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  #726  
Old 06-05-2019, 03:54 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Sure. I don't think we're arguing.

And that's the part that's a shame. Any religious, inter-faith discourse with them is only going to go so far because they exist solely for political reasons. When you dig deep, their answers on the nature of morality are going to be identical to a secular humanist's. Which is fine; I can talk morality and religion with a secular humanist. They are real. There is a philosophical level of secular humanism that exists on its own WITHOUT being pure reaction to political climate. It exists as something more than internet trolling translated into real life.
If the religious people would behave themselves, we wouldn't need groups like the Satanic Temple.
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  #727  
Old 06-07-2019, 05:53 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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Dude, we realize it's not a "real" religion. Church of Satan exists to point out the hypocrisies of the protected status of religion. Like, it's one thing to pray in peace and safety. It's quite another to build multi-million dollar, corporations (essentially) that are completely tax-free. Large, international organizations that have the resources and manpower to lobby the government to push their ideology onto the general population.
The Church of Satan is not the Satanic Temple. These are two separate organizations. Carry on.
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  #728  
Old 06-10-2019, 01:39 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/faq

So I did underestimate the Satanic Temple. Its website actually does flesh out a philosophical mindset with moral guidelines (and in my opinion, "philosophy" is the big "P" word that gets you the secular version of theology and religion, e.g. Confucianism).

The neat thing about belief systems is that, if designed as more than a joke, you can flesh out and explore them without being an actual believer. When you're not a believer, it's interesting how much these systems can feel like the lore or "canon" of a fictional universe. Art imitates life imitates art, and all that.

Like most modern philosophies/religions, the morality of this Satanism brand is focused on humanism and empathy. Emphasis on the empathy. The Golden Rule, right? The conclusion of game theory. There's an almost universal agreement that an individual's rights are not allowed to supercede another individual's rights, generally. You see this in most modern religions plus in atheistic secularism - it's sort of pleasant to reflect on how so many of us stand by this conclusion despite coming from so many premises.

But the true entertainment in studying religion (and history) comes from the philosophical EMPHASIS that each group leans toward.

With my Catholic Christianity, for example, there's a high emphasis on sacrifice and on the belief that we fall short of perfection. Most of our sacraments are bound to this recognition of failure and the need for a greater force to reshape us. Our application of empathy and humanism are entwined with personal sacrifice and the desire to come as close to perfection as possible.

Reading this website for the Satanic Temple, I'm getting an emphasis on PURGING and REBELLION.

Not the wicked kind of rebellion, but the kind of rebellion tied to purging. The kind related to taking something filthy, cleaning it completely, obliterating the filth you discovered, and restoring whatever left that is actually clean and good. If I were looking for equivalent tones within Christian scripture, I'd look to Jesus flipping tables in the temple or to the metaphor of a house being tested by fire so that the wood and straw burn away but the more durable elements remain (1 Corinthians 3:12-15). And incidentally, that latter example is often used by Catholics to convey the Purgatory concept to Protestants.

But of course, "purging" isn't the word these Satanists use. They use the term "destruction", a term I consider loaded and unfair. Because when you look into it, this "destruction" is a constructive version of destroying. It destroys so that the target can be improved. That's what I consider purging. Look at this list of Satanic Temple rituals:

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Black Mass — a celebration of blasphemy, which can be an expression of personal liberty and freedom

Unbaptism — participants renounce superstitions that may have been imposed upon them without their consent as a child

Destruction ritual — participants destroy an object they own that symbolizes a source or pain in their lives

Defiance ritual — a pledge to challenge the status quo in a way that is personally meaningful
Look at all that. The first, second, and fourth are all striking out at perceived evils in the world and society. The third one (Destruction ritual) feels almost like a Lenten vow or sort of spring cleaning, removing objects that burden us or bring us further away from that personal purity we could otherwise attain. It's interesting. I wonder if the site might ever list less destruction-focused rituals, maybe like "Tree of Knowledge" for some sort of educational experience.

But yes, it all looks more offensive than it actually is because everything is ensconced in the language of REBELLION. As Wikipedia describes:

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Originally Posted by Wiki wiki
In an interview with The New York Times, co-founder Malcolm Jarry stated that the idea of starting a Satanic faith-based organization was first conceived as one "that met all the Bush administration's criteria for receiving funds, but was repugnant to them"
And that's their two-edged sword, with the disadvantage of being reactionary in form and tone (anti-Christian), but the advantage in getting attention and ability to specifically target what they consider filthy and pervasive in modern times. That advantage is their stated reason for founding. An intriguing take, though I prefer the tone of those who call themselves secular humanists.

