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  #26  
Old 11-07-2015, 12:49 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Hm, fair enough. I liked the scene, though I'd have liked it more if the cop had just finished it by saying "the hospital". I knew enough to put two and two together, and didn't need the exposition.
I think he could have left it at "the hospital" and it would have been fine. The problem I had was just how goofy it was. "Oh, we burn X on Wednesdays" I could just seem listing off all of the days with who they burn on which day. While it could seem clinical and robotic, in that interaction it just made it seem goofy.
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  #27  
Old 11-07-2015, 12:50 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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I think he could have left it at "the hospital" and it would have been fine. The problem I had was just how goofy it was. "Oh, we burn X on Wednesdays" I could just seem listing off all of the days with who they burn on which day. While it could seem clinical and robotic, in that interaction it just made it seem goofy.
Yeah, I agree it would have been better if he left it off there. I suppose too many people might not have understood, however.

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Oh look at those tags.
Most likely put in by someone who hasn't read the book (or is just trolling). It irritates me when people assume that the show is some kind of "rah rah, we're number 1" type of story, since the book on which it's based is much subtler.
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  #28  
Old 11-07-2015, 12:54 PM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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The premise is too implausible for me to get immersed. Although the book was well written.
As far as I'm aware the Nazi's had zero intention of ever invading and conquering the US as well. Even Japan never had any desire to colonize the US. I guess it can still make for an interesting story though.
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  #29  
Old 11-07-2015, 12:55 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Most likely put in by someone who hasn't read the book (or is just trolling). It irritates me when people assume that the show is some kind of "rah rah, we're number 1" type of story, since the book on which it's based is much subtler.
They probably got triggered by something so they decided to make a passive aggressive tag. They probably don't like seeing the US subverted being portrayed as a bad thing or that the allies losing the war being betrayed negatively.
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  #30  
Old 11-07-2015, 01:01 PM
EdWunclerIII EdWunclerIII is offline

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"Uhh the Nazis were the good guys in ww2. Also there would be countless innovations since every great scientist were German nazis.."
Ah, YouTube comments.
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  #31  
Old 11-07-2015, 01:07 PM
Gromak Gromak is offline

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Okay.
Sorry for not being able to answer that. You'll probably get some interesting answers and insights if you ask that question someone who actually lived through all these changes though.

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I'm honestly not totally sure, but I suspect it's because he was already middle-aged at the time, and a landowner. I wouldn't be surprised if they made him participate in home guard exercises of some kind, but he was never sent out of the country.
Thanks for the answer. I assume that these cases were a very rare occurance. I don't think even a single one of my friends has a grandfather that wasn't drafted into the Wehrmacht. But they don't really like to talk about that period of time very much, understandably. My grandfather fought in Stalingrad and he never, under any circumstances, talked about that. I only know somethings about how it was and what my grandparents did during that time and also only because of my grandmother.
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  #32  
Old 11-07-2015, 01:17 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Sorry for not being able to answer that. You'll probably get some interesting answers and insights if you ask that question someone who actually lived through all these changes though.
I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that.
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  #33  
Old 11-07-2015, 08:35 PM
Ujimasa Hojo Ujimasa Hojo is offline

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As far as I'm aware the Nazi's had zero intention of ever invading and conquering the US as well. Even Japan never had any desire to colonize the US. I guess it can still make for an interesting story though.
I think the Nazis did want to gain the US. Maybe not invade, but merely support influential Nazi individuals/groups like Henry Ford and the KKK into power.

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Ah, YouTube comments.
Without the Nuremberg trials in an alternate universe, the lack of ethical considerations on human experimentation would accelerate scientific discoveries
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  #34  
Old 11-07-2015, 08:46 PM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Neither the Nazis nor Imperial Japan had any hope of invading the continental United States short of an alliance with an interstellar empire.
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  #35  
Old 11-08-2015, 01:59 AM
Feltongue Feltongue is offline

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Uhh I don't know how else to word this but how do you think being essentially conquered by the allies influenced German society? Do you like American military bases?
Aside from splitting the country in two?
You'll probably find more in that regard on Eastern Germany as Americanization and Westernization are hard to separate (noteworthy might be that media, press and intellectuals were quite taken with American liberalism and freedom of speech, corporate politics also changed more towards US American models) and American consumerism (Nazi Germany and the US had extensive relationships up to the war, after all) and entertainment (which the Nazi regime thoroughly enjoyed, especially for its upbeat slogans, they just rejected the "nigger culture"), already had influence on Nazi Germany before the war.


