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Old 12-27-2014, 02:54 PM
Valtheria Valtheria is offline

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Default Headcanon: Gilneas

Since I've been online more often recently, I figure I may as well get my views on the invasion of Gilneas off my chest. A lot off it is extrapolation on things we already know and the rest is trying to compose a coherent timeline out of the many, many sources that deal with flight from Gilneas and the worgen joining the Alliance. Personally, I find the necessity of playing both factions and sheer amount of sources necessary to get the full story is insane.

Because I really like Gilnean humans and the Forsaken, it's something I ended up having to get into and even if you don't agree with or think I'm correct, I hope it at least goes a way into explaining my views. For example, I don't hate Sylvanas and why while I certainly see her as evil I still see her as pragmatic more than insane.

Prelude to Gilneas:

Wrathgate:

Prior to the invasion of Gilneas comes the Wrath of the Lich King expansion. The worgen play a minor role due to Arugal's resurrection, but the Forsaken have a fairly important role in 3.0 due to the Battle of Angrathar the Wrathgate.

At the Wrathgate, the Alliance 7th Legion and Horde Kor'kron Guard end up fighting alongside one another against a hoard of undead and vrykul commanded by the Lich King. Unfortunately, Dranosh Saurfang loses his life to Arthas and what follows is one of the most pivotal moments in the Alliance-Horde history of Warcraft.

Grand Apothecary Putress oversees the bombing of the Wrathgate and all soldiers collected there - Alliance, Horde, and Scourge - using the Forsaken's perfected biological superweapon, the Blight. Using the Blight, Putress wounds the Lich King and forces him to retreat and kills everyone else.

In the Horde storyline, Putress is revealed to have done this without authorisation. Varimathras, the dreadlord whom Sylvanas kept as her majordomo ostensibly to ensure he wouldn't act against her, finally acted against her. In a coup that resulted in, according to Sylvanas, deaths numbering in the hundreds, Putress and Varimathas took complete control of the Undercity from the Horde.

Both factions attack the Undercity - the Alliance felling Putress and the Horde felling Varimathas. The Alliance does not see Varimathras and it arguably doesn't matter because they also bore witness to the atrocities that happen to prisoners in the Lordaeron - once an Alliance city and of personal importance to King Varian.

While the Horde was not responsible for the Wrathgate incident, there is a huge degree of culpability for letting Sylvanas and the Royal Apothecary Society have free reign. A fight almost breaks out, but Jaina prevents it by mass-teleporting the Alliance out of the necropolis. Thrall stations Kor'kron Guards to monitor Sylvanas and her people closely from that point forward.

After Wrathgate:

Sylvanas later makes a trek to Northrend Though it's pretty clear that Jaina is the one to meet Uther in the Halls of Reflection due to the Dark Lady's actions later, the only canon account implies that both were at least present in the instance. Either way, once Arthas is dead and Sylvanas is presented with a vial of her blood, she ponders what she should do next.

It is often assumed that "Edge of Night" takes place immediately after this, but I am not inclined to agree with that. Sylvanas is present in Stormrage and does not appear to have the val'kyr there, and does not mention Arthas's secret. While this isn't strong evidence for its placement in and of itself, where she's left off in "Edge of Night" is.

In the end of "Edge of Night", Sylvanas returns to the battlefield seen in one of the visions granted to her by the val'kyr, clearly marking that as the present date. At that time, Garrosh is already Warchief, the invasion of Gilneas is already underway, and the Greymane Wall has broken down. That firmly places it after the cataclysm itself, meaning that it takes place after the initial invasion (the cataclysm happens around level 6 in the worgen starting zone).

This is important because at no point prior to "Edge of Night" can Sylvanas have access to the val'kyr. She has never been able to replenish her forces and goes into Gilneas directly after losing "hundreds" of a minority force of free-willed undead. This doesn't account for the deaths of Forsaken soldiers in Northrend and the fraction that made up the defectors, lowering her available forces significantly.

We are told by Metzen that Sylvanas was "in the doghouse" after the Battle for the Undercity and that she has to move when ordered or risk expulsion from the Horde. With the Scarlet Crusade, Scourge, and Stormpike Guard still credible threats (probably worse due to the decrease in available Forsaken), losing what little protection the Horde offers is not a favourable outcome.

