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Old 04-15-2014, 05:04 PM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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Panda Taran Zhu



Discuss. The issues caused to Pandaria were the fault of those who came to Pandaria.

He was right to speak up against Anduin: If the vale hadn't been opened, Garrosh wouldn't have got the heart. At most Garrosh would have done an all out assault sooner; but without Sha backing.

He is the first one to call out the heroes for being murder happy vagabonds, and was right to do so given that both sides had, prior to questing, had been enslaving Pandaren in Jade Forest. He was only reinforced that the Alliance; with their giant invasion air ship, were lying when they said they were there for peace.

Do bear in mind for discussion: Do not apply YOUR knowledge when speaking of how unjustified Zhu was. Speak with what -he- knew in mind.
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Old 04-15-2014, 05:21 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Taran Zhu: War and fighting is wrong, now if you'll excuse me I'm off to kill my enemies with no remorse or restraint.
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It's really been a case of Blizzard shitting on the Alliance and Horde storyline, but with the added bonus of the Alliance fanbase requesting to shit further on the Horde fanbase.
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Old 04-15-2014, 05:27 PM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
Taran Zhu: War and fighting is wrong, now if you'll excuse me I'm off to kill my enemies with no remorse or restraint.
It had been said on numerous occasions that the Pandaren had tried for peace and understanding with the violent races of Pandaria, and never stopped. Not to mention he was playing a defensive game, save when it came to taking out the Sha; wherein he went on the offensive. Shado-pan played a defensive battle against foes for their survival, a foe they were willing to talk to. This is much different than the constant fighting and disregard for life he had seen the Alliance and Horde capable of.

Note how he didn't go to war with Alliance or Horde despite them being the obvious cause of many issues. Instead his first act was the save the lives of their leaders; perhaps hoping they would listen.
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Old 04-15-2014, 05:31 PM
Al'Akir Al'Akir is offline

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What's the point of this discussion? To corroborate the story that a war fought by foreigners on their land had collateral damage? Then yeah, that's correct. But is doesn't put Zhu in the right. Had the world done exactly as Zhu had wanted from the start, then Pandaria would have been majorly boned by now.



If we relegate the discussion to only what Zhu knew when he knew it, then of course he is 'right'. Likewise, everyone who ever believed the world was flat are also therefore 'right', in such a bizarro sense of the word.

Ask a young child what the answer to the equation 5 - -2 = ___ and you would likely be given the answer of 3. It's correct from the child's point of view, when the child is still learning the simplest basics of arithmetic. "Five minus minus two? Five super-minus two? Three!"

But no, the answer is not 3. The answer is 7, and the child was wrong, even though he or she didn't know it.


And so what if he was 'right'? Even if the Horde and Alliance has listened to him and just went away, the Zandalari sure wouldn't have. Who would have been around to fight off the Thunder King? Zhu and the Shado-Pan were outmatched, no question about it. If the Vale hadn't been opened up, who would have prevented it from being overrun by the Mogu? The Golden Lotus seemed a bit outmatched there. True that the H&A brought out the Sha, but whats to say that wouldn't have happened due to the Mogu anyway?

Yeah, the Invasion of Pandaria caused some trouble in the sacred valley that almost nobody had ever seen, but it sure is better than the alternative.
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Old 04-15-2014, 05:31 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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He never tried reasoning with the Zandalar tribe, who want to find a home so they can survive.

A Pandaren questiver even sends you to kill "Zandalar Refugees" in one quest.

Instead of Zhu's whining, we could've used that time for some sympathetic Orc characters besides Thrall and Saurfang, or more characterization from Ji(who the entirity of MOP seemed out to prove him wrong), and Aysa.
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It's really been a case of Blizzard shitting on the Alliance and Horde storyline, but with the added bonus of the Alliance fanbase requesting to shit further on the Horde fanbase.
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Old 04-15-2014, 05:37 PM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
He never tried reasoning with the Zandalar tribe, who want to find a home so they can survive.

