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Old 07-15-2015, 06:40 PM
Apep Apep is offline

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Panda Pandaren and the 10,000 Year Interim

I enjoyed Mists of Pandaria. It had some faults, such as resigning Mantid to the fate of being yet another hive-structured, evil, and ultimately ineffectual race of bugs, but from beginning to end, I found the story of Pandaria largely satisfying.

However, one thing that I found rather disappointing is that Pandaria remained entirely unchanged for the 10,000 years it was divided from the rest of Azeroth. I may be no historian, but 10,000 years is an awfully long time. Night elves are guilty of this as well, but being functionally immortal, they do have a somewhat reasonable excuse. Pandaren have no such justification; their lifespan is roughly equivalent to the modern human.

For 10,000 years pandaren essentially sat on their fuzzy butts contemplating the color blue, or draining tea leaves, or something vaguely philosophical. I understand filling that void would have been quite the pain, but it would have been nice if they had done something with their time.

I would have preferred it if the pandaren had entered an Azerothian equivalent of the Warring States Period immediately after the sacrifice of Shaohao; their emperor was gone and, as far as most pandaren knew, so was the rest of the world. Not one panda thought the absence of power would be a good opportunity to rally loyal families and attempt to assert themselves as a new emperor? Even if no one considered taking the throne for their own, why would they not have at least tried to maintain the empire in absence of an emperor?

Now I understand the Shado-Pan might have worked to prevent such discord, but that would have still been maintaining the empire as it were in some form. The Sha are also a problem, but it should be possible for pandaren to experience negative emotions in some substantial capacity without triggering the Sha; stoic politicians, through the emlpoyment of emotionless assassins, pushing their agendas throughout the fading empire would still be possible.

I find it boring that Blizzard more or less said "the pandas had harmony for a really damn long time, and that's it."

What would you have the pandaren do during that period of time, or what occurrence would you consider interesting?
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Old 07-15-2015, 06:42 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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The ten thousand years of peace is a lie invented by the current regime to legitimize their rule.

I haven't played MoP.
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Old 07-15-2015, 06:50 PM
Apep Apep is offline

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The ten thousand years of peace is a lie invented by the current regime to legitimize their rule.

I haven't played MoP.
I would actually like that as an explanation if there was a regime. At the very least it would imply the pandaren were something besides completely perfect, harmonious beings.

And since you have not played MoP, I will say, from my own experience, it was nice. The ending was pathetic, but I attribute that to it taking the story out of Pandaria and trying to squeeze it back into the old world.
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Old 07-15-2015, 06:58 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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They lived in relative peace. The most tech savvy races weren't there. They were also afraid of the Sha. There's no pseudo-conspiracy theories as to why not much has changed.
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Old 07-15-2015, 07:04 PM
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They lived in relative peace. The most tech savvy races weren't there. They were also afraid of the Sha. There's no pseudo-conspiracy theories as to why not much has changed.
Which is boring.
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Old 07-15-2015, 07:10 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Which is boring.
That is subjective. You people have weird concepts of fun.
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Old 07-15-2015, 07:16 PM
Apep Apep is offline

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That is subjective. You people have weird concepts of fun.
But I never mentioned fun.
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Old 07-15-2015, 07:21 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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That is subjective. You people have weird concepts of fun.
Ten thousand years is a fucking long time for nothing to happen. At least the Night Elves have the excuse of sleeping through most of the centuries.
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Old 07-15-2015, 07:28 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Ten thousand years is a fucking long time for nothing to happen. At least the Night Elves have the excuse of sleeping through most of the centuries.
Only the Druids slept though. What do you think the Draenei do?
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Old 07-15-2015, 07:30 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Only the Druids slept though. What do you think the Draenei do?
Periodically draw the Legion down on unsuspecting worlds?
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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Old 07-15-2015, 07:44 PM
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Only the Druids slept though. What do you think the Draenei do?
Build sprawling cities and massive mausoleums before tearing it all down and doing it again; good way to keep busy, I suppose.



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Old 07-15-2015, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Noitora View Post
They lived in relative peace. The most tech savvy races weren't there. They were also afraid of the Sha. There's no pseudo-conspiracy theories as to why not much has changed.
I'd have loved it the Pandaren had some kind of emotional psychic police to enforce serenity and happiness on everyone so that sha didn't manifest and eat the world.