It is very entertaining to read their stabs against the other forms of "Satanism". The true spirit of reformation and counter-reformation: attacking your fellow denominations more effectively than outside religions truly can!

EDIT: Whoops, I forgot to comment on the most obvious link between the tone of rebellion and the repeated mission goal of "empathy". By using anti-Christian verbiage to shape its religion into something repugnant to Christians, they are of course working to increase empathy among the Christian population itself. "See how we feel!" and all that. Which serves a purpose. I prefer more of a balance between internal growth and external growth, but at least they do have the internal aspect present (e.g. the Destruction ritual mentioned above).

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 06-10-2019 at 02:04 PM..
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  #729  
Old 06-10-2019, 05:22 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Look at all that. The first, second, and fourth are all striking out at perceived evils in the world and society. The third one (Destruction ritual) feels almost like a Lenten vow or sort of spring cleaning, removing objects that burden us or bring us further away from that personal purity we could otherwise attain. It's interesting. I wonder if the site might ever list less destruction-focused rituals, maybe like "Tree of Knowledge" for some sort of educational experience.
Here's an example of one of their "black mass" things:
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  #730  
Old 08-31-2019, 12:32 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Hijab is inherently sexist and anyone who considers themselves remotely feminist should be opposed to women wearing it. As a disclaimer because idiots try to put words into my mouth with this, that doesn't mean removing the right to wear it.
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  #731  
Old 09-01-2019, 07:08 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Hijab is inherently sexist and anyone who considers themselves remotely feminist should be opposed to women wearing it. As a disclaimer because idiots try to put words into my mouth with this, that doesn't mean removing the right to wear it.
I disagree that it's inherently sexist. Just make it so people don't get fucking stoned for not wearing it, let it be a symbol of religious piety for people that it's still important to and let people who don't give a shit or only wanna wear it on special occasions wear it when they feel like it. /shrug
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  #732  
Old 09-02-2019, 08:03 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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I disagree that it's inherently sexist. Just make it so people don't get fucking stoned for not wearing it, let it be a symbol of religious piety for people that it's still important to and let people who don't give a shit or only wanna wear it on special occasions wear it when they feel like it. /shrug
Yeah, nah, it's pretty blatantly sexist in every way. There's a weird case of Stockholm syndrome going on with Muslim women defending the whole thing with hijabs and burqas and all that purity/covering-oneself-up-culture. And it being a cultural fashion statement or some shit is even weirder. Imagine if black Americans wore slave rags and a ball and chain.
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  #733  
Old 09-02-2019, 12:14 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Aneurysm View Post
Yeah, nah, it's pretty blatantly sexist in every way. There's a weird case of Stockholm syndrome going on with Muslim women defending the whole thing with hijabs and burqas and all that purity/covering-oneself-up-culture. And it being a cultural fashion statement or some shit is even weirder. Imagine if black Americans wore slave rags and a ball and chain.
I feel that's false equivalency.

Moreover though, why does anyone care, once people aren't getting stoned to death for not wearing them, who gives a shit what people wear or don't wear?
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  #734  
Old 09-12-2019, 01:09 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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ABC is refusing to air an ad from the FFRF during a debate on Thursday. This is the ad:

https://ffrf.org/news/news-releases/...y-debate?rss=1
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  #735  
Old 09-12-2019, 08:25 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I respect the desire to not be forced into prayers and public display of iconography.

. . .

Yet on a different note... I went to the Freedom from Religion website and clicked on their "About" page. I feel I have to respond to it a little.

https://ffrf.org/about
Quote:
The history of Western civilization shows us that most social and moral progress has been brought about by persons free from religion. In modern times the first to speak out for prison reform, for humane treatment of the mentally ill, for abolition of capital punishment, for women's right to vote, for death with dignity for the terminally ill, and for the right to choose contraception, sterilization and abortion have been freethinkers, just as they were the first to call for an end to slavery.
So... everything I bolded is pretty dubious. I'm pretty sure you're going to find names of supporters with both religious and secular mindsets.

With women's right to vote, for example, you'll find in American history that it was closely tied to the temperance movement. It's not a coincidence that the 18th Amendment (Prohibition) and 19th Amendment (Women's suffrage) were ratified so close to each other. It seems disingenuous to claim suffrage for the "freethinkers" while tossing temperance to the religious, when so many of the same people fought for both.