A Pandaren questiver even sends you to kill "Zandalar Refugees" in one quest.

Instead of Zhu's whining, we could've used that time for some sympathetic Orc characters besides Thrall and Saurfang, or more characterization from Ji(who the entirity of MOP seemed out to prove him wrong), and Aysa.
Zandalari attacked and sacked a pandaren settlement then went after another. Then resurrected the most dangerous person in the history of Pandaria, then started an invasion of all of Pandaria.

The sheer scale of the attack warranted a quick response.

Also, referring to Al'akir, the majority of issues in Pandaria were casued by the empowering of the Sha. If not for that, Shado-pan and the rest of Pandaria may have handled themselves.
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  #7  
Old 04-15-2014, 05:42 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Taran Zhu

A veteran finds himself and his people caught in the middle of a war they had nothing to do with. His attitude is entirely justified and not to mention, as said by Shaohao, the Pandaren are prideful people, so him not becoming bff with the Alliance also makes sense. But of course Alliance crybabies look past all that stuff and wish to kill him for not kissing their ass for an entire expansion.
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Old 04-15-2014, 05:43 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anne_Neritas View Post
Zandalari attacked and sacked a pandaren settlement then went after another. Then resurrected the most dangerous person in the history of Pandaria, then started an invasion of all of Pandaria.

The sheer scale of the attack warranted a quick response.
Lets be honest though the Horde and Alliance have done worse to eachother, particularly in Pandaria where all good qualities about the Horde were thrown in the trashcan in a poorly thought out, and half assed attempt to please the Alliance fanatics. On a related subject, most Alliance fans would just be happy with better questing, more racial representation, and tighter stories.

Also Zhu didn't even try to reason with the Zandalari, they want a home, there's no reason he can't offer some part of Pandaria for the Zandalar. If there are still a few extremists, he could fight them. But its rather hypocritical for Zhu to be all about killing Zandalar without remorse, then preaching fighting is wrong.
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Old 04-15-2014, 05:43 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
Taran Zhu

A veteran finds himself and his people caught in the middle of a war they had nothing to do with. His attitude is entirely justified and not to mention, as said by Shaohao, the Pandaren are prideful people, so him not becoming bff with the Alliance also makes sense. But of course Alliance crybabies look past all that stuff and wish to kill him for not kissing their ass for an entire expansion.
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Old 04-15-2014, 05:45 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Also go figure that Zhu only mentions to Garrosh, he's met nice Trolls, and Tauren, never orcs.

Its as if Mists writers knew they've utterly undone all the orcs development, and identity so they could be poorly thought out villains.
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It's really been a case of Blizzard shitting on the Alliance and Horde storyline, but with the added bonus of the Alliance fanbase requesting to shit further on the Horde fanbase.
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Old 04-15-2014, 05:49 PM
Al'Akir Al'Akir is offline

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Originally Posted by Anne_Neritas View Post
Also, referring to Al'akir, the majority of issues in Pandaria were casued by the empowering of the Sha. If not for that, Shado-pan and the rest of Pandaria may have handled themselves.
Forgive me if I'm forgetting some lore from the expansion, but apart from the Mantid, Yaungol, and the sha-corrupted pandaren (all of whom I didn't mention) the rest of Pandaria's problems didn't have a sha-related empowerment. The Mogu and the Zandalari seemed to be doing just fine before the sha awakening, and again after the sha were defeated. I also recall the Shado-pan on Thunder Isle relying on the H&A just to secure the south-eastern half of the island, and Zhu still nearly getting killed in the process.
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Old 04-15-2014, 05:49 PM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
Lets be honest though the Horde and Alliance have done worse to eachother, particularly in Pandaria where all good qualities about the Horde were thrown in the trashcan in a poorly thought out, and half assed attempt to please the Alliance fanatics. On a related subject, most Alliance fans would just be happy with better questing, more racial representation, and tighter stories.