The Invasion of Gilneas:

The Worgen Attack on Gilneas City:

All of this sets the stage for the Gilneas conflict. Garrosh is stated to order Sylvanas into Gilneas to secure it as a port in Lordaeron. Why he doesn't simply secure one of the Thalassian coastal areas or the build in Tirisfal or Silverpine? My personal theory is that Garrosh wants to get as much use as he can out of Sylvanas and ultimately kill all Forsaken but the reason he didn't consider these isn't clear. It's possibly just bad writing.

According to "Curse of the Worgen" Sylvanas didn't invade Gilneas alone - or not first - and was responsible for the Bloodfang worgen's assault on Gilneas City. Ralaar Fangfire (also known by the ridiculous moniker of Alpha Prime) wanted the Scythe of Elune to bolster his Wolfcult's ranks and get revenge on Malfurion Stormrage for banishing him to the Emerald Dream 9,000 years ago. The Bloodfang enter Gilneas through a tunnel system under the Greymane Wall.

I believe that the lack of Forsaken population numbers following Northrend and the coup inspired Sylvanas to seek the aid of her people's former enemy. Of course, they didn't use the tunnels themselves because it was likely not possible to get siege weapons through it. The Forsaken would not take the direct route into Gilneas until the shattering broke down the Greymane Wall, at which point they bring many siege weapons and form Forsaken Forward Command.

This is where the worgen starting zone kicks off. The worgen attack the city and King Greymane must seek the aid of the imprisoned Northgate Rebellion leader Lord Darius Crowley. Crowley proves useful not only for his artillery but the final stand he makes in Light's Dawn Cathedral allows King Greymane, Lord Godfrey, his daughter Lorna Crowley, and the civilians to escape to Duskhaven.

Forsaken Landfall:

At this stage it seems that Genn is already a worgen, having combated worgen each full moon following their arrival during the Third War until (and after) one bit him. Krennan Aranas prevented Genn Greymane's transformation into a worgen through alchemical suppressants in the years following the Third War. He does something similar for the adventurer who stood with Crowley, giving him or her their human mind back though the transformation cannot be reversed.

A Forsaken soldier ambushes this adventurer. The reefs along the coast of Gilneas once provided a barrier against maritime invasion but the tremors caused by the shattering removed this obstacle. The Forsaken came ashore and battle broke out between the Gilneans and the Forsaken... until the shattering plunged the western farmsteads into the sea. The Gilneans gathered their people and fled to Greymane Manor, then the rest of Duskhaven split and sundered.

Tal'doren the Wild Home:

When the Gilnean survivors arrived in Stormglen Village, they were contacted by night elves. Through a druidic ritual performed in the Blackwald's Great Tree Tal'doren, they were able to cure Darius Crowley and many others of their feral instincts but the Scythe was stolen. They stole it back and used it to cure the worgen among Greymane's fraction of survivors. Greymane revealed himself as a worgen and joined forces with Crowley once more.

Not realising that Belysra and her night elves now possessed the Scythe, Pelysra almost banished Ralaar into the Emerald Dream once again; a dark ranger prevented this. Ralaar's late former friend Arvell, in the form of a spirit wolf, ultimately tore the alpha apart and forever ended his hold over the feral worgen.

Lord Vincent Godfrey, disgusted and shocked by the truth about Greymane, kidnapped the king and planned to trade him for Gilneas to the Forsaken. This likely would not work, but the worgen adventurer foiled Godfrey regardless. After they liberate Emberstone Mine, the Forsaken now face down the survivors of Gilneas. Fully united with their worgen in control and their civilians freed from slavery, Gilneas stood more powerful than it had throughout the entire invasion.

The Battle for Gilneas City:

With relative ease, the Gilneans took three quarters of Gilneas City back. Tragically, Liam Greymane gave his life for his father's when he took an arrow from Sylvanas. I admit, while I agree that Genn should care more about this, Liam was a grown man and a soldier - his life was at risk from the moment he entered the city and he gave his life in an admirable, honourable manner for the sake of his father and king.