It's safe to say that the war in general and the recovery from the Nazi regime are the most noticeable influences on post WW2 German culture (look at the German Americans in the US, whose culture has almost vanished, also thanks to the war).


Regarding bases, you can still find "Amerikanersiedlungen" in some German cities (mine has one, for example), which are instantly recognizable for its American features like the broad streets (not to mention the street names, such as Lincoln Stra?e) and buildings (with crawl spaces). Most of the military facilities have been re-purposed by now (a friend of mine has her flat in a former American military hospital, it looks just like in the movies!).
We even have an American style cinema called Cincinnati Filmtheater


The coke picture is a photoshop by the way you can find a lot of Coca Cola ads during the Berlin Olympics though if you google for them

Last edited by Feltongue; 11-08-2015 at 02:09 AM..
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  #36  
Old 11-08-2015, 08:50 AM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Thanks for all the information.
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  #37  
Old 11-08-2015, 06:38 PM
Feltongue Feltongue is offline

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My pleasure.
I can go into more details but I'm no major, just interested in my history and culture, so we can take it to PMs or whatever because it's not going to be anything ground breaking.
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  #38  
Old 11-21-2015, 03:24 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I just watched the first episode of this show. I had to use a proxy to make Amazon think I was in the US for it to work but I was able to see it. It seems like it has a lot of potential but it seems really bleak right now.
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  #39  
Old 11-22-2015, 08:17 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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As I've said in the other thread I love alternate history and while WWII is a cliche setting for AH I am still more than happy to have some AH television to watch, hopefully we get even more if it is popular enough.

I am up to Ep.4 right now, and honestly, it should be even more bleak. I mean the possible problem is that the power and influence of the Axis powers is immense and the resistance should be even less successful than they are. I'd prefer an exploration of a global society gone wrong over a band of unlikely heroes going against astronomical odds.
Basically I am saying they need to walk a fine line to maintain plausibility between very powerful Fascist states and successful resistance.

Aaaand barely, loosely related to this TV show:


It's awesome. (Yes, even the mech-cats... especially the mech-cats).
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  #40  
Old 11-22-2015, 09:20 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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As I've said in the other thread I love alternate history and while WWII is a cliche setting for AH I am still more than happy to have some AH television to watch, hopefully we get even more if it is popular enough.

I am up to Ep.4 right now, and honestly, it should be even more bleak. I mean the possible problem is that the power and influence of the Axis powers is immense and the resistance should be even less successful than they are. I'd prefer an exploration of a global society gone wrong over a band of unlikely heroes going against astronomical odds.
Basically I am saying they need to walk a fine line to maintain plausibility between very powerful Fascist states and successful resistance.

Aaaand barely, loosely related to this TV show:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnE7gckfr58

It's awesome. (Yes, even the mech-cats... especially the mech-cats).
The novel was written in 1962, before the alternate world Nazi victory became a cliche (I think Fatherland was the first novel with this premise, but The Man in the High Castle came soon after). I have sort of mixed feelings about the alternate world genre, but I quite like this example.

The book offered a bit more of what you're looking for, I think. There really wasn't any organized resistance left in the book's universe, and even those who'd fought in the war mostly wanted to get on with their lives.

I think the relatively comfortable lives seen in the PSA are to show how most people would move on so long as they weren't in a targeted group (though there was also a point about at least some of the conquering powers undergoing a sort of mission drift). Banality of evil, and all that. The book took place entirely in the PSA and the Neutral Zone; the Nazi-controlled parts are never shown.
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  #41  
Old 11-23-2015, 02:32 AM
Fojar Fojar is offline

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Canada is the one country nobody bothered to conquer
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  #42  
Old 11-23-2015, 01:08 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Canada is beyond alternate realities. It is a constant in a sea of variables.
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  #43  
Old 11-23-2015, 01:16 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Wait, was that Agent Carter towards the end?
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  #44  
Old 11-25-2015, 12:34 AM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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I just finished Season 1 (hopefully the first of several). For the most part, I love this show.

