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  #101  
Old 04-04-2016, 02:31 PM
Ol'Yoggy Ol'Yoggy is offline

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Both Cap movies sucks terribly. Because I don't give a fuck about Cap. I don't even care about remembering his name, because he is basically a Function, the most bland character ever. The "diversity" you mention in tones for Marvel, I call that incoherences, which are extremely detrimental to the story of the MCU as a whole. Iron Man 1 has basically been reconnected by the 2, which drops the MCU harder and in a very worse way that BvS does. Hulk movies has basically been retconned out of existence because there is never even one mention of what happened there in the Avengers, the first Thor was absolute garbage, the Thor 2 was full of incoherences (really, the Earth is threatened as a whole but the Avengers don't assemble only because it happens in London ? What bullshit is that?), just like Iron Man 3 (were the fucking President of the U.S. is caught by a terrorist but Captain America doesn't even appear ! And that's just one of them).

Guardian of the Galaxy was great but it suffered from the MacGuffin syndrome of the whole Phase 2, add more complications with the whole "Marvel in Space" dropped on us when in Iron Man 3 Tony was basically traumatized that there was alien lives out there.

The only great movies of the MCU are the two Avengers, not because their characters were seeded before, but because those movies works well on their own, and even introduce new characters (especially the second). Just like BvS which is an excellent movies, criticized because it came out too late and the public is used to the MCU "fast-food" style films and dislike something which isn't the same shit in DC colours.
If Avengers had come out BEFORE Iron Man Hulk Thor it would be impossible to care or connect with them. The other films got their motivations out of the way, explained them and got us TO CARE about them. If I had not seen Iron Man beforehand I would not have cared about Tony Stark. In terms of plot holes it is no more holey than any other film and honestly diversity of tone works well. Iron Man doesn't work fighting evil norse gods. Thor does. It allows the movies to feel unique while still part of the same universe.

By shoving it all in it feels cramped and none have time to grow or evolve. People walked into avengers knowing who the heroes were and why they did what they did.

Honestly as Smoke Bladder said pretty much EVERY comic book has the problem of certain heroes doing certain things or only one hero tackling shit.

They stand on their own and are connected in ways that make sense. Karat's being a wanker.
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  #102  
Old 04-04-2016, 02:39 PM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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I think I should be declared medically retarded. Either that, or Batman v Superman shouldn't be passively watched on a half-decent camera rip, surfing the internets and doing fantasy world-building at the same time. But I could honestly not tell that those dream sequences were dream sequences until afterwards reading reviews of the movie. I thought they were flash-forwards, depicting the fallout of Batman and Superman's fight. Like actual flash-forwards and not just some imagined apocalyptic scenario.

Granted, I wasn't paying attention that much during the boring talky-talky scenes and what have you, but I feel like they could've skipped those scenes entirely. Did they actually do anything to move the story forwards? And that's not a rhetorical question. What did those dream sequences reveal about Batman and Superman that we hadn't already caught on to?
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  #103  
Old 04-04-2016, 02:45 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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The post apocalyptic scenario is real though. But it's another universe where the earth is conquered. It's just to tease Darkseid as the main villain for the Justice League movie.
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  #104  
Old 04-04-2016, 02:53 PM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
The post apocalyptic scenario is real though. But it's another universe where the earth is conquered. It's just to tease Darkseid as the main villain for the Justice League movie.
So those entire scenes had literally nothing to do with what was going on in the actual movie? It was just setting up future plot points?

I guess that's not a bad thing in itself, seeding storylines for the future, especially since they have an entire expanded franchise planned, but I feel as if it was very shoddily done. Or maybe I'm being unfair. I'll have to re-watch it once it comes out in decent quality.
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  #105  
Old 04-04-2016, 03:00 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Pretty much. It's the equivalent of a trailer for a trailer. But it's poorly done as without comic book knowledge you'd be confused as hell. If you want to re-watch it wait for the r-rated edition as it has 40 minutes that were cut from the theatrical version. Maybe the movie will make more sense then.
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  #106  
Old 04-04-2016, 04:58 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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FYI, from what I've read the next villain isn't just going to be Darkseid but also some guy from Aqualand.

These movies have too much going on in them.
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  #107  
Old 04-04-2016, 05:10 PM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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FYI, from what I've read the next villain isn't just going to be Darkseid but also some guy from Aqualand.