I find it notable that, up to this point, Sylvanas had big success using everything but the Blight. When people say she's cunning, this is what I think they mean - she made friends of former enemies, used the circumstances of the oncoming cataclysm to her advantage whenever it presented itself, and almost held the key to controlling the worgen entirely. The Scythe alone could have turned Gilneas into an overwhelming victory and losing it and Fangfire was the turning point of this invasion.

Exodus:

It is only now that using Blight as a weapon is brought up, when the Forsaken are chased to the edge and facing down a Gilneas more united than it had been since the Second War and arguably more powerful thanks to the worgen. General Warhowl reminds her that it is explicitly forbidden but this is an unreasonable expectation.

This is because the options for Sylvanas are to use the Blight and secure victory at the risk of angering Garrosh Hellscream or not use the Blight and lose Gilneas, showing weakness in the eyes of Garrosh Hellscream. The former might result in expulsion from the Horde while the latter would definitely result in expulsion from the Horde - using the Blight was their best bet at this stage and it achieved the desired result.

Rather than stay and die in their city, Greymane orders an exodus from Gilneas. Orcish reinforcements arrive (presumably with Garrosh in command) but, after destroying their gunship, the Gilneans make an escape with the aid of the night elves. Lord Crowley and his rebels decide to stay behind in Gilneas and form the Gilneas Liberation Front.

Interlude:

Edge of Night:

I place "Edge of Night" here as it matches up best to the story. Garrosh is Warchief, the Greymane Wall is broken, and the Gilneas Liberation Front is fighting the Horde. I believe that Sylvanas simply returned to Northrend midway through the war, abandoning her own forces to the mercy of Garrosh Hellscream so that she may reflect upon her choices - and probably why the Forsaken and Hellscream's orders should even matter to her with Arthas dead.

Sylvanas sees Bolvar (though it's unknown if she recognises him as Bolvar) as the new Lich King and is livid with the decision to replace Arthas. With nothing left to live for due to her vendetta fulfilled, she impales herself on the Saronite spires of Icecrown. After attempting suicide, Annhylde the Caller contacts Sylvanas and shows her visions of the past (her life, death, undeath, and rise to power), present (the Forsaken fighting under Garorsh), and possible future (the Forsaken dying under Garrosh).

Noticeably unfazed by the plight of her "people", she refuses to help them. She is then allowed to fall into the same darkness as Arthas Menethil. Realising that undeath is preferable to what lies after, Sylvanas accepts the val'kyr and revives. With Agatha, Arthura, and Daschla at her side, she relieves Garrosh of command in Gilneas and commits herself to preserving the Forsaken as a "bulwark against the infinite" and securing what was once (apparently continental) Lordaeron as their territory.

Lord of His Pack:

The main story of "Lord of His Pack" also takes place around this time, showing what happens immediately between the flight from Gilneas and their arrival in Teldrassil. I've mentioned bits from its flashbacks earlier, but the main story mostly deals with Greymane getting over himself. I see this as something of a parallel to Sylvanas; she starts caring about the Forsaken for selfish reasons while Genn starts caring about people beyond the Gilneans and becomes less selfish overall.

The Battle for Gilneas:

The Val'kyr:

When we resume the battle (frustratingly, only available on the Horde side), we find that the GLF has not only taken the advantage during Garrosh's time in command of the battle, they've made it all the way to Forsaken High Command with spies stationed in Brill. (Assuming that this is how he fights a war, Warlords of Draenor makes a lot more sense.)

Sylvanas uses her valkyr to raise reinforcements in Deathknell shipped in from all across Lordaeron (including Blight-bombed Southshore, its exact time of destruction in relation to the invasion of Gilneas unclear). With these new undead, possibly due to where they're raised, they seem to have a few more "options" available.

In Deathknell, they don't seem to impress the new undead by force. Some, like the Rotbrain undead, did not react well to being raised and rebelled. Others, like Lilian Voss, aren't forced to stick around and aren't harmed as long as they don't attack the Forsaken. A good number kill themselves or end up mindless and must be culled, too. Those who don't fall into those categories join willingly, like Valdred Moray and the player.

While raising people is not a good thing to do (I feel that I seriously have to make this clear; it's an evil act), it's necessary from the Forsaken's point-of-view and done in probably the "nicest" manner that can be expected. Certainly more ethical than the Scourge or Ebon Blade's methods.

