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Old 03-26-2014, 12:00 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Horde Flag Vol'jin's Horde

All the reflection on the different iterations of the Horde that have been discussed in other threads tires me, so I'd like to look at the future of the Horde as it stands now. What Vol'jin is likely to do, what he should do, and what people may want him to do.

There are a few things he could accomplish:

Orgrimmar: The place just went through a siege, and the first thing you do when you take a fortress is rebuild the defenses you broke on the way in. Vol'jin is likely to set up his powerbase in the Valley of Spirits, and should revamp some architecture to look more like some of the nicer troll ruins. Knock down Grommash Hold and set up a Gerubashi style Arena for the more brutal races of the Horde to vent their aggressive tendencies in.

Orcs: At least the Dragonmaw clan (under the leadership of Koak), but also possibly the Warsong and the Blackrock should be banished to Pandaria for a period of time where they are to aid in restoration efforts and learn some control over their aggressive tendancies, simultaneously improving orcs, making them actually try to atone, and giving us Japanese style orcs.

Trolls: All of them hate him and his tribe, and yet his is by far the most successful as of this time. I'm not sure how that will play, but it should make things interesting.

Forsaken: We'll have to wait and see what Sylvannas is trying to pull in War Crimes to see how he should handle it.

No particular thing he should do with them. Whatever they need, they don't need Vol'jin's help with it. Baine is probably a shoo-in for successor to Vol'jin if the Musical Thrones game that Metzen proposed at Blizzcon pans out.

Blood Elves:Lor'themar, despite almost being set up to be a rival, seems to have little desire to challenge a leader from a race that has been the sworn rival of his own (albeit a branch that opposes the one he fought for so long). He might be of use in keeping Sylvannas in check, if they handle it right.

Goblins: He's got to employ them. Possibly operations in the islands. I don't know.

Alliance: He's not looking for a fight with them, but at the same time, he believes in protecting his family. I don't think hostilities will reignite under his reign, unless Jaina or someone like that starts them.
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Old 03-26-2014, 12:02 PM
Ujimasa Hojo Ujimasa Hojo is offline

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Eh, there still butthurt Orc fans who are either pro-Garrosh or simply against the notions of a Troll warchief.
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Old 03-26-2014, 12:03 PM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

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I'm still convinced Green Jesus will be back as Warchief by the end of, or sooner after, WoD is done.

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Old 03-26-2014, 12:11 PM
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I think part of the problem with going back to an alternate Draenor is that we really won't get a chance to see what kind of a Warchief Vol'jin is until after we've fixed the timeline. His priority right now is probably repairing Orgrimmar and dealing with the remaining Hellscream loyalists (if any are left). Zul and King Rastakhan are also bound to be on his mind because after Pandaria the Zandalari forces are bound to be diminished and on-the-run.
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Old 03-26-2014, 12:13 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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I'm still convinced Green Jesus will be back as Warchief by the end of, or sooner after, WoD is done.

Which gives Vol'jin a year to get something accomplished.

That said, Metzen seemed somewhat burnt out on Thrall as of Blizzcon. He seems more likely to take on a role similar to Ner'zhul's prior to RotH.
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Old 03-26-2014, 12:14 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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We need to see what makes Vol'jin different from Thrall.
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Old 03-26-2014, 12:15 PM
Ujimasa Hojo Ujimasa Hojo is offline

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Originally Posted by Sarahmoo View Post
I think part of the problem with going back to an alternate Draenor is that we really won't get a chance to see what kind of a Warchief Vol'jin is until after we've fixed the timeline. His priority right now is probably repairing Orgrimmar and dealing with the remaining Hellscream loyalists (if any are left). Zul and King Rastakhan are also bound to be on his mind because after Pandaria the Zandalari forces are bound to be diminished and on-the-run.
Post-War Azeroth needs a lot of rebuilding but that's kinda boring from a players' perspective so I suppose a of rebuilding will be done off-screen. Heck, we might even get another novel instead covering events in Azeroth while the heroes are stuck in AlterDraenor.
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Old 03-26-2014, 12:20 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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We need to see what makes Vol'jin different from Thrall.
Well, he's not going to take orcish virtue for granted, he has not allies with anyone in particular in the Alliance (unlike Thraina) except for a single hunter of no political influence, and I'm guessing he'll have more common sense in choosing successors. How's that for a start?
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Old 03-26-2014, 12:20 PM
Korath Korath is offline

