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  #1  
Old 11-05-2017, 02:46 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Crossed Swords (War2) B4A - Story Grievances

A gift from me to you, use it wisely.
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  #2  
Old 11-05-2017, 03:19 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Probably the best place for this... good idea. Thank you, Nazja.

Some of you might remember me as being that angry Night Elf poster from a few years back. The rumors are true, I quit the game before Legion because I did not trust the writers to handle the expansion competently. I'm here essentially because this thing reached through the goddamned internet and ruined my Friday.

Expect me around for the next two weeks.

Human fans, I want to make it clear that I don't hate you. I think you deserve great content, and I would be happy that you're getting it if not if not for the fact that you are officially the reverse Jesuses of the franchise right now. Everyone is suffering for your benefit. But I know that it isn't your fault and I want you to know that before I descend into this critique.

So let's start with the Horde.

I will say it a thousand times that I loved the Orc campaign from Reign of Chaos. I loved seeing this struggle between Thrall's vision of what the Horde should be and Grom's desire for conquest. I remember when Grom defied Cenarius's claim that they were demon spawned wretches, declaring that the Orcs were free of their corruption. Contrary to later lore, Cenarius laughs and calls him on it. To paraphrase: "Despite what you may believe, you are as bloodthirsty and violent as the demons ever were".

Thrall had earlier stated that Grom's bloodlust is a liability that he couldn't afford, and there's a clear theme here. It wasn't just the demon blood that made Grom the way he was, and Mannoroth drives that point even deeper before Grom get's his second wind. "You know that in your heart, we are the same".

What an excellent way to redefine who the Orcs were! The demon blood was a metaphor for a destiny of senseless bloodlust.


Well, if you have read Horde complaints about their presentation in Cataclysm and Mists of Pandaria, you know what I'm getting at. Subsequent writers have all but reversed this, for the Orcs especially, but to a lesser extent, anyone that goes along with it. You can make the argument that the Trolls and the Tauren stood up against Garrosh, fine, but then what are they doing supporting Sylvannas then?

Hell, why would Sylvannas even do that? The Forsaken may have been ruthless and pragmatic, certainly amoral, but attacking the Night Elves unprovoked? Committing probably the greatest act of mass murder since the scourge of Lordaeron? How is that related in any way to protecting her people from the threat of a human invasion? Why are the forsaken being portrayed as baby mulching murderers, and why is the rest of the Horde supporting this instead of distancing themselves?

We also know where this is going to end. We have a roadmap. The Horde will lose even more of their characters, they'll have to change warchiefs again in all likelihood, and the individual players will have to bridge the gap between the complex but interesting racial histories that they signed up for, and being a moustache twirling villain that the story now calls for.

I'll have more of course. Don't you worry.
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Old 11-05-2017, 03:23 PM
Patrick_C Patrick_C is offline

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Default Just transfering this from the other thread

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Blizzard doesn't have a Horde bias problem. They have a "Doesn't Know How to Write the Horde" problem.

They want us to have the New Horde and the Old Horde at the same time. The reasoned, restrained, spiritual Horde that just wants to coexist and the badass war machine that doesn't care about spirits and rapes the land anywhere it sets up shop. But they can't have that, because eating babies and saving babies doesn't somehow cancel each other out and make you not a baby-eater.

First with Garrosh, and now by putting the "playable villain" faction in charge, they've made the Horde into villains, thematically and in action, but keep telling Horde players they're the good guys while they help despot after despot do horrible things. And now we get to do it all over again, at a time when it makes the least sense, because they think they're enormously clever when they make the faction conflict cyclical, i.e. just the same story again with a new paint job.

It's saddening whenever I see Horde players celebrate these villainous Warchiefs who don't give a damn about their character or player race, as if being despised by the Warchief is grounds for blind devotion to him/her. People who heralded or still herald Garrosh as this great leader even though he wanted them and their entire chosen player race dead, or who "get chills" hearing Sylvanas shout "for the Horde" even though we know it's all bullshit because she renews her assertions of not really caring about the Horde at all every time we hear or read what she's really thinking. Blizzard is shoveling the entire faction this same stale garbage over and over, and they just keep wolfing it down without complaint and eager for more.