Also Zhu didn't even try to reason with the Zandalari, they want a home, there's no reason he can't offer some part of Pandaria for the Zandalar. If there are still a few extremists, he could fight them. But its rather hypocritical for Zhu to be all about killing Zandalar without remorse, then preaching fighting is wrong.
Well, the Shado-pan do try to pierce straight into the Thunder King's domain with minimal killing (and succeed). Shado-pan based quests having to do with Zanda, tend to have to deal with as little killing as possible.

Either way, you're trying to justify a full on invasion of every part of Pandaria with the implication that Zhu should put aside defending his people for the sake of approaching peace while his lands are currently being destroyed.

May have been different if the Trolls hadn't done a full on assault, if they hadn't forced the Pandaren to defend themselves. There is a difference between seeking peace and rolling over, after all.
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Old 04-15-2014, 05:52 PM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
Taran Zhu: War and fighting is wrong, now if you'll excuse me I'm off to kill my enemies with no remorse or restraint.
yeeep
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Old 04-15-2014, 05:53 PM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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Originally Posted by Al'Akir View Post
Forgive me if I'm forgetting some lore from the expansion, but apart from the Mantid, Yaungol, and the sha-corrupted pandaren (all of whom I didn't mention) the rest of Pandaria's problems didn't have a sha-related empowerment. The Mogu and the Zandalari seemed to be doing just fine before the sha awakening, and again after the sha were defeated. I also recall the Shado-pan on Thunder Isle relying on the H&A just to secure the south-eastern half of the island, and Zhu still nearly getting killed in the process.
Shado-pan had established a perimeter in the Thunder Kings domain at the start. They were being forced into an open war with the Thunder King because the Alliance and Horde's brute forced attacks.

The Zandalari got a good start on Pandaria because the Shado-pan had been diverted away to deal with the Yaungol, Sha, and Mantid. If not for the empowering of two Sha who attacked the Shado-pan Monastary. If not for the attack of the Yaungol on Kun-Lai, then the Shado-pan would have handled the Troll issue with no issue.

The Mogu established a lot of their power by getting into the vale after the Celestials opened the gates (in pre-lv 90 vale, when people are still setting up, there are no mogu).
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Old 04-15-2014, 05:54 PM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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nowhere does it say that the pandaren ever tried to even reach out an olive branch to ANY race that they fight. they just kill 'em and question "OMG THEY STILL HATE US".
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Fuck your dumb gamergate shit I'd rather be pegged by Sylvanas than read it.
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Just remember, the Alliance is only ever allowed to passively defend itself against the Horde, and Taurajo was Azeroth's equivalent of the Holocaust.
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Old 04-15-2014, 05:56 PM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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nowhere does it say that the pandaren ever tried to even reach out an olive branch to ANY race that they fight. they just kill 'em and question "OMG THEY STILL HATE US".
Pandaren stated that they wanted to start a dialogue with the mantid but were denied.

One of the first quests in Jade Forest has Cho saying the Pandaren never gave up on peace with the Saurok.

Yaungol didn't attack them: they stayed in their steppes up till the Mantid forced them out and they began a wholesale slaughter of Pandaren.
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Old 04-15-2014, 05:59 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Originally Posted by Anne_Neritas View Post
Either way, you're trying to justify a full on invasion of every part of Pandaria with the implication that Zhu should put aside defending his people for the sake of approaching peace while his lands are currently being destroyed.

May have been different if the Trolls hadn't done a full on assault, if they hadn't forced the Pandaren to defend themselves. There is a difference between seeking peace and rolling over, after all.
Not saying, Zhu shouldn't fight back, but after he make some attempt at peace or reasoning with the Zandalar, either before or after their battles.

All signs point that the Zandalar are just killed to the last unless they can escape.

EDIT: And the real thing is Zhu's screentime could've been used for some sympathetic orcs, or to the Wandering Isle Pandaren.
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Old 04-15-2014, 06:01 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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I too believe that the character who was so hateful that he got possessed by an eldritch manifestation of hatred had rational beliefs.
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Old 04-15-2014, 06:04 PM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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yeah okay the mogu were and still are giant jerks but the shado-pan have been in a giant tug of war with them for thousands of years and never once thought "hey, maybe we can find -one- mogu who doesn't agree with their 'enslave everyone' philosophy"
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Old 04-15-2014, 06:07 PM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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Not saying, Zhu shouldn't fight back, but after he make some attempt at peace or reasoning with the Zandalar, either before or after their battles.