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Originally Posted by Sarahmoo View Post
I think part of the problem with going back to an alternate Draenor is that we really won't get a chance to see what kind of a Warchief Vol'jin is until after we've fixed the timeline. His priority right now is probably repairing Orgrimmar and dealing with the remaining Hellscream loyalists (if any are left). Zul and King Rastakhan are also bound to be on his mind because after Pandaria the Zandalari forces are bound to be diminished and on-the-run.
My bet is that WoD will be used to ease the next revamp of Orgrimmar, while Stormwind will keep its destroyed look and/or is ugly architecture.
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Old 03-26-2014, 12:21 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
Well, he's not going to take orcish virtue for granted, he has not allies with anyone in particular in the Alliance (unlike Thraina) except for a single hunter of no political influence, and I'm guessing he'll have more common sense in choosing successors. How's that for a start?
... Basically pointless, I'm talking more about his policies and such.

What's he going to DO that's different from what Thrall did, not how his situation is different.
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Old 03-26-2014, 12:26 PM
Reignac Reignac is offline

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Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
Which gives Vol'jin a year to get something accomplished.

That said, Metzen seemed somewhat burnt out on Thrall as of Blizzcon. He seems more likely to take on a role similar to Ner'zhul's prior to RotH.
I have to admit laughing when Metzen said "I'd apologize for him, but we don't speak anymore."
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You know, when I put the "i hate all of you" tag in threads, I'm not trying to be funny or cute. With a handful of exceptions, I really do hate almost everybody here.

It's one thing to have problems and voice your concerns, but when you endlessly bitch day in and day out about the same tired old shit, it honestly makes me wonder why you are even here. Generally when somebody doesn't like something, they stop caring about it.

And on that note, SoL is a forum I no longer enjoy. So, I'm done here. And I genuinely think the people who have absolutely nothing at all positive to say about the game and, the people whose posts are composed entirely of whining, really consider leaving (or at least sticking to non-WoW sections). Because if you truly get no enjoyment out of WoW, then why are you here?

With that said, goodbye.
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Old 03-26-2014, 12:27 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I have to admit laughing when Metzen said "I'd apologize for him, but we don't speak anymore."
That's pretty damn sad.
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Old 03-26-2014, 12:32 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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... Basically pointless, I'm talking more about his policies and such.

What's he going to DO that's different from what Thrall did, not how his situation is different.
Not to nitpick, but the only thing I pointed out in regards to his situation was his lack of contacts in the Alliance compared to Thrall's relationship with Jaina. The other two points refer to what he won't be doing that Thrall did.

Now as to what he may do instead, based on what we know, he may actually try to get the orcs to reform (which was the basis of my idea for sending some to Pandaria), and he'll make sure that the Horde doesn't regress again when he leaves by picking someone like Baine as his successor.
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Old 03-26-2014, 02:25 PM
Vexander Vexander is offline

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Honestly, I imagine Vol'jin won't do anything. On screen that is. He'll probably deal with the day to day minutiae of the Horde's politics. Signing papers, telling people to kill Quilboars, keeping water coming in from Mulgore, etc... Basically, keeping the horde from falling apart. However, I can't see him being able to enforce new policies or making any that are different from those Thrall made.

Vol'jin as Warchief will be similar to how the Alliance was when Bolvar was standing it; leaderless and directionless. Already in the next expansion the spotlight looks like its going to be back on Thrall as far as Horde Player-Characters are concerned. Thrall and Durotan. No doubt eventually Vol'jin will step down as Warchief so Thrall can come back and do something badass in a too-little-too-late attempt to regain playerbase popularity.
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Old 03-26-2014, 03:06 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
Orcs: At least the Dragonmaw clan (under the leadership of Koak), but also possibly the Warsong and the Blackrock should be banished to Pandaria for a period of time where they are to aid in restoration efforts and learn some control over their aggressive tendancies, simultaneously improving orcs, making them actually try to atone, and giving us Japanese style orcs.
Nope, he cannot ally with the Dragonmaw Clan, ever, at any given time. That would make Vol'jin a war criminal.

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I have to admit laughing when Metzen said "I'd apologize for him, but we don't speak anymore."
Wait, what? I clearly missed something important happening at Blizzcon.


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Originally Posted by Vexander View Post
Vol'jin as Warchief will be similar to how the Alliance was when Bolvar was standing it
A fondly-remembered golden age?