The ones risen in Silverpine are a different story. I believe that's because they're raising people who, a moment ago, were actively trying to kill them. This also comes into play in the Andorhal sotryline. Giving them the join or die ultimatum is pretty much the only logical thing to do as letting a free-willed undead enemy run back to their commander is a poor decision even when you haven't committed an atrocity upon their mortal soul.

The War in Silverpine:

That nonsense aside, the Forsaken are pretty clearly the underdogs for the first half of this battle (as is typical of any zone the player enters). Garrosh witnesses the abilities of the val'kyr for the first time. Since "Edge of Night" was written after the expansion, I figure his surprise seeing them here is either an oversight or he didn't expect Sylvanas to keep the "Scourge fiends" around.

Through the val'kyr, she has solved the "plight of the Forsaken"; namely, she solved the population issue I keep mentioning by gaining the ability to make new Forsaken. While Garrosh's disgust often paints him as the good guy in this situation (his reaction is certainly more relatable), Sylvanas isn't wrong when she says that without the val'kyr the Forsaken will die out. Whether they deserve to die out or not is another matter (kill all Forsaken ).

Crowley joins forces with Ivar Bloodfang. Since Ralaar's death, the ferals of Silverpine rallied under him and the Forsaken have hunted them as well as the GLF. Why? Confusion of enemies, possibly? Perhaps the Bloodfang want Silverpine as their territory and the Forsaken stand in the way?

Regardless, the GLF bolsters their forces. Worse, the orcish reinforcements Garrosh sends are useless and drunk from partying in Bilgewater Harbor. After the obligatory hyper-competent adventurer fixes them, they head to Fenris Isle, where refugees from Hillsbrad are hiding out ripe for the raising.

Fenris Keep:

After managing to get a few new conscripts, the adventurer witnessed Magistrate Henry Maleb agree to willingly take in Crowley's blood and become worgen like him, immune to the val'kyr. Agatha saves the adventurer and they escape from the Hillsbrad worgen.

Now facing the GLF, Bloodfang Pack, and Hillsbrad worgen, Sylvanas takes her super-useful little Forsaken on a horse ride for everyone's favourite conversation. Whether you believe what she says or not is irrelevant, of course, since it's what the player character believes and arguably how Sylvanas is coming to see things at this point.

It can be argued that Sylvanas is lying and deceiving the player character but there's no real reason, to me, to believe she's being dishonest in her words in the quest "Lordaeron" or her feelings about the dead soldiers in "Honor the Dead". The way I understand it, she's slowly growing to actually care a little about the Forsaken but it's not love and it's certainly nothing as warm or meaningful as the feelings Varian or Thrall have for their people. Just because she's evil doesn't mean she has to be devoid of emotion.

Losing Ground:

Either way, the Forsaken lose at Olsen's Farthing and lose a number of veteran troopers (in the world's most obvious trap) at Deep Elem Mine. She sends the adventurer to Gilneas where they continue to lose ground (partially due to the use of what I call "Bitch Blight"), eventually losing all their holdings beyond the Greymane Wall when the 7th Legion comes to Gilneas.

Sylvanas has a plan, of course, to resurrect that guy who's best known for hunting worgen on full moon nights, kidnapping kings, and committing suicide when things get rough.

After securing Godfrey (and his homies), the Forsaken commit unwarranted acts of violence upon the Dalaranians left near the crater and in Ambermill. They managed to raise the magi of Ambermill into their service (with a retcon making them totally not with neutral Dalaran... which is no longer neutral one expansion later).

Turnaround:

Before the final battle, Master Godfrey (...and the boys) burned Pyrewood (irony~), slew the leader of the 7th Legion forces in Silverpine, and captured Lorna Crowley. With the addition of Ambermill's forces and loss of the 7th Legion, the Forsaken effectively push the battle to the wall itself.

It's at this stage that bad writing truly strikes. I'm not talking about Crowley agreeing to stop the fighting for Lorna's sake (which, to her credit, Sylvanas held up) but that the deal was apparently for all of Gilneas and not just a temporary ceasefire. From where I'm standing, Sylvanas was correct that the GLF couldn't take Silverpine from her but she had no chance to take Gilneas. The Alliance should have been at a favourable impasse that allowed them to take Gilneas but the UVG tells me that is not the case. Good job, Crowley.