These movies have too much going on in them.
Is it the 2 villain Batman formula?
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  #108  
Old 04-04-2016, 06:24 PM
Lutinz Lutinz is offline

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Is it the 2 villain Batman formula?
Honestly it would make far more sense for them to not use Darkseid straight up. He is a pretty big player and if one thing BvS did worst it was trying rushing to the major leagues with little build up. If they have Darkseid in the first movie after having Doomsday in this one it makes the expectation for what comes in the third movie very high. Anti Monitor?

I think they want to drag out Darkseid a bit and have a bit more build up. My guess is the first JL movie will be about Aquaman's Atlantian half brother and his tendency to get shitty at the surface.

If Darkseid is in the movie he will be the villain and any additions will be his generals/underlings like the Furies.
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  #109  
Old 04-04-2016, 06:31 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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You mean the Throne of Atlantis rumor? God I hope it's false. It will be another excuse to have more destruction porn but this time with cities flooded and innocents drowning while the frowning ''heroes'' murder mooks above not giving a shit about anyone. The comic event is good though. Not sure how Supes' return would work in this. Snyder and Goyer have a Jesus fetish and already painted Darkseid as the Devil. Would make more sense if the man of murder makes a ''triumphant'' return to banish Darkseid.

WB/DC shot themselves in the foot and I think it's too late anyway. I don't give a shit about their cinematic universe anymore. I'm in it for the memes.

Last edited by SmokeBlader; 04-04-2016 at 06:33 PM..
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  #110  
Old 04-04-2016, 06:40 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by Ragnahar View Post
Is it the 2 villain Batman formula?
No, just more destruction and Aquaman's evil brother or something comes from the sea and attacks with his seamen.

It's really just an excuse for more wanton destruction at Snyder's hands.


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Originally Posted by SmokeBlader View Post
You mean the Throne of Atlantis rumor? God I hope it's false. It will be another excuse to have more destruction porn but this time with cities flooded and innocents drowning while the frowning ''heroes'' murder mooks above not giving a shit about anyone. The comic event is good though. Not sure how Supes' return would work in this. Snyder and Goyer have a Jesus fetish and already painted Darkseid as the Devil. Would make more sense if the man of murder makes a ''triumphant'' return to banish Darkseid.

WB/DC shot themselves in the foot and I think it's too late anyway. I don't give a shit about their cinematic universe anymore. I'm in it for the memes.
That's my fear.
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  #111  
Old 04-05-2016, 05:44 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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attacks with his seamen.
Giggity.
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  #112  
Old 04-06-2016, 03:33 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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I'm going on tenuous ground here, since I haven't seen Batman v Superman, nor do I intend to, but I found this quote from Snyder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zack Snyder
When we find him, he?s been dealing with the everyday world of being a superhero, but there?s a paradigm shift happening in that the unintended consequences of some of those rescues are starting to come into fruition.

Like, if you?re just taking a cat out of a tree, you can?t touch anything or the arborists will say, ?he damaged the tree branch when he got the cat down.? Or, ?the cat wasn?t neutered, so now there?s thousands of cats.? There?s no winning anymore for Superman.
This actually is a pretty interesting way to look at things. Pretty much every action has unintended consequences, and you could write a very good story about this sort of thing.

From what I've heard, it sounds like the unintended consequences aren't particularly important to either Batman or Superman. They aren't really relevant, nor do they inspire much self-reflection.

Plus Watchmen already did this with a lot more intelligence and ambiguity.

There might be more value in a story exploring the fact that necessary actions aren't always moral actions, and the cost paid by the people who undertake them. The Hero's Journey that ends in the hero being weaker or more calloused (or both) than they where when they started. You might be able to make this work with Batman, though I'd rather see some brand new character confront this.
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  #113  
Old 04-06-2016, 03:42 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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That'd be believable if it weren't for the fact that people should be afraid of the vast amount of property damage and casualties. This is the wrong setting to explore that side of him.
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  #114  
Old 04-06-2016, 03:44 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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That excuse doesn't even make sense, as the rest of Snyder's damage control. Like blatantly lying about Batman's action in certain comics to justify his killings in the movie. He doesn't really care about the characters and it shows. For god's sake, this is the same guy who said two costumed heroes talking to each other can't be taken seriously. Note WW and Supes don't say anything to each other in the entire movie.

And this Superman is anything but Super. Lois tells him about the news channels and people scared/concerned about his actions, and he blatantly says he doesn't care. Look at him during the rescuing montage. He isn't happy for saving those people. It's a burden for him. His way of saving a cat from a tree would be to shake the tree to scare the cat.