And they complain about Thrall and Vol'jin, because Blizzard makes any Warchief who's not fighting the Alliance a useless, do-nothing Warchief. Any Warchief that isn't trying to destroy the Alliance gets plunked down on his throne to do nothing until it's time to die or step down. They just can't seem to figure out how to make the factions do anything meaningful that isn't fighting the other faction, and that loses all meaning because of how clumsily it's inevitably handled. All they're good for is the same redundant war over and over again and maintaining PvP over meaningless objectives.

I'm convinced that if they got their shit together, picked a Horde and wrote it instead of continuing to write two fundamentally incompatible Hordes at the same time, the Alliance side of things would fall into place with it. The Alliance and Horde exist to play off each other. It's all they're good for at this point. Which means as long as one faction is narratively schizophrenic the other will by necessity be incongruous and broken in its response. Fix the Horde and you fix the Alliance. But they can't (or more accurately, deliberately won't) because their heads are stuck in the WC1-2 nostalgia of the Horde being non-sympathetic protagonist bad guys, so they keep dragging it down to drink from that same filthy trough again, and dragging any faction interaction down with it.

Until they fix it, they shouldn't be even touching another faction war. But they are. They're hitting that same road again with the same broken parts still in place, the same inevitable problems they always cause, and the same players (clearly not all of them, but evidently enough to keep Blizzard convinced this is the way to go) who insist that nothing is wrong with it as long as they get shiny new stuff to look at.
I'm in love with this post. It says everything I wanted to say, but in a better way.

On a related note, LOL at John Hight saying "the Alliance finally says, 'Okay, we've had it'". The Alliance has said "okay, we've had it" at least twice before and it never went anywhere. It won't go anywhere this time either.

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Originally Posted by Icefrost View Post
And to top it off, the Chromie tagline of the WoW Classic servers announcement just happens to start off with "they say you can never go back home..."

Tell me I'm not the only one to connect that dot.

It's like they're trying really hard to tell us to "go play this other thing already, you whiny b*tches."
I'll admit it, when they announced that they were "remaking" EK and Kalimdor, coupled with the "one continent for each faction" thing, I thought the Classic servers could be a way for them to dodge at least a fraction of the complaints against the loss of beloved zones. Not the main reason, of course. Classic servers have been a demand since forever. But a... Strategic benefit, so to speak.

However, since it has been revealed that the zone changes won't hit until you are max level and, as such, the staring areas and leveling storylines are going to be preserved, I'm less convinced of that.
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  #4  
Old 11-05-2017, 03:49 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Getting into the Night Elves. Many of you already know the contours of my argument. The Night Elves have fallen a long, long way from their respectable, force-of-nature presentation that we got in Warcraft 3. The purple human problem is real, it's been around for a very long time, and I have fought it every step of the way. Night Elves were supposed to be a completely alien society with completely new ways of doing things. But that all seemed inconvenient to the writers, especially the writers who wanted Warcraft II back.

Those writers I think saw Night Elves as discount high elves, and put them in that position. In Cataclysm they were convenient victims. Blizzard introduced various contrivances to handwave away their advantages, their allies, and the druids. Suddenly, Cenarius, who, like I said, called Grom on his argument that he was free of demons - he KNEW that Grom was not being directly manipulated - was perfectly fine with the Orcs desecrating Ashenvale because he "misunderstood the Orcs" the first time around.

That's been the problem. Night Elves were the round peg that the writers were damned sure to force through that square hole, and people like me were howling every step of the way. Tyrande had to be an idiot so that Varian could lead the Alliance. The natural allies had to go away so as not to create a conflict with Horde druids. Night Elves had to be presented in human armor and as essentially nothing more than archers to present a unified Alliance. We also had to have a unified Alliance so as not to make it too complicated for the writers to write.