And then (albeit with some foreshadowing) Godfrey decides to rain on everyone's parade and shoot Sylvanas dead ([Cursed Bullets]?) at perhaps the most inopportune time to ensure that he gets absolutely no rewards for anything he did. Granted, he once thought giving Greymane to Sylvanas would stop the invasion of Gilneas, so I should expect that sort of incompetence, but he was so competent as an undead until now that I forgot that his natural state is dumbass.

Aftermath:

So Godfrey (and the Godfrettes) sod off to their castle until they inevitably get killed as dungeon bosses. Gilneas (and Ambermill, sort of) is lost to the Alliance because of shitty reasons. The worgen story stops dead in its tracks and, to a lesser extent, so does the Forsaken's.

Summation:

Sylvanas's actions actually don't come off as insane. She's a shitty person, sure, and her methods and practices are fucking evil, but she's not exactly what I'd call insane. Each step of this invasion has some kind of rationale for her to take action, it just doesn't excuse the actions themselves. I can't hate her as a character because she's competent and comprehensible but I can definitely call her a vile person.

As for Gilneas overall. I've had to consider defunct quests, Alliance quests, Horde quests, two short stories, a comic, ask Cdev, developer word of mouth just to make personal sense of it and it's not an end-all summary because of all the extrapolation I had to do just to make it sound like a coherent story.

Overall, I think Gilneas is pretty garbage and I don't even want to get into the rogue legendary questline, the Battle for Gilneas battleground, and Varian's lines at the end of SoO. This post is long enough as it is.
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Last edited by Valtheria; 12-27-2014 at 04:05 PM..
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Old 12-27-2014, 03:35 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Basically Blizzard gave the Worgen a narrative in which they'll probably never see a conclusion for, because chances are they won't make another Horde faction leader a raid boss for fear of pissing off Horde fans that care about Sylvanas.

Making a faction leader and playable race the main villains of your starting zone is an awful, terrible, and horrible direction to go because it ensures your race is never going to have a satisfying conckusion against them.
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Old 12-27-2014, 03:48 PM
Valtheria Valtheria is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
Basically Blizzard gave the Worgen a narrative in which they'll probably never see a conclusion for, because chances are they won't make another Horde faction leader a raid boss for fear of pissing off Horde fans that care about Sylvanas.

Making a faction leader and playable race the main villains of your starting zone is an awful, terrible, and horrible direction to go because it ensures your race is never going to have a satisfying conckusion against them.
Can I make this my TL;DR?
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Old 12-27-2014, 03:52 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Can I make this my TL;DR?
I thought that your TLDR was your summation.

I read your whole post and overall I agree, you have a way with explaining Sylvanas's character that doesn't sound like complete fanboyism and legitimately understand the issues she has caused for the Worgen narrative.
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Old 12-27-2014, 04:05 PM
Valtheria Valtheria is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
I thought that your TLDR was your summation.

I read your whole post and overall I agree, you have a way with explaining Sylvanas's character that doesn't sound like complete fanboyism and legitimately understand the issues she has caused for the Worgen narrative.
Well, I mostly threw the Summation (and other titles) onto that to break up the gigantic wall of text the post is.
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Old 12-27-2014, 04:44 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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It looks like people are starting to realize just how fucking malignant the Forsaken are to the narrative at this point and that is a good thing.
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Old 12-27-2014, 05:02 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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It looks like people are starting to realize just how fucking malignant the Forsaken are to the narrative at this point and that is a good thing.
I agree, though I personally think Forsaken are the most malignant towards the Worgen narrative than any other race.

