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  #51  
Old 04-15-2013, 08:40 PM
Shaman Shaman is offline

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Pretty certain that guy helping Theon is Ramsay.
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  #52  
Old 04-15-2013, 09:11 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
Here's the deal and this is why I'm on the fence on this. We are never told ALL of the details of Theon's time with Ramsey after the fall of Winterfell.

In the books, we see Theon being carted off by Ramsey and then in the next book he appears as Reek. We get bits and pieces of his time, but never the full story. As we can see in the show, it has changed a lot and it ended up being Theon's own men who turned him over to Rob's forces. So we can easily say that this is filling in all the blanks of Theon's time in captivity.

Now as for being called a "bastard" well the only problem is that a lot of characters on this show have been called a bastard. Does that mean that every single character who gets called it is one? Tyrion isn't a bastard for example. Bastard doesn't always mean "a bastard born of a non-Lord and Lord".

Could I be wrong? Of course. Could this all be a red herring and this character is actually Reek and is delivering him to Ramsey as part of a sick twisted game? Sure, that could happen. Or this could be someone else that Ramsey paid off, or someone who got paid by Asha and then forced by Ramsey to deliver him elsewhere? So many possibilities on this.
We're pretty much saying the same thing here.

On the "bastard" comment, you're right that not everyone who's called a bastard actually is one. But given that Roose Bolton constantly referred to "his bastard" as the guy who was headed to Winterfell, it makes sense that this would be a literal use of the term instead of just a colloquial one.

... though at the moment I'm hard-pressed to think of a time when a non-bastard character gets called a bastard within the context of the show. It's not really relevant to this discussion, but it's just something I realize I'm not sure about.
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  #53  
Old 04-15-2013, 09:13 PM
Saranus Saranus is offline

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Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
Here's the deal and this is why I'm on the fence on this. We are never told ALL of the details of Theon's time with Ramsey after the fall of Winterfell.

In the books, we see Theon being carted off by Ramsey and then in the next book he appears as Reek. We get bits and pieces of his time, but never the full story. As we can see in the show, it has changed a lot and it ended up being Theon's own men who turned him over to Rob's forces. So we can easily say that this is filling in all the blanks of Theon's time in captivity.

Now as for being called a "bastard" well the only problem is that a lot of characters on this show have been called a bastard. Does that mean that every single character who gets called it is one? Tyrion isn't a bastard for example. Bastard doesn't always mean "a bastard born of a non-Lord and Lord".

Could I be wrong? Of course. Could this all be a red herring and this character is actually Reek and is delivering him to Ramsey as part of a sick twisted game? Sure, that could happen. Or this could be someone else that Ramsey paid off, or someone who got paid by Asha and then forced by Ramsey to deliver him elsewhere? So many possibilities on this.
If it's Reek, then shouldn't someone have mentioned or reacted to his namesake's stench?? It's like his main defining quality. Looks like it's Ramsay.
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  #54  
Old 04-16-2013, 04:40 AM
Ded Chikn Ded Chikn is offline

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Originally Posted by spidey1980 View Post
Wasn't this thread supposed to be tv-show-only? There shouldn't be any black bars in here.
It was to keep the black bars out of the walls of text in the other thread more. when there are paragraphs of spoiler bars it's a bit ugly.

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Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
What is your source on that? Not saying your wrong, I'm curious.
It was announced the day he got hired. Since then they went back to a hush hush moment.

You are right that it's not 100%. I shouldn't say anything is confirmed though. The way the changes to the show are, he could be a different character altogether. I find it unlikely though.
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  #55  
Old 04-16-2013, 07:38 AM
Jungleluke Jungleluke is offline

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This episode was damn good.


The chair-stuff.
Blackfish and Edmure with the arrows.
Podrick's little adventure (made me curious and I lolled when Bron and Tyrion put him on a chair and gave him some wine).
And, ofcourse, Jaime's hand.



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  #56  
Old 04-16-2013, 08:36 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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It was announced the day he got hired. Since then they went back to a hush hush moment.

You are right that it's not 100%. I shouldn't say anything is confirmed though. The way the changes to the show are, he could be a different character altogether. I find it unlikely though.
Ahhh very interesting, very interesting.... indeed.


I'll admit that I am loving the Blackfish. Liked him in the books and just loving him in the show. Would like to see him more involved and poor Edmure. Boy can't do anything right...
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  #57  
Old 04-16-2013, 10:23 AM
Ded Chikn Ded Chikn is offline

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Edmure got a bad rap.