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 03-26-2014 at 03:13 PM..
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Old 03-26-2014, 04:05 PM
Eagan Eagan is offline

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A fondly-remembered golden age?
I yearn for Bolvar, I spurn Vol'jin.
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Old 03-26-2014, 04:06 PM
Nephalim Nephalim is offline

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Unless you're of the mind that a troll is a troll is a troll, Lor'themar probably has enough sense to distinguish the Darkspear trolls from the Amani. Of the Horde leaders, Lor'themar was one on the front lines of the rebellion and the siege would have failed without his help (assuming as I do that both the Horde and the Alliance players were instrumental in its success).

The Bilgewater Cartel absolutely demands some attention, but whether or not they get it is anyone's guess. Gallywix has been a terrible leader and attacked Thrall. I assumed the only reason he was still in power was because Garrosh didn't give enough of a shit about goblins to oust him. Gallywix has done nothing to redeem himself or earn the respect of his people, and if I was any goblin in the cartel, I would immediately go to Vol'jin and lay it all out for him once the dust had settled. A leader that selfish and ambitious is a liability, not just to his own people but the whole Horde.

I'm interested to see what they do with Orgrimmar and the orcs in the next expansion. Theoretically, with the kor'kron and the entire military command dismantled, the orcs simply won't have the manpower and expertise required to defend the city, and the rest of the Horde will have to help out, potentially making Orgrimmar into a more cosmopolitan Horde city rather than just an orc city. It'd be cool if they replaced all the dead orc warlocks with Forsaken, for example, had guards from all races, and varied the architectural styles of the buildings in the core city. The orcs need a new racial leader, too, assuming it's not simply Thrall again. I nominate Saurfang.

Frankly, I think Thrall's story has long since run its course and now he just looks like an idiot half the time. They should've killed him in the Dragon Soul raid. Then when they didn't, they should've had Garrosh actually kill him at the beginning of his encounter. They seem to be transitioning to 4th generation characters anyway, I don't see why they're dragging their feet on him so much.
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Old 03-26-2014, 04:30 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Unless you're of the mind that a troll is a troll is a troll, Lor'themar probably has enough sense to distinguish the Darkspear trolls from the Amani. Of the Horde leaders, Lor'themar was one on the front lines of the rebellion and the siege would have failed without his help (assuming as I do that both the Horde and the Alliance players were instrumental in its success).

The Bilgewater Cartel absolutely demands some attention, but whether or not they get it is anyone's guess. Gallywix has been a terrible leader and attacked Thrall. I assumed the only reason he was still in power was because Garrosh didn't give enough of a shit about goblins to oust him. Gallywix has done nothing to redeem himself or earn the respect of his people, and if I was any goblin in the cartel, I would immediately go to Vol'jin and lay it all out for him once the dust had settled. A leader that selfish and ambitious is a liability, not just to his own people but the whole Horde.

I'm interested to see what they do with Orgrimmar and the orcs in the next expansion. Theoretically, with the kor'kron and the entire military command dismantled, the orcs simply won't have the manpower and expertise required to defend the city, and the rest of the Horde will have to help out, potentially making Orgrimmar into a more cosmopolitan Horde city rather than just an orc city. It'd be cool if they replaced all the dead orc warlocks with Forsaken, for example, had guards from all races, and varied the architectural styles of the buildings in the core city. The orcs need a new racial leader, too, assuming it's not simply Thrall again. I nominate Saurfang.

Frankly, I think Thrall's story has long since run its course and now he just looks like an idiot half the time. They should've killed him in the Dragon Soul raid. Then when they didn't, they should've had Garrosh actually kill him at the beginning of his encounter. They seem to be transitioning to 4th generation characters anyway, I don't see why they're dragging their feet on him so much.
Mmm, problem with Goblins is that Gallywix, for all his flaws, represents the Goblin Ideal. You climb yor way over your competition to the top and then rub it in their faces, exploiting whatever you can to do it. Goblins aren't supposed to have morals or ethics beyond the point that a certain level of immorality will in fact hurt the bottom line.

I'd rather see the orcs led by a group of clan chieftains, similar if slightly larger than the council of 3 hammers.

I like a more affluent orgimmar with undead in the Cleft, but where would you put BE's?

I would have killed Thrall either just before or during the siege, but I'd have done the same to Varian too. WoD might offer opportunities for both he and Varian to die, but I don't see it as a necessity any more.
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Old 03-26-2014, 05:06 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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Mmm, problem with Goblins is that Gallywix, for all his flaws, represents the Goblin Ideal. You climb yor way over your competition to the top and then rub it in their faces, exploiting whatever you can to do it. Goblins aren't supposed to have morals or ethics beyond the point that a certain level of immorality will in fact hurt the bottom line.
I think Gallywix and Goblins in general live below that level every day. Morals and ethics do produce profits, they do not simply tie your hands, contrary to the belief endorsed by Blizzard that doing the right thing amounts to a slow decline and letting evil prevail with no answer whatsoever.