I don't really wish to debate it further than that, just that I agree that there's a serious problem going on with the Forsaken and the rest of Warcraft's narrative.
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Old 12-27-2014, 05:08 PM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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It looks like people are starting to realize just how fucking malignant the Forsaken are to the narrative at this point and that is a good thing.
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starting to realize
Hasn't this been the widely accepted notion since Cataclysm? Even from the more Pro-Hordies? Heck, arguably Vanilla.
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Old 12-27-2014, 07:02 PM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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It has always been obvious to me that the Forsaken are terrible to the narrative. The question is: how the fuck can we solve that problem?
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Old 12-27-2014, 07:22 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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It has always been obvious to me that the Forsaken are terrible to the narrative. The question is: how the fuck can we solve that problem?
Either reboot the entire northern EK storyline. (Which I won't disagree will take a metric fuckload of work to do, it requires reworking the Gilnean starting zone, as well as Silverpine, Hillsbrad, and WPL. That and retconning the Genn and Sylvanas short stories.)

Or kill off Sylvanas, let the Worgen have their story conclusion and then work on developing a Forsaken character that actually services their story better. Someone who isn't simply using them as pawns for self-serving reasons.
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Old 12-27-2014, 07:46 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Kill off the Worgen. Either way Blizz doesnt care about them and Sylvanas little finger is more popular than them.

Jk. Regarding the kill off part, not the rest.
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Old 12-27-2014, 08:00 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Yes Genya, I'm pretty sure I didn't even need to click "view post" to know your stance on the issue. Regardless, it's time for Blizzard to move on from their personal bias and service a better narrative for the Worgen, because they are a playable race that absolutely should be just as entitled to a well-told story as any other race in the game whether they are popular or not.

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Old 12-27-2014, 08:18 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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You do clicked view post though

Anyway i agree. With what i dont agree is with that narrative having to be "Kill Sylvanas". Sadly for you "the Gilneans never recovered their land" is just as valid (tho i feel like they should recover gilneas lorewise)

Their story should be something more than "Lets recover gilneas" because not only its extremly limiting and is nigh imposible gamewise, but also because the second they get it they are gonna go back to the pit of irrelevance again.

I'm here for the Gilnean/dwarven/gnome industrial revolution. But then people would complain about wc not being medieval and stuff like that
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Old 12-27-2014, 08:49 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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On Sylvannas, she had an entire story arc in War Crimes confirming she wants to take over the Horde and kill Vol'jin, while thanks to Vereesa she now hates all living beings, so I'd say its only a matter of time before she's a raid boss. That simply too heavy foreshadowing for to be otherwise.
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Old 12-27-2014, 09:07 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Yes I clicked "view post" and wasn't surprised, and now I clicked "view post" again to see a more welcome surprise than I anticipated.

Yes I agree, I would like Worgen to have some spotlight that focuses on their identity among the Alliance outside of Gilneas and to be defined as more than just their kingdom. I would like their time in exile to be better explored and for them to have a unique role to play among the rest of the Alliance. Ultimately, the last thing I'd want for Worgen is to be defined by their homeland, since that indeed does leave them with a very shallow concept from the get-go.

But I fear we've already seen what Worgen are outside of fighting for their homeland, they are Night Elves. You want to know the one time Worgen actually felt anything like a unique race and not a copy of another Alliance race? When they were fighting the Forsaken and defending Gilneas. It's a shame that the one time they were anything even close to approaching a novel concept was the time that actual player Worgen couldn't explore any of that.

Much as I disdain the Forsaken for being one the biggest cockblocks in the game's lore, I will admit that I ultimately blame Blizzard for giving the Worgen nothing to chew on in their starting zone except their conflict against the Forsaken.
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Old 12-27-2014, 09:42 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Yeah, ultimately it boils down to the worgen having like, less content to the naga. That and their other unique points (victorian industrialized societyl) being kinda hard to blend in an static medieval setting (since its actual tech progression and not something magic-ey)

Frankly their problem is that all their archetypes while unique on themselves, minus one are already covered by previous alliance races.

*Good but fierce nature wardens werewolves is relatively uncommon afaik but the night eves already fill the good but fierce nature wardens
*Like i said above Victorian industrialized society means a tech advancement which WC wont allow, not to mention that dwarfs and gnomes already have the tech and industrialization scthick
*Dark, savage side of the Alliance is the only "free slot" yet but 1- It makes their identity based in the Alliance and 2- Worse, it doesnt even get used.