In the books Blackfish offers some condolences and reassurance. He tells him that Hoster, Edmure's father and the Blackfish's brother, missed their own father several times upon his funeral.

Also the whole issue with the mill and driving Gregor away? No one told Edmure the plan, they just said "Stay put" Was he supposed to just let Gregor run around killing his people?
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  #58  
Old 04-16-2013, 10:26 AM
Jungleluke Jungleluke is offline

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Originally Posted by Ded Chikn View Post
Edmure got a bad rap.

In the books Blackfish offers some condolences and reassurance. He tells him that Hoster, Edmure's father and the Blackfish's brother, missed their own father several times upon his funeral.

Also the whole issue with the mill and driving Gregor away? No one told Edmure the plan, they just said "Stay put" Was he supposed to just let Gregor run around killing his people?
Very true, at least Edmure will try to make amends for 'his mistakes'.
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  #59  
Old 04-16-2013, 10:29 AM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Robb told him to stay put. That's all Edmure had to do. His orders were to stay put. Pretty simple assignment. But Edmure wanted glory and thought that he was helping Robb by going afer Gregor. and he went after it and ended up making things even worse.

Should Robb have told Edmure the reason why he wanted to stay put? That is never talked about in the books, either.
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  #60  
Old 04-16-2013, 10:35 AM
Ded Chikn Ded Chikn is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saranus View Post
If it's Reek, then shouldn't someone have mentioned or reacted to his namesake's stench?? It's like his main defining quality. Looks like it's Ramsay.
Also, someone just pointed out to me, the Boltons haven't been outed as dubious people yet. Yes we are told that the bastard is in charge of the torture to a prisoner of war, but we haven't given face to the true source of treachery.
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  #61  
Old 04-16-2013, 10:39 AM
Mark_Romaneck Mark_Romaneck is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ded Chikn View Post
Edmure got a bad rap.
Very much deserved really

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Originally Posted by Ded Chikn View Post
Also the whole issue with the mill and driving Gregor away? No one told Edmure the plan, they just said "Stay put" Was he supposed to just let Gregor run around killing his people?
But that was the plan, it should not be hard to stick to it, Edmure felt shadowed by the his uncle and his nephew and he wanted to go all epic on them which really spiraled into their following red wedding since Tywin had the capital secured now

The tullys are all idiots, Catelyn is an emotional wreck, Lysa is an emotional wreck and Edmure is too an emotional wreck the exception is the black fish and it makes sense since he is you know, the outcast.

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  #62  
Old 04-16-2013, 10:42 AM
Jon Targaryen Jon Targaryen is offline

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I see that the show made Blackfish into an even bigger dick than he was in the books. Always preferred Edmure to him and I thought he got a raw deal.
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  #63  
Old 04-16-2013, 10:45 AM
Ded Chikn Ded Chikn is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_Romaneck View Post
But that was the plan
And no one told him that part.

Do you think Robb would have stayed in Winterfell if Gregor/Tywin was tearing up his lands?

Part of "Defending Riverrun", his orders, is defending it's people.

Really Robb's shitty, incomplete orders are to blame here.

And Lysa isn't an emotional wreck, she's batshit insane.
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  #64  
Old 04-16-2013, 10:54 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Originally Posted by Ded Chikn View Post
And Lysa isn't an emotional wreck, she's batshit insane.
This can't be overstated.
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  #65  
Old 04-16-2013, 11:15 AM
Jungleluke Jungleluke is offline

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I love the Tully's, except for Lysa, she's insane in the membrane^over9000!.
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  #66  
Old 04-16-2013, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Jungleluke View Post
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What really pissed me off, was how Theon started crying: "No, not me!"
So it's ok if someone else gets raped instead of you? Jerk!
Made me wish they'd really have a go at his ass.

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Originally Posted by Ded Chikn View Post
And no one told him that part.

Do you think Robb would have stayed in Winterfell if Gregor/Tywin was tearing up his lands?

Part of "Defending Riverrun", his orders, is defending it's people.