Last edited by SmokeBlader; 04-06-2016 at 03:47 PM..
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  #115  
Old 04-06-2016, 03:47 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Too much effort. He'd burn it down.
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  #116  
Old 04-07-2016, 09:23 AM
Lutinz Lutinz is offline

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That excuse doesn't even make sense, as the rest of Snyder's damage control. Like blatantly lying about Batman's action in certain comics to justify his killings in the movie. He doesn't really care about the characters and it shows. For god's sake, this is the same guy who said two costumed heroes talking to each other can't be taken seriously. Note WW and Supes don't say anything to each other in the entire movie.

And this Superman is anything but Super. Lois tells him about the news channels and people scared/concerned about his actions, and he blatantly says he doesn't care. Look at him during the rescuing montage. He isn't happy for saving those people. It's a burden for him. His way of saving a cat from a tree would be to shake the tree to scare the cat.
I think you really missed the point of Superman's issues. It was his alienation and the extreme nature of the reactions of everyone around him whenever he so much as turned up somewhere that bothered him, particularly when he was just trying to do the right thing. In the end, for him the point was that regardless what others thought people he cared for believed in him and gave him a place that he felt at home and that was enough for him. That was the whole point of his daddy vision on the mountain top.
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  #117  
Old 04-07-2016, 12:21 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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I think you really missed the point of Superman's issues. It was his alienation and the extreme nature of the reactions of everyone around him whenever he so much as turned up somewhere that bothered him, particularly when he was just trying to do the right thing. In the end, for him the point was that regardless what others thought people he cared for believed in him and gave him a place that he felt at home and that was enough for him. That was the whole point of his daddy vision on the mountain top.
We're saying the writers suck at portraying that since it's easy to see why citizens would freak out a guy who's both led so much harm to their planet while not putting much effort to save them.
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  #118  
Old 04-07-2016, 07:19 PM
Lutinz Lutinz is offline

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We're saying the writers suck at portraying that since it's easy to see why citizens would freak out a guy who's both led so much harm to their planet while not putting much effort to save them.
That's fair though I suspect its as much an issue with editing. A lot would have been cut out. Hell we know there was a scene in the Kryptonian ship where Lex Luthor learned about Motherboxes, Darksied and the New Gods. That one scene would have done much to explain his attitude for the rest of the movie.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think this movie was great. I don't think it was terrible either but I suspect preconceptions and disappointment made many dislike this movie more than it would have deserved otherwise. It had some really cool moments, ideas and imagery. Its just it felt like they tried to stuff so much in that there just wasn't time to explore the actual story.

If this was just batman vs superman and the whole focus had been on that and Lex manipulating and all the JL/Darkseid stuff had been left to an after credits scene I suspect this movie would have had much more meat on it and have been a lot better even if it still would have been pretty dark for a superman movie.
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  #119  
Old 04-12-2016, 11:00 PM
Porimlys Porimlys is offline

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Just saw it. Yikes.

Wonder Woman was lit, the Batfleck wasn't bad mostly just hindered by the abysmal script. Luthor might have worked as the over the top winking melodramatic if that literally everything else about the movie wasn't over the top melodrama without the wink.

Snyder has an astounding handle on visuals and that's about it, can't tell a story if his life depended on it. There's a reason the parts of the movie that worked the best were the extended fight scene with a smaller story and no dialogue.
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  #120  
Old 04-12-2016, 11:03 PM
Bullroarer Bullroarer is offline

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Snyder has an astounding handle on visuals and that's about it, can't tell a story if his life depended on it.
Guardians of Gahool was good.

But that is about it.
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  #121  
Old 04-12-2016, 11:06 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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While I dislike Snyder's style, I do think he did a pretty decent job with Watchmen.

Keeping in mind, of course, that Watchmen shouldn't have been adapted in the first place because for all its brilliance, it doesn't work well in any medium other than comics. Given that limitation though, I thought he did okay.
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  #122  
Old 04-12-2016, 11:22 PM
Porimlys Porimlys is offline

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Never saw Gahoole, and yeah I think what worked about Watchmen was the source and how much he adhered to it (visually and pacing wise, obviously there were changes) but I think the jumble of ideas they threw into the Dawn of Justice stew was just too much for him to work with. When you have that kind of visual skill as a director, a pared down and simple script is really your best bet. See: Mad Max Fury Road. Again, it's why his action sequence vs Doomsday was actually pretty awesome.

But that's because the whole film is just a pre-viz nightmare. The rest of the script was so clearly built around everything they came up with during the pre-viz development stage.
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