In summary, Warcraft III's Night Elves have always been inconvenient for the writers. It got in the way of a Warcraft II Alliance. It complicated the power fantasy horde that at the same time had druids, and it was something that frankly, they didn't seem to really care for. So prior lore was discarded, ignored, or handwaved away to just make things work.

Teldrassil was the logical conclusion to that with respect to the writer's desire for a human led, uncomplicated, Warcraft II Alliance. It signals the end of the very concept of a multipolar Alliance. It is the final word on whether not just Night Elves, but non-humans in general will get their own content.

There is a scene from Dr. Zhivago that I was reminded of when I learned about this. Gromeko learns and laments. "They shot the Czar, and all his family. Oh, that's a savage deed." Dr. Zhivago replies with something to the effect of "It's to show that there's no going back now".

I said this in the other thread, but Night Elf fans writ large did not care about Lordaeron. The Night Elves in general had no reason to care about it. It was a human thing, and the Night Elves had their thing. If the writers felt comfortable with a complex world, this wouldn't have been a problem, but they wouldn't handle that and now we're here.

This isn't so much the Battle for Azeroth so much as it is the War for Human Homogenization, and Human Homogenization has won. This is exactly the sort of thing that I was afraid of when they started putting Night Elves in human tabards. Now it's here.

Last edited by Kyalin V. Raintree; 11-05-2017 at 03:53 PM..
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  #5  
Old 11-05-2017, 04:11 PM
Asterisk Asterisk is offline

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Originally Posted by Shandalay View Post
Just to nitpick a little, he does not actually say she burnt it down. He says, you see her standing there.
It could still be that this is exactly what the Alliance also sees... and takes it as.. 'Sylvanas did that'. It would be an understandable conclusion - just the same we are coming to now.
It might not neccessarily be true, however.
That's possible I suppose, but I have no possible idea why Sylvanas would be in Darkshore if she didn't do it.
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Old 11-05-2017, 04:17 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I've heard some people say they want the Horde to be less like bloodthirsty monsters and more like Conan. The problem?

Quote:
Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of the women!
Conan is absolutely a bloodthirsty monster. People don't always seem to understand that.
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Old 11-05-2017, 04:21 PM
Shandalay Shandalay is offline

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That's possible I suppose, but I have no possible idea why Sylvanas would be in Darkshore if she didn't do it.
Thanks for the info about answering here

And that is right ofc, but if someone actually staged that and it is kind of a 'false flag' operation, she may have been lured there.
Someone may have remembered the trolls in Darkshore and tried to reach out to them or looked for survivors. Even if there was only a small number of them left, they'd make good spies in that valley close to the Nightelves.
They (Sylvanas and the other ones who are with her on that first pic, where Teldrassil is not yet on fire), may even have been hunting remaining or newly arrived Twilight Hammer guys in the area.

I mean, I would not put it past Sylvanas to actually burn down that tree herself if she really gets a suitable weapon for it, but it seems kind of a wierd target.

Anyway, I really wanted to only point out, that the interview didn't actually outright say it was her.
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Old 11-05-2017, 04:29 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Shandalay View Post
Thanks for the info about answering here

And that is right ofc, but if someone actually staged that and it is kind of a 'false flag' operation, she may have been lured there.
Someone may have remembered the trolls in Darkshore and tried to reach out to them or looked for survivors. Even if there was only a small number of them left, they'd make good spies in that valley close to the Nightelves.
They (Sylvanas and the other ones who are with her on that first pic, where Teldrassil is not yet on fire), may even have been hunting remaining or newly arrived Twilight Hammer guys in the area.

I mean, I would not put it past Sylvanas to actually burn down that tree herself if she really gets a suitable weapon for it, but it seems kind of a wierd target.

Anyway, I really wanted to only point out, that the interview didn't actually outright say it was her.
I don't really understand why she would do it in the first place. What would she get out of it other than rage and international condemnation?