Really Robb's shitty, incomplete orders are to blame here.
What was he supposed to do? Send a raven carrying his entire plan to Riverrun? Ravens can be easily itercepted. He had to keep this close to the chest.
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  #67  
Old 04-16-2013, 11:36 AM
Ded Chikn Ded Chikn is offline

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I'm sure that was his exact train of thought in that situation.
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Old 04-16-2013, 01:29 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Was "defend Riverrun" the order that Robb gave Edmure in the show though?

I'll have to watch the show again, but from what I remember the order was "stay put".

Instead Edmure chased Gregore away from a mill, lost 280 people or something to do so and instead of smashing Gregore's army and collecting his head, Robb now has a mill.

.... a mill.... I did have a chuckle at that.

But the thing that I draw back to is when did Robb give the order? Was it face to face or by raven? Like Spidey said, if you send out a raven telling anyone who capture or kills it that Edmure is being order to stay put because it's all part of a trap for Gregore and Gregore gets his hands on it? You'd have a similar situation to what happened when General Lee's detailed orders were found by the Union army and they knew exactly what the battle plan was and send Lee running.

But if Robb gave the order to Edmure face to face and only told him to "stay put" and tell him nothing about the trap that he was setting, then Robb has no one to blame but himself for that.

Quote:
What really pissed me off, was how Theon started crying: "No, not me!"
So it's ok if someone else gets raped instead of you? Jerk!
Made me wish they'd really have a go at his ass.
That's just Theon, he is a coward and braggart that talks big and gets his ass kicked. He isn't a very likeable character anyways lol
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Old 04-16-2013, 05:08 PM
spidey1980 spidey1980 is offline

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Originally Posted by Ma Caque Attaque View Post
Was "defend Riverrun" the order that Robb gave Edmure in the show though?
"Your instructions where to wait for him to come to you." That's pretty clear imho.
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Old 04-17-2013, 04:17 AM
Ded Chikn Ded Chikn is offline

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Originally Posted by spidey1980 View Post
"Your instructions where to wait for him to come to you." That's pretty clear imho.
He did "come to him" when he started attacking his lands.

Through out the story Edmure is shown to have a huge love for his people. He even opens the gates of his castle to allow refugees inside, something that startles and frightens Catelyn.

I'm not saying he is innocent and with out fault, I'm just saying he was doing what he thought was right. I wouldn't sit back and watch as my people were butchered by some of the enemy.

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Old 04-17-2013, 05:22 AM
spidey1980 spidey1980 is offline

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Originally Posted by Ded Chikn View Post
He did "come to him" when he started attacking his lands.
Then why didn't Edmure go with that reasoning to defend his actions?
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  #72  
Old 04-17-2013, 05:48 AM
Ded Chikn Ded Chikn is offline

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Because the shows depiction of him makes him look like (more of) an ass.

I feel like they are going to set up most of the blame for an upcoming event on him rather than on the person(s) who is truly responsible.

The show is making Robb seem more kingly than the books did. I admit it, he was awesome in the seen where he was scolding Edmure. They are really building him up, more so in the books. This is probably because we see his perspective rather than Catelyn's.
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Old 04-17-2013, 07:21 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ded Chikn View Post
The show is making Robb seem more kingly than the books did. I admit it, he was awesome in the seen where he was scolding Edmure. They are really building him up, more so in the books. This is probably because we see his perspective rather than Catelyn's.
It's also because Richard Madden really impressed the showrunners with his performance in the first season. Benioff and Weiss are giving him more to do while also giving his narrative more invented scenes because they know that Robb is a really heroic character, and a lot of the audience is latching onto that since Ned didn't survive the first season.

That being said, Catelyn's perspective chapters don't translate well to TV action because a lot of it is her reflection on past events. Her scene with the Blackfish in this episode is probably the closest adaptation of what one of her perspective chapters would be like since, well, the beginning of the show, I think. (Okay, if Martin had actually written her "this is all my fault because I couldn't love Jonny Snow" speech from S3E2, then that would have been a good example too, but that was invented.)
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  #74  
Old 04-17-2013, 10:07 AM
Saranus Saranus is offline

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Yeah, it seems like a lot of Catelyn's chapters are her hanging out in a room somewhere thinking about the past, and then a few people come in to talk to her. Not the most compelling television.
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Old 04-21-2013, 11:32 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Since the books are called A Song of Ice and Fire, do you think there is any chance they will end with a titanic struggle by some fire god/monster rising in Valyria ("The Doom still rules in Valyria) and an ice god/monster who is the master of the white walkers?
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