, but with their purpose changed to something different than gating. Maybe unlocking an extra boss or something like that.
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  #43  
Old 12-01-2013, 02:09 PM
Temo Temo is offline

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The wanderers event was added in 5.0

Also, it would be nice to mention the Lorewalkers faction: An exploration grind that rewards you with Lorewalker Cho telling you the story you just discovered and completed by flying everywhere. There are some extra conversations with Cho in 5.2 (I really liked this one) and 5.3 (When he explains what just happened in the scenario "Blood in the snow").

There was also an exploration achievement that involved finding the drunken master statues or some stuff like that. Most of them were in peaks, and some of them, especially the one in Mount Neverest, were supposed to be difficult to get, because of the structure of the mountain. This was trivialized by flying, but the intent was there
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  #44  
Old 12-01-2013, 02:17 PM
Falarson Falarson is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Temo View Post
The wanderers event was added in 5.0

Also, it would be nice to mention the Lorewalkers faction: An exploration grind that rewards you with Lorewalker Cho telling you the story you just discovered and completed by flying everywhere. There are some extra conversations with Cho in 5.2 (I really liked this one) and 5.3 (When he explains what just happened in the scenario "Blood in the snow").

There was also an exploration achievement that involved finding the drunken masters or some stuff like that. Most of them were in peaks, and some of them, especially the one in Mount Neverest, were supposed to be difficult to get, because of the structure of the mountain. this was trivialized by flying, but the intent was there
Lorewalkers was a very good idea, but I think the fact it was really easy and you could get done with it in about an hour trivialized the content a bit.

It helped flesh out Pandaria's story in a great deal, but they were just isolated stories. Maybe if the current-day Pandaren characters were involved in them, and played out through more quests instead of an one-go event it would have been better.

I'm already nostalgic about Operation Shieldwall/Domination Hold quests, because they were done through an extensive gameplay time and played out bit by bit. This tells a lot about the emotional attachment that we develop thorugh story-driven gameplay versus passive story developments.

I don't want the lore to be told via daily quests grinds, but I feel like "the story is the reward" is a good way to do things overall.

Also, archaeology in general needs to be better integrated into the gameplay.
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  #45  
Old 12-01-2013, 02:42 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I think it's a safe bet that gameplay > lore, which further means they don't really care if races have lost a lot of badassery and turned into shit, so long as their gameplay is still good.
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  #46  
Old 12-01-2013, 02:47 PM
Caith Caith is offline

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Gameplay>lore is a given, but I talk with them every blizzcon, game launches, and at Blizzard HQ itself and they all are as passionate as ever. Sometimes we disagree with their vision, but they never loose passion except maybe Tseric. Man poor guy.
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  #47  
Old 12-01-2013, 02:54 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by Caith View Post
Gameplay>lore is a given, but I talk with them every blizzcon, game launches, and at Blizzard HQ itself and they all are as passionate as ever. Sometimes we disagree with their vision, but they never loose passion except maybe Tseric. Man poor guy.
Whatever their passion may be, it certainly isn't for making races as badass as they should be.
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  #48  
Old 12-01-2013, 02:59 PM
Odok Odok is offline

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I think Blizzard cares immensely about its games. But an ever-increasing number of factors have been weighing the company down over the years: over-extension (biting off more than they can chew), poor oversight and management, key developers assuming an administrative rather than active role, a rapidly changing market, and as with all aging things, a loss of that youthful passion the founders once held.

Really I think it's that last bit. I get a feeling like the veterans don't really have that spark that makes good things great, or at least have less of a means of getting that spark into the game. And they've been very... reluctant to foster the next generation's "spark" in its own way, instead trying to force the older philosophies on the younger work force. Fitting into the company atmosphere is huge at Blizzard, and while that's great for ensuring consistency and minimizing friction between teams, it's also a poor way to stimulate growth and adaptation.

For example, comic book inspiration doesn't fly like it did back in the late 80s and 90s. There's a huge demand at the moment for heavy, cerebral undertones to everything. Other avenues have adjusted: just look at how well Nolan's gritty, philosophical superhero movies compare to the source material of old. But Blizzard clings to the almost banal innocence of what was around 20 years ago, and tries to force that square peg into today's round hole, which manifests in bizarre, awkward, and tiresome ways.

And you can't just point to design strategies. You point to the Timeless Isle and say "psh, well yeah, look at all this boring ass grinding. Of course that's falling flat. Artificial <insert buzz word here>." And yet you look at Dark Souls or Minecraft, which are also grind-heavy games, and they're flourishing. The difference being that the latter is much more in tune with the current playerbase, by virtue of letting players show off either through skill or ingenuity, while WoW clings to time investment and the novelty of the world it's created.

TLDR Blizzard cares, but caring isn't enough.
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  #49  
Old 12-01-2013, 03:02 PM
Caith Caith is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
Whatever their passion may be, it certainly isn't for making races as badass as they should be.
People like their characters and have become attached to them. You were here when the druid tree form changed and human female eye glitch, you saw the massive uproar over change. They have always stated changing class specs is the biggest reason people leave in their descriptions. Now imagine you log in and all your characters are completely different. This is why new character models have taken so long. They have to have 7 meetings to make sure Human noses look better, but are near identical to what they are now, so as not to upset the player base.
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  #50  
Old 12-01-2013, 03:12 PM
DerpiusMaximus DerpiusMaximus is offline

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Archaeology should be updated to have something similar to the Lorewalkers. I think it'd be a great way to get people more familiar with Azeroth's backstory and lore through little cutscenes.
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