All signs point that the Zandalar are just killed to the last unless they can escape.
No signs point to them trying to escape. Nor would Zhu be able to stop Horde or Alliance should he want them sparred: assuming they would want to be sparred in the first place. They do seem to have a rather Orc like mentality of fighting: victory or death.

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I too believe that the character who was so hateful that he got possessed by an eldritch manifestation of hatred had rational beliefs.
Sha don't need much to possess someone. And they were empowered by the Horde and Alliances coming. Nor was his hate unjustified since he was right and they were fucking up his home.

That said, don't you defend the Scarlets and Garithos?

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yeah okay the mogu were and still are giant jerks but the shado-pan have been in a giant tug of war with them for thousands of years and never once thought "hey, maybe we can find -one- mogu who doesn't agree with their 'enslave everyone' philosophy"
We don't know that.
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Old 04-15-2014, 06:09 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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According to Shadows of the Horde, many Zandalari aren't used to fighting, so I'm doubtful they have that mentality.
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Old 04-15-2014, 06:11 PM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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Originally Posted by JorgeAxe View Post
According to Shadows of the Horde, many Zandalari aren't used to fighting, so I'm doubtful they have that mentality.
And not all Orcs are fighters. Doesn't mean they don't still have that mentality. Either way, Shado-pan can't be blamed for the slaughter of Trolls when there were two fleets against them on Thunder Isle and the Shado-pan were openly trying for a more secrative, less slaughter-e, approach.

Still seems as though you're calling for the Shado-pan to roll upon their backs and take it when the Trolls came.
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Old 04-15-2014, 06:12 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Or, you know, despite his complaints about the Alliance, they seem more willing to not fuck up Pandaria while Garrosh doesn't. Being infected by the Sha should've been a humbling moment for him, but it turned him into a bigger dick to even his allies. Where was he during 5.1 when Garrosh was stealing the bell?

You don't have to be friends with the Alliance, but at least acknowledge that the Alliance fights for different reasons than the Horde (Garrosh).
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Old 04-15-2014, 06:13 PM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
Or, you know, despite his complaints about the Alliance, they seem more willing to not fuck up Pandaria while Garrosh doesn't. Being infected by the Sha should've been a humbling moment for him, but it turned him into a bigger dick to even his allies. Where was he during 5.1 when Garrosh was stealing the bell?

You don't have to be friends with the Alliance, but at least acknowledge that the Alliance fights for different reasons than the Horde (Garrosh).
that'd be too hard and would result in the most whining

from the horde playerbase who freak out over the slightest difference
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Fuck your dumb gamergate shit I'd rather be pegged by Sylvanas than read it.
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Just remember, the Alliance is only ever allowed to passively defend itself against the Horde, and Taurajo was Azeroth's equivalent of the Holocaust.
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  #25  
Old 04-15-2014, 06:15 PM
Anne_Neritas Anne_Neritas is offline

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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
Or, you know, despite his complaints about the Alliance, they seem more willing to not fuck up Pandaria while Garrosh doesn't. Being infected by the Sha should've been a humbling moment for him, but it turned him into a bigger dick to even his allies. Where was he during 5.1 when Garrosh was stealing the bell?

You don't have to be friends with the Alliance, but at least acknowledge that the Alliance fights for different reasons than the Horde (Garrosh).
When Taran Zhu approached the Alliance in Jade Forest, he saved their leader, was lied to, and Pandaren had been enslaved by the Alliance prior to this encounter.

After the Monastery he WELCOMES the players as an ally.

I can't speak for 5.1, but there are numerous things he could have been doing, mostly involving the Mogu, Zandalari, Yaungol, and the Celestials.
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