Kinda like that "We Happy Few" game now that I think about it.
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Old 07-15-2015, 08:01 PM
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On a related note, where were the Mogu hiding for an even longer period of time than that?

They came in boats and portals from... somewhere...
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It'd be nice if they actually finally gave us things they cut or under utilized 10 years ago.
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Ten.

Years.
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Old 07-15-2015, 08:02 PM
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10,000 years = 1,000 Mantid invasions.

Pandaren were probably too busy preparing for the next invasion. I mean, every 100 years, they spent a lot of resources and suffer a lot of casualties.
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Old 07-15-2015, 08:09 PM
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I'd have loved it the Pandaren had some kind of emotional psychic police to enforce serenity and happiness on everyone so that sha didn't manifest and eat the world.


Kinda like that "We Happy Few" game now that I think about it.
Who do you think the Stormstouts are?
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Old 07-15-2015, 08:58 PM
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Apep guy is thinking a little too hard. What really happened was about TEN THOUSAND YEARS AGO there were two pandaren FRACTIONS with different ideologies who went to war with each other over a seemingly all powerful wish granting device that could allow them to create their ideal society. Of course no one would EVER expect that the well would eventually get poisoned and one day their collective idiocy spawned SHADOWS of their NEGATIVE EMOTIONS which went cray cray and blew up and killed a fuck ton of them and the shadows decided to kill them all so after they somehow managed to beat the shadows they hid the device away and rethought their lives and philosophy cause they almost lost everything. Except the mantid, they're unsalvageable, they have their corner.

Then TEN THOUSAND YEARS LATER idiots suddenly appeared and started fighting and history repeats itself. Except this time the shadows decided that it is going to act on a wish for peace and comes to the conclusion that it is best attained by KILLING ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE since that is the only solution that had ever been presented to it. Except this team the only ones left to fight them are a makeshift pandaren army, allinace/horde dissidents, and a kid who has been conditioned to be a soldier and his nine friends who he almost died for on nine occasions.

It's a cycle of absolute suffering.
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Old 07-15-2015, 09:10 PM
Crazyterran Crazyterran is offline

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My little Panda, My little Panda, tea leaves are magiiiiic.
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So many deluded people think their rotting Waifuchief cares for them and their faction, when every scrap of internalized narrative has made it clear for years that to Sylvanas, the entirety of the Horde - including her own people - is nothing more than a shitton of bodies to stack between herself and her final death.

And all it takes is a tactically calculated "for the Horde" rallying the troops to make them all think "OMG she really does care!"
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Old 07-15-2015, 09:24 PM
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The stagnant inactivity of the continental Pandaren was basically a major plot point surrounding the Sha of Pride. It's extremely pertinent to their story duringMoP that very little happened and changed during the interim. In successfully cordoning off Pandaria from the rest of Azeroth, Shaohao imprinted upon them the idea that not only was Pandaria "better" than the rest of the world and more worth saving, but that Pandaria as it existed when he called up the Mists was "better."

That meant preserving the idyllic Pandaria that Shaohao had spared the depredations of the Legion and the Shattering. The Pandaria where the mogu were long beaten, and the Shado-pan were sufficient to man the Serpent's Spine, so there was no perceived need for any standing imperial army (Remember, Shaohao even started out first seeking to rally an army in preparation for the demonic invasion...then he let himself get talked out of it by the Celestials. Yeah...an army of trained Pandaren warriors might have come in handy when the night elves were frantically trying to drive back Legion's advance.)

If they'd had on-and-off internecine conflicts and power struggles the whole time between the WotA and MoP, further shaping their society while making them change and grow like any other part of the world would, it would negate the whole point that isolating Pandaria behind the Mists was a really bad idea.