Or did she somehow predict that the rest of the post-Garrosh horde was going to be okay with it? I mean, congratulations to her on somehow predicting that, but is that a reasonable prediction?

It wasn't very long ago that the Orcs were concerned that if Sylvannas gained too much power, they could be next.
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Old 11-05-2017, 04:31 PM
Gromak Gromak is offline

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Originally Posted by Asterisk View Post
That's possible I suppose, but I have no possible idea why Sylvanas would be in Darkshore if she didn't do it.
We discussed this "Horde shot first" thing on the Discord as well. Notable was that the Blizzard guy in the interview referred to an unspecific "event" that would deepen the rift between Alliance and Horde and would essentially set all this off.


Quote:
It was kind of an uncomfortable alliance between the Alliance and Horde to defeat a common foe, the Legion. But now that the Legion is defeated--spoilers but I think everyone knows that at some point we're going to end the expansion--things happen that left scars between the two sides. And then things happen in the opening of Battle for Azeroth that cement it. Some of the imagery that you'll see is the scene is with Sylvanas standing in front Teldrassil on fire. Then with the opening cinematic, that event was right before the Alliance finally says, "Okay, we've had it" before they assault Lordaeron.
Now, the way this is worded, the "event" that preceeded could reasonably be interpreted as both the burning of Teldrassil or the unspecific event that caused the rift. Furthermore, Before the Storm describes Sylvanas as fearing Saurfang because she knows he will act if she missteps to badly - yet he seems to have no problem fighting with Sylvanas at Lordaeron.

I feel we might miss a huge piece of the puzzle here.
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Old 11-05-2017, 04:31 PM
taelon taelon is offline

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I really liked Arm's post as well.
The alliance story was ussually about history and azeroth background which the alliance races are tied to + self reflections and minor stories.
A lot of the horde one was just direct fight enemies and fight alliance and hurt them with splash of shamanism/hunter as a seperate thing.

The issue is now because Horde story was about hurting the alliance. The story for the Alliance automaticly becomes about retaliation and doing something against the horde.
This is not class balance where you forget the past and nerfs or buffs don't matter as long as balance is achieved.
Because of this the alliance identity will keep bleeding as long this is not resolved and thus you see alliance players talking about hurting the horde. It's not because they hate the horde players and it's easy for to horde go for a defensive position of what why you whining?

But the horde is also hurting. While they don't take many big losses in the faction war with consequences it does on a few things like leaders. And because the horde has so little sidecharacter development being build up they don't have replacements. The horde needs that story development alliance has been having.

I do want to add that the horde does have a better balanced faction development than alliance. Partly due to hordes main development is split between Blood Elves and Orcs while for the alliance it's just humans.

--------------------------------------------------------
Night Elves loss
What makes teldrassil also so bad is that the land is much more critical to Night Elf lore and identity than any other race.

I think Quel'thelas comes second and 3th being, Stormwind+3zones and Ironforge Capitol.

What sucks most is if the alliance just declared themselves as neutral the horde would never attack them it's so jaded.

Last edited by taelon; 11-05-2017 at 04:53 PM..
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Old 11-05-2017, 04:34 PM
Asterisk Asterisk is offline

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Something that happens in the book then.
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  #12  
Old 11-05-2017, 04:55 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Something that happens in the book then.
Yes, and I'm sure it will be a contrived and nonsensical fig leaf. Bonus points when the Night Elf victim blaming commences.
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Old 11-05-2017, 05:24 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Old 11-05-2017, 05:33 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Horde Flag

I'm fine with the writing direction for Battle For Azeroth.

I would take an MMORPG version of Warcraft II over fighting green demons and purple tentacles any day.

I understand lots of players don't agree with the decision (and hell, there's a fair comparison when plenty of americans opposed the war in Vietnam, as well as the bombing of Hiroshima), but the power scaling had to stop (what's next after defeating a Titan?) and the company also needs revenue to keep producing the content.