It's rare to see any work of fiction dedicate itself so thoroughly to world-building. While a good setting is often a character unto itself, most don't take center stage in the way seen in The Man in the High Castle. This works because it mostly focuses on "normal" characters. I personally think that it's much harder for a setting to feel real when the viewpoint characters are all badasses (which is by no means a bad thing; merely a limitation).

The characters are all at the mercy of those more powerful than themselves. You see this a bit in Game of Thrones, but there the characters are usually nobles who at least have some chance of driving power. The people in The Man in the High Castle are not so fortunate. As such, there's sometimes no real good option: no matter what you do, awful things will happen. Fiction is often afraid to address this truth.

The show does tend toward being talky, and some have complained that it's slow-paced. I personally find it quite tense, though there is a relative paucity of action. Whole scenes are devoted to world-building, like Childan's conversation with the Kasuras, or the scenes in Obengrueppenfuehrer Smith's home (which are creepy, tense, and funny all at once).

I'm surprised that Wegener didn't kill Hitler at the end. I thought Hitler's death would lead into renewed Japanese-German tensions for the next season. Maybe they're putting that off until later.

My only major complaint is the relationship between Joe and Julianna. I just don't buy it. Some of it is because I really don't understand what drives Joe, and his actions often seem to be decided on the flip of a coin. Julianna's character (which is otherwise well-written) gets fouled up by proximity. Hopefully they'll give us more insight into Joe (and I was rolling my eyes in a big way with what happened in episode 10--really, Julianna? Really?)

While I loved the final scene of episode 10, I do suspect it'd be confusing to people who haven't read the book. I don't think the series did a good job of explaining what was going through Tagomi's head, and how the necklace tied into it.
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  #45  
Old 11-27-2015, 09:38 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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I pretty much agree with everything Destron wrote, spot on analysis. I too most loved the world building and how the characters interacted with the world itself far more than any particular story (least of all the story of the plucky rebels, Joe, etc). I especially liked Smith and his family, inspector Kido, Tagomi, Frank and most of all Wegner. He was truly repentant (but he knew that wasn't enough, given what he'd done), tried to have peace, was prepared to do the right thing and his last words to his son... I admit I teared up, I just love a good redemption story.

I loved the show and I can't wait to see Season 2 (which I am sure will come, it was Amazon's most liked show). One thing I think would be nice is more episodes per year, since the episodes are released all at once and obviously don't depend on any sort of TV schedule they can release as much as they can manage to film. Bring on two or even three seasons per year I say!

Some more thoughts:

I wonder why Hitler let Wegner get close to him if he knew that his assassination was planned. It's odd, either he had some insurance (a sniper maybe?), figured it out on the spot or he didn't much care if he lived or died (which his demeanor doesn't show).
Also I have a theory that the man in the high castle might be Hitler. He would be (and clearly is) really interested in these films and releasing some prisoners or letting some grunts get ambushed would be a paltry price for collecting these films, studying them and keeping them out of circulation.

D, tell me what spoilers you know about Tagomi's teleportation/sight into our timeline? Based on his shock this seems to be the first time this has happened, but he did have those zone out moments before so I'm not sure.
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  #46  
Old 11-27-2015, 01:02 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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I pretty much agree with everything Destron wrote, spot on analysis. I too most loved the world building and how the characters interacted with the world itself far more than any particular story (least of all the story of the plucky rebels, Joe, etc). I especially liked Smith and his family, inspector Kido, Tagomi, Frank and most of all Wegner. He was truly repentant (but he knew that wasn't enough, given what he'd done), tried to have peace, was prepared to do the right thing and his last words to his son... I admit I teared up, I just love a good redemption story.

I loved the show and I can't wait to see Season 2 (which I am sure will come, it was Amazon's most liked show). One thing I think would be nice is more episodes per year, since the episodes are released all at once and obviously don't depend on any sort of TV schedule they can release as much as they can manage to film. Bring on two or even three seasons per year I say!