And ending slavery? You can just take a cursory glance at the wiki on abolitionism.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolitionism
Quote:
In Western Europe and the Americas, abolitionism was a historic movement that sought to end the Atlantic slave trade and set slaves free. King Charles I of Spain, usually known as Emperor Charles V, was following the example of Louis X of France, who had abolished slavery within the Kingdom of France in 1315. He passed a law which would have abolished colonial slavery in 1542, although this law was not passed in the largest colonial states, and it was not enforced as a result. In the late 17th century, the Roman Catholic Church officially condemned the slave trade in response to a plea by Lourenço da Silva de Mendouça, and it was also vehemently condemned by Pope Gregory XVI in 1839. The abolitionist movement only started in the late 18th century, however, when English and American Quakers began to question the morality of slavery. James Oglethorpe was among the first to articulate the Enlightenment case against slavery, banning it in the Province of Georgia on humanitarian grounds, and arguing against it in Parliament, and eventually encouraging his friends Granville Sharp and Hannah More to vigorously pursue the cause. Soon after his death in 1785, Sharp and More united with William Wilberforce and others in forming the Clapham Sect.
We all have the potential for similar moralities, even if their pretenses are different. As a religious type, perhaps I believe that even the nonreligious can be motivated by the morality and truth that derive from God.

If you are a nonreligious type, perhaps you believe that our man-made religions are at least partially influenced by our man-made morality, and it shouldn't be a surprise that our man-made morality can occasionally look similar to your own man-made morality, considering we are both the same sort of creature.

It's nice when our causes intersect.
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  #736  
Old 09-13-2019, 11:51 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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They did, however, allow an ad that was apparently just a photo of Alexandria Accasio-Cortez being burned.
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  #737  
Old 09-13-2019, 12:01 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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They did, however, allow an ad that was apparently just a photo of Alexandria Accasio-Cortez being burned.
I actually just read an article about that!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn...-ad/index.html

It wasn't JUST the photo being burned. It was narrated over by some Elizabeth Heng lady talking about horrors of "socialism" in Cambodia. The article has an interesting conclusion:

Quote:
As he gears up for his reelection campaign, Trump has sought to closely tie Democrats on Capitol Hill and those running for the presidency to socialism and lawmakers such as Ocasio-Cortez.
The Republicans want people to associate the Democrats with loud freshmen like Ocasio-Cortez, instead of more "normal-looking" ones like Warren or Biden. Not sure if that's the best move, considering what happened with Trump in his campaign.

The article didn't mention it (Or didn't realize it? My respect for journalism constantly diminishes.), but it's also making people associate democratic socialism with one-party communism.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 09-13-2019 at 12:07 PM..
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  #738  
Old 09-13-2019, 04:43 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Sure seems like Disney has an agenda they're trying to push there.
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  #739  
Old 09-13-2019, 09:00 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I actually just read an article about that!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn...-ad/index.html

It wasn't JUST the photo being burned. It was narrated over by some Elizabeth Heng lady talking about horrors of "socialism" in Cambodia. The article has an interesting conclusion:



The Republicans want people to associate the Democrats with loud freshmen like Ocasio-Cortez, instead of more "normal-looking" ones like Warren or Biden. Not sure if that's the best move, considering what happened with Trump in his campaign.

The article didn't mention it (Or didn't realize it? My respect for journalism constantly diminishes.), but it's also making people associate democratic socialism with one-party communism.
Which is horseshit because Nixon and Kissinger caused the rise of the dictatorship in Cambodia (the genocide they associated 'evil communist dems with') with their stupid bombing shit.

How the hell did anyone with a shred of integrity think that saying 'yeah well the democrats will turn into evil dictators and KILL YOU' is the right thing to do rather than debating on the issues?
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  #740  
Old 09-14-2019, 04:03 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Which is horseshit because Nixon and Kissinger caused the rise of the dictatorship in Cambodia (the genocide they associated 'evil communist dems with') with their stupid bombing shit.

How the hell did anyone with a shred of integrity think that saying 'yeah well the democrats will turn into evil dictators and KILL YOU' is the right thing to do rather than debating on the issues?
Because we live in a post-truth society. Bear in mind that these are the people that will cry "socialism" at every social program but if you point to countries with those policies in place and call them examples of successful socialism, they'll get all high and mighty and say it's not real socialism.
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