A factionless world with mundane and political threats would be interesting, yes, not to mention a continuation to the class halls. But it wouldn't be financially good for the franchise as a classic recreation of Warcraft II, and they're promising consequences of war and a dynamic world, everything we ever dreamed of seeing in a game when reading the descriptions of the classic battles in Chronicle.

It doesn't make sense.

We weren't there (in Azeroth) to see how the Alliance and the Horde dealt with each other while also facing the Legion in their home turf.

We were secluded in the Broken Isles, and then in Argus.

It can make sense if Blizzard sheds some light on the perspective of the daily life of the armies of the Alliance and the Horde during Legion.

But that's only required for us, who don't see much sense in this writing direction, and frankly it's not worth the cost of producing more written content. They would rather produce more written content for the BfA post-Legion era and I agree with them.

The reasoning doesn't matter if you look at how they could have portrayed it and when you have a product prototype burning hot in your hands.

Bring me Warcraft II. It's time for proper war.
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Old 11-05-2017, 05:38 PM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I've heard some people say they want the Horde to be less like bloodthirsty monsters and more like Conan. The problem?

Conan is absolutely a bloodthirsty monster. People don't always seem to understand that.
No one said they wanted the Horde to be like Conan. Someone else used that as shorthand for the idea, and I didn't see the point in nitpicking. I already gave my description of what I wanted the Horde to be like. Let me pull it up.
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Originally Posted by Krakhed View Post
The majority favor something inbetween. The honorable warrior. A faction that doesn't take shit from anyone, but doesn't start shit needlessly. One led by a Warchief capable of controlling and disciplining his followers if they do something pants-on-head retarded, and is capable of pragmatic decision-making. He doesn't start a war just because he thinks war is glorious and murder is noble. He starts a war when peace has failed. And then he carries that war to its end.

That is what people want from the Horde. Not shounen underdog shit. Not bloodthirsty murderous barbarians. They want a faction that's both pragmatic and brutal, as well as wise. One that fights when it's time to fight, and keeps their dick in their pants when it's not.
http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/...97#post1609297
I don't care so much about the primitive aesthetic or loincloths. I just want the feel to be right. Blood Elves can fit in the Horde just fine so long as they bring the right attitude. The Forsaken too. They have plenty of practical methods. So long as they don't go overboard, and their work benefits their allies, they've got a perfectly fine place in the Horde.

Last edited by Krakhed; 11-05-2017 at 05:55 PM..
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Old 11-05-2017, 05:41 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
Bring me Warcraft II. It's time for proper war.
I can respect this. I don't believe that the idea of a proper war is the problem. That's fine with me. My problem is the lengths we are going to in order to make it happen in a certain way. Namely: with a WC2 Alliance that has no room for intrafaction variation.

Last edited by Kyalin V. Raintree; 11-05-2017 at 05:44 PM..
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Old 11-05-2017, 06:10 PM
Shandalay Shandalay is offline

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Can anyone tell me where people get the idea that there would be 4 years between Argus and BfA? I've read this several times now and it seems extremely unlikely to me, but maybe it was stated somewhere?
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Old 11-05-2017, 06:19 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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I don't know whether it'll be better or worse if the developments in the patches ignore the war, and then the last patch some peace magically comes around and we get a return to the status quo of nelves in northern Kalimdor and forsaken in northern Eastern Kingdoms.
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The Alliance's three rules on faction conflict:
1) You can't win.
2) You can't break even.
3) You can't leave the game.

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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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Old 11-05-2017, 06:25 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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I don't know whether it'll be better or worse if the developments in the patches ignore the war, and then the last patch some peace magically comes around and we get a return to the status quo of nelves in northern Kalimdor and forsaken in northern Eastern Kingdoms.
A return to the status quo does not explain or fix the existence of truly miraculous and sudden Kal'dorei and Forsaken losses, that appeared to 'just happen' for reasons of rule of cool.
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Old 11-05-2017, 06:32 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
A return to the status quo does not explain or fix the existence of truly miraculous and sudden Kal'dorei and Forsaken losses, that appeared to 'just happen' for reasons of rule of cool.
Good to see you again, by the way.