Some more thoughts:

I wonder why Hitler let Wegner get close to him if he knew that his assassination was planned. It's odd, either he had some insurance (a sniper maybe?), figured it out on the spot or he didn't much care if he lived or died (which his demeanor doesn't show).
Also I have a theory that the man in the high castle might be Hitler. He would be (and clearly is) really interested in these films and releasing some prisoners or letting some grunts get ambushed would be a paltry price for collecting these films, studying them and keeping them out of circulation.

D, tell me what spoilers you know about Tagomi's teleportation/sight into our timeline? Based on his shock this seems to be the first time this has happened, but he did have those zone out moments before so I'm not sure.
I'm also wondering why Hitler allowed Wegener to get so close. I'm leaning toward the idea that he no longer particularly cares (perhaps by seeing the films, he realizes there are many Hitlers on many worlds: some successful, some dead, some just middling Austrian bourgeoisie).

Mild book spoilers ahead: Hitler's out of the picture in the novel. I don't remember if he's dead or not, but if he's alive he's basically a vegetable (the Nazis keep this a secret, but it's apparently widely known or suspected that Hitler had syphilis, which can also make people crazy).

Instead, Martin Borman becomes chancellor. He dies midway through the novel for reasons that are never made clear (the official story is natural causes).

His death kicks off a power struggle between:
Goring (selfish, but rational)
Goering (also selfish, but more fanatical)
Heydrich (never actually appears in the book, seen as extremely dangerous)
Von Schirach (the moderate--Rommel, who is dead in the book, seems to be his show equivalent)
Seyss-Inquart (the true believer)

The book had Nazis exploring Mars and Venus (this was before we knew Venus was completely uninhabitable), but such efforts cost money without bringing anything back. Thus, the Third Reich is in bad economic shape, which means they're more likely to behave aggressively in order to maintain unity. Given that Japan is the only potential rival (though far less technologically advanced) a war is likely.

The show seems to take the stance that the titular man in the high castle is Hitler. This was not so in the book, in which case the title referred to Hawthorne Abendsen, the man who wrote "The Grasshopper Lies Heavy", the alternate history book that's gotten the Axis nervous (though they're much less nervous about it in the novel).

Tagomi's episode is the first (and, as I recall, only) example of someone in the novel actually traveling into a parallel reality. This actually ties in with the necklace.

The Japanese are in love with Americana. However, as the conversation between Childan and the Kasuras show, they don't necessarily understand America (as seen in Mr. Kasura's complete ignorance of the racial tensions, which would have been exacerbated by the Germans). They enjoy a sanitized ersatz version (in much the same way a RL American Otaku enjoys Japanese culture--they only enjoy a very specific, limited part, namely anime and manga).

The necklace, however, is genuine. It's not the old '30s or 19th century stuff, it's a modern example of American culture that has endured in spite of the occupation. Incidentally, Frank's necklace also resembles folk jewelry that was popular during the actual '60s. Mr. Tagomi implicitly recognizes the authenticity of the necklace, and this triggers his encounter with an alternate (real?) reality.
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  #47  
Old 11-27-2015, 04:28 PM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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That many black bars means it must be worth watching.

Can't be worse than Jessica Jones.
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  #48  
Old 11-27-2015, 06:00 PM
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I just finished the first episode and I has hugely disappointed. The characters are all so boring and uninteresting, the actors don't convince me and the accents are horrendous (I had to rewind a lot of scenes a couple of times because I simply didn't understand what the hell they were trying to say). What I also found really weird and immersion-breaking was how often there was someone to remind us that America, in fact, lost the war. Guys, I already got that from the opening scene where there were swastikas all over New York, you don't need to tell me that every 5 minutes. It all felt so goofy and sloppy.
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  #49  
Old 11-27-2015, 06:06 PM
Gurzog Gurzog is offline

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I want a wolfenstein continuation Blaskowitz is such a badass and that sex scene with that girl herredj?vlar ass?

need to wait til 2017

Last edited by Gurzog; 11-27-2015 at 06:08 PM..
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  #50  
Old 12-02-2015, 10:05 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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You might say it's a cliche setting, but I actually discovered the book while looking for a story that depicted a Cold War between victorious Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. I found that premise extremely underrepresented in fiction.
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