Ultimately i feel making them "Forsaken but with werewolf curse and in the Alliance" would have been the best for story overall but its too late for that. Frankly i dont have a fucking clue about what to do with them where they arent stepping over other alliance race toea unless they are made the Alliance superweapon or something like that.
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Old 12-27-2014, 10:55 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Just being a savage race, with an otherwise civilized and industrial culture, would in itself be a very novel thing for a playable race. It would especially follow Blizzard's thing with subverting common fantasy tropes, since it's hardly ever often that werewolves in fantasy are anything other than bipedal animals.

I understand people bring up Night Elves when it comes to a savage race mixed with civility as a counterpoint to what they can do with Worgen, but Night Elves aren't exactly savage in the same way Worgen are.
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Old 12-27-2014, 11:43 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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You have omitted (or perhaps missed) the continuation of the Worgen storyline in "War Crimes" as well as the "Fangs of the Father" legendary quest set in Cataclysm.

Perhaps reading up on those would be beneficial to you. Otherwise, I like your summary.
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Old 12-28-2014, 12:05 AM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
You have omitted (or perhaps missed) the continuation of the Worgen storyline in "War Crimes" as well as the "Fangs of the Father" legendary quest set in Cataclysm.

Perhaps reading up on those would be beneficial to you. Otherwise, I like your summary.
To be fair, it's not like there was major progression of Worgen lore in theses two cases.

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On Sylvannas, she had an entire story arc in War Crimes confirming she wants to take over the Horde and kill Vol'jin, while thanks to Vereesa she now hates all living beings, so I'd say its only a matter of time before she's a raid boss. That simply too heavy foreshadowing for to be otherwise.
Sylvanas should not be a raid boss. That would only lead to more BS "uphold honor" and shit like that. She should be killed at the end of an Alliance quest chain to reclaim Stromgarde.

Meanwhile, the Horde should get a Thousand Needle quest line to kill off Magatha and give lore to the Tauren.

A faction patch is needed at this point.
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Old 12-28-2014, 12:13 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
You have omitted (or perhaps missed) the continuation of the Worgen storyline in "War Crimes" as well as the "Fangs of the Father" legendary quest set in Cataclysm.

Perhaps reading up on those would be beneficial to you. Otherwise, I like your summary.
I don't think either of those were much of a continuation, one is a small piece of dramatism from Genn with nothing to follow up on after that and the other is basically "see? We brought Gilneas back, now quit yer bitchin'."

But yes, they definitely deserve a place in the summary as well.
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Old 12-28-2014, 08:42 AM
Valtheria Valtheria is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
You have omitted (or perhaps missed) the continuation of the Worgen storyline in "War Crimes" as well as the "Fangs of the Father" legendary quest set in Cataclysm.

Perhaps reading up on those would be beneficial to you. Otherwise, I like your summary.
I did omit them - I didn't want to go past the Silverpine questline. I could add one or two sentences as nods to what happens in those - and maybe what little came of Wolfheart as well - but I don't feel it's necessary since this is mostly about the circumstances surrounding the battle we see in questing.
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Old 12-28-2014, 11:10 AM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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Originally Posted by GenyaArikado View Post
*Dark, savage side of the Alliance is the only "free slot" yet but 1- It makes their identity based in the Alliance and 2- Worse, it doesnt even get used.

Ultimately i feel making them "Forsaken but with werewolf curse and in the Alliance" would have been the best for story overall but its too late for that. Frankly i dont have a fucking clue about what to do with them where they arent stepping over other alliance race toea unless they are made the Alliance superweapon or something like that.


And in the interest of continuing the Fables/TWAU trend...

I feel like Bigby's degree of orange and blue morality could work with the Worgen here. He's all about protecting his 'pack' rather than really caring much about the morality of things. He's definitely on the side of the good guys however that's largely because of new priorities and doesn't really care about the number of people he killed before becoming 'human'. It's all about protecting his family... and it just so happens those goals align with the good guys and that his wife is one of them. In that respect, the Worgen might not really care about the Alliance but in the interest of protecting their lands and people (pack analogies etc) they're going to do their best to serve it. It's largely selfish reasoning, but they're still loyal and determined allies.
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Last edited by Drusus; 12-28-2014 at 11:12 AM..
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critical thinking, fanon, genn who?, gilneas, kill all forsaken, lordaeron, steampunk werewolves, sylvanas

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