And yes indeed, but I figure I'd mention it as a possibility, given how Blizzard has treated the one other status quo change (Dalaran: Alliance for half an expansion, effectively neutral 10 minutes into the next expansion) that I can name.

Also to answer some questions up above, from what I've heard:

Sylvanas gets an artifact (Sargeran?) or something and uses it to burn Teldrassil. Alliance proceeds to whoop Horde butt in the Lordaeron continent.

This pre-burning image, and this do show a high elf (one of the other Windrunners?) who witnesses the events, so perhaps they might be relevant to determining the circumstances in the future.
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The Alliance's three rules on faction conflict:
1) You can't win.
2) You can't break even.
3) You can't leave the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #21  
Old 11-05-2017, 06:39 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
Good to see you again, by the way.

And yes indeed, but I figure I'd mention it as a possibility, given how Blizzard has treated the one other status quo change (Dalaran: Alliance for half an expansion, effectively neutral 10 minutes into the next expansion) that I can name.

Also to answer some questions up above, from what I've heard:

Sylvanas gets an artifact (Sargeran?) or something and uses it to burn Teldrassil. Alliance proceeds to whoop Horde butt in the Lordaeron continent.

This pre-burning image, and this do show a high elf (one of the other Windrunners?) who witnesses the events, so perhaps they might be relevant to determining the circumstances in the future.
Yeah, I'm aware that Sylvannas uses a magical McGuffin, but that doesn't explain how the Horde also kicks the Night Elves so easily off of their home turf in terrain that they should have natural advantages in. Ditto with the Alliance doing so in Lordaeron. Lordaeron by rights should be a high casualty slog with Forsaken plague weapons available - but the Alliance... just turn up.... somehow... probably with the help of space bats or *snickers* void elves.

Like I said, I don't mind a war storyline, I do mind a contrived, silly war storyline where things happen arbitrarily... and especially where they see it as another way to homogenize the Alliance even further.

But it's good to see you too.
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Old 11-05-2017, 09:10 PM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Yeah, I'm aware that Sylvannas uses a magical McGuffin, but that doesn't explain how the Horde also kicks the Night Elves so easily off of their home turf in terrain that they should have natural advantages in.
They've kept a lot of details about what happened at Teldrassil a secret so far, so it'll probably all make sense later. They're probably keeping a very important detail hidden.

Its surface blazes bright, masking shadows below.

You probably all got screwed over for a distraction, to hide the machinations of the shadows below.

Last edited by Krakhed; 11-05-2017 at 09:15 PM..
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Old 11-05-2017, 09:22 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Krakhed View Post
They've kept a lot of details about what happened at Teldrassil a secret so far, so it'll probably all make sense later. They're probably keeping a very important detail hidden.

Its surface blazes bright, masking shadows below.

You probably all got screwed over for a distraction, to hide the machinations of the shadows below.
Right "an Old God did it".... it's the best story justification we have so far. Why not?

Code for "the writers didn't care".
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Old 11-05-2017, 09:47 PM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Right "an Old God did it".... it's the best story justification we have so far. Why not?

Code for "the writers didn't care".
It depends on how they handle it. Maybe they want to make N'zoth actually subtle. In the end, it won't really matter if they write it well this time. It's still Night Elves getting screwed to make the continents red and blue.
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Old 11-05-2017, 09:57 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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It depends on how they handle it. Maybe they want to make N'zoth actually subtle. In the end, it won't really matter if they write it well this time. It's still Night Elves getting screwed to make the continents red and blue.
Well, it didn't in the first place. It's a story contrivance because the writers wanted a Warcraft 2 Alliance with no room for variations in theme, and were going to get it come hell or high water. You're right, it doesn't matter if they write it well. They don't really care.

Besides, Old Gods jumped the shark a long time ago.
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