The absence of the mogu was both an instigator and a symptom of the same thing. The routine, clockwork nature of the Mantid swarms kept the Pandaren vigilant of the one threat they'd always faced, but the lack of any significant mogu activity had them turning a blind eye to the places of power where their former oppressors once congregated. The primary mogu shrines and palaces in the Vale had long been their own emperors' seat of power, so the Golden Lotus kept them monitored, but they didn't bother with the underground labyrinths and ancient fortresses that had fallen to ruin. Consequently, the mogu were still around; the Pandaren just didn't know it because they didn't care to inhabit those places, so their ancient enemy was able to gather and plot unobserved in the dark recesses of their former holdings without fear of being detected. The resulting absence of a detected mogu threat allowed the Pandaren to forget they were still out there, furthering their already mounting complacency toward unforeseen dangers.

The Pandaren weren't "perfectly harmonious" because of all this. That's the point; they only thought they were. Existing in harmony means accepting that things still change, and knowing how to change with them. What the Pandaren did was just refuse to let anything change, and that's not real harmony. That's just encouraging stagnation for the sake of clinging to what's familiar.

Remember, Pride is the most insidious of Sha, and in myriad ways, all the inhabitants of Pandaria were in its thrall. Not only is Pride "good until it's bad"; it also begets the other Sha. In their Pride the Pandaren Feared to change, and were wracked with Doubt when change finally came for them. And when that change came some succumbed to Anger, Hatred and Violence out of the desire to prevent it, while others were beset by Despair as the change took away what they thought they would always have.

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Old 07-15-2015, 09:24 PM
Apep Apep is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Revenant View Post
On a related note, where were the Mogu hiding for an even longer period of time than that?

They came in boats and portals from... somewhere...
I was under the impression most, if not all, of the mogu were stone constructs in a state of dormancy, and the arrival of the Alliance and Horde kicked off a mass awakening, not unlike the vrykul.


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Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
10,000 years = 1,000 Mantid invasions.

Pandaren were probably too busy preparing for the next invasion. I mean, every 100 years, they spent a lot of resources and suffer a lot of casualties.
I thought it was an invasion once every thousand years, not sure why.

Even with a mantid invasion every 100 years, that still leaves plenty of time between for events to occur. The swarms are devastating, but do not seem that dire, since the pandaren never bothered to alter their approach to them.


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snip
It just seems so long for ten millennia to pass by, with numerous generations throughout, and no real instance of significant change. I suppose the issue is that writers were working within the confines of established lore.

Your explanation makes sense, but is the story as we know it the best solution?
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Old 07-15-2015, 09:28 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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I get how a period of stagnation could be an important plot feature, but ten thousand years is longer than all of known Actual human history. There's no way nothing happened in that time.
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Old 07-15-2015, 09:30 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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I get how a period of stagnation could be an important plot feature, but ten thousand years is longer than all of known Actual human history. There's no way nothing happened in that time.
Ten thousands years after the Shattering the world still uses swords and only just invented guns in the past few decades.

Obviously fantasy standards of civilization's development rate apply on Azeroth, and even moreso in Pandaria.
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Old 07-15-2015, 09:33 PM
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Ten thousands years after the Shattering the world still uses swords and only just invented guns in the past few decades.
I figure that's just because trolls/elves are stupid, useless savages who needed the Titanic races to wake up and show them how it's done.
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And the HRE was a meme that went too far.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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Old 07-15-2015, 09:35 PM
Arashi Arashi is offline

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Dont forget they're people who almost ended the world with magic. Then ten thousand years later the world almost ended again with magic.
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Old 07-15-2015, 09:37 PM
Apep Apep is offline

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I figure that's just because trolls/elves are stupid, useless savages who needed the Titanic races to wake up and show them how it's done.
Technically, the titanic races were active at that time, if WotA is to be believed, so them waking up is not much of an issue.

Also, trolls were busy tearing themselves apart and seriously aggravating Neptulon, so it is understandable their level of technology is so low; the continual ruin of troll civilizations would do that.
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Old 07-15-2015, 10:07 PM
Crazyterran Crazyterran is offline

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Everytime ARM posts a post like that, a troll loses his keyboard.

ARM for Warchief 2016.
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So many deluded people think their rotting Waifuchief cares for them and their faction, when every scrap of internalized narrative has made it clear for years that to Sylvanas, the entirety of the Horde - including her own people - is nothing more than a shitton of bodies to stack between herself and her final death.

And all it takes is a tactically calculated "for the Horde" rallying the troops to make them all think "OMG she really does care!"
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