Basically the Alliance are the good guys and because they're the good guys, they can never win. And apparently people are supposed to feel good about losing for the right reasons?

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I'd rather see the orcs led by a group of clan chieftains, similar if slightly larger than the council of 3 hammers.
How were chieftains selected in the past? Come to think of it, shamans were not chieftains on Old Draenor, no?

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I would have killed Thrall either just before or during the siege, but I'd have done the same to Varian too. WoD might offer opportunities for both he and Varian to die, but I don't see it as a necessity any more.
I don't think Varian needs to die. He just needs to find his place. Unlike Thrall, he hasn't attained god-like powers or single handedly saved the world. He's just a human king the writers chained the Alliance story to. If they actually imposed limitations on Varian in which he had to work, he could be compelling and interesting.

But as long as he has the PC character to throw at all of his problems...
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Old 03-26-2014, 05:14 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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Mmm, problem with Goblins is that Gallywix, for all his flaws, represents the Goblin Ideal. You climb yor way over your competition to the top and then rub it in their faces, exploiting whatever you can to do it. Goblins aren't supposed to have morals or ethics beyond the point that a certain level of immorality will in fact hurt the bottom line.
.
Gallywix is an incompetent sociopath who was going to lose his position anyway, and only kept it due to Thrall wearing the dunce cap that day.

He needs to go.

Goblins need a leader values their lives to some extent.
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Old 03-26-2014, 05:15 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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How were chieftains selected in the past? Come to think of it, shamans were not chieftains on Old Draenor, no?



Most of the time being cheiftain was hereditary, but I imagine one could make a challenge for the title. Shaman cheiftains were rare (conflict of interests between the elements and the needs of the clan), but not unheard of, with examples such as Ner'zhul an Zuluhed.
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Old 03-26-2014, 05:23 PM
JorgeAxe JorgeAxe is offline

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I'd also note that most goblin leaders such as Gazlowe are smart enough to treat their direct employees well.

Gallywix is a fool for making an enemy out of everyone around him.
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Old 03-26-2014, 05:25 PM
Nephalim Nephalim is offline

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Mmm, problem with Goblins is that Gallywix, for all his flaws, represents the Goblin Ideal. You climb yor way over your competition to the top and then rub it in their faces, exploiting whatever you can to do it. Goblins aren't supposed to have morals or ethics beyond the point that a certain level of immorality will in fact hurt the bottom line.
I don't think that's an accurate interpretation. Goblins are opportunists who value money and material wealth, but that doesn't mean that concepts of honour or community are totally lost on them. I mean even when Branzlit is refusing to hand over the bank's gold - which technically isn't his - to Mokvar doesn't that take some bravery and selflessness? The Bilgewater Cartel came on some hard hard times, and they had to come together to make it out alive. Gallywix attempted to impede that, tried to screw everyone over, and got away with it on pretty much a technical error. I don't see the goblins standing for that.
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I'd rather see the orcs led by a group of clan chieftains, similar if slightly larger than the council of 3 hammers.
I could see that, only the clan structure seems to have largely disintegrated after Warcraft III. The whole Horde became much more communal.
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I like a more affluent orgimmar with undead in the Cleft, but where would you put BE's?
Up top, near the Earthshrine.
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I would have killed Thrall either just before or during the siege, but I'd have done the same to Varian too. WoD might offer opportunities for both he and Varian to die, but I don't see it as a necessity any more.
The thing with Varian is he's still developing. Thrall's been the same guy for ten years. I expect the baby's only gonna make him nicer, and I really doubt that Blizzard has the stones to kill Thrall's wife and infant child, which is really the only thing that would prompt a turnaround. Anduin, despite being a problematic character in his own right, has had a profound effect on Varian. I don't particularly like him, and I have problems with the current political structure of the Alliance, but he still has ways to go. Thrall's gone from being a strong core character to, at least to me, largely annoying and redundant.
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Old 03-26-2014, 07:30 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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It's taken about 10 years for people to hate Thrall for being exactly what he's always been since his character's introduction. Early-College Version of myself laughs, and laughs, and weeps a little.
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Old 03-26-2014, 08:26 PM
Westlee Westlee is offline
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It's taken about 10 years for people to hate Thrall for being exactly what he's always been since his character's introduction. Early-College Version of myself laughs, and laughs, and weeps a little.
He sounded nice enough and the Tauren liked him, so...
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