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Old 10-03-2012, 08:15 PM
Shaman Shaman is offline

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Grunt Why did it take so long for Thrall's Horde to reach out to Zul'jin?

In the Zul'Aman trailer, you see that Horde emissaries only arrived at Zul'Aman shortly after the blood elves had joined the faction. This is why Zul'jin refused to rejoin the Horde because he would never work alongside the elves. But this doesn't really make sense when you consider the timeline. Thrall had been Warchief for a good few years before the events of The Burning Crusade. He reached out to as many allies as he could so that the wayward Horde would not be crushed by the larger Alliance. He even took the Forsaken into the fold.

But why on Earth would it take him so long to get in contact with Zul'jin? He was an important ally in the Second War and his Amani tribe would have been very geopolitically significant for the fledgling New Horde and its efforts in the Eastern Kingdoms. There weren't even any blood elves in the Horde at that time and Warchief Thrall already had the support of both the Revantusk and Darkspear tribes, so obviously he had no problems about working with the trolls. It just doesn't seem to make sense why Thrall would wait so many years before trying to extend relations to Zul'jin.

What was the delay?
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Old 10-03-2012, 08:21 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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He's prejudiced against da forest trolls, mon.
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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Old 10-03-2012, 08:44 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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He can't believe they were ever part of the Horde.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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Old 10-03-2012, 08:54 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Oh. I had to rewatch the trailer, because I never realized that there were Horde emissaries in it (around 1:16 in the video, it turns out). I wouldn't expect Thrall to send emissaries to Zul'jin because, as others have already pointed out...

Forest trolls! I still can't believe they were ever a part of the Horde.


EDIT: And again, it's hilarious because in Warcraft II, the Trolls were arguably the most sympathetic race in the Horde.

EDIT EDIT: Maybe those aren't Horde emissaries. Maybe after the Blood Elves joined, they were like: "Hey guys, you know what would be hilarious? Let's go parade in front of Zul'jin with our new Horde buddies. Tee hee hee! He gonna be piiiiissed."

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 10-03-2012 at 09:06 PM..
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Old 10-03-2012, 09:05 PM
Volkrin Volkrin is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
And again, it's hilarious because in Warcraft II, the Trolls were arguably the most sympathetic race in the Horde.
It's really kind of a perfect representation of Thrall's mindset at that point though. When he said that he was still buying into the whitewashed history that he'd been fed - before Grom burst his bubble full of victimized orcs and puppetmaster demons - and as such would have been disdainful of the trolls who went along with the Old Horde without needing demonic coercion. As for why his opinions didn't change after realizing that the orcs themselves were not so blameless... yeah, I got nothin'.
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Old 10-03-2012, 09:12 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Volkrin View Post
It's really kind of a perfect representation of Thrall's mindset at that point though. When he said that he was still buying into the whitewashed history that he'd been fed - before Grom burst his bubble full of victimized orcs and puppetmaster demons - and as such would have been disdainful of the trolls who went along with the Old Horde without needing demonic coercion. As for why his opinions didn't change after realizing that the orcs themselves were not so blameless... yeah, I got nothin'.
Possible, but I still maintain that according to Warcraft III lore, the Forest Trolls were presented as evil evil evil. It's plastered all over the instruction manual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll Headhunter description
Though the horde allied itself with the evil forest trolls during the Second War, the alliance was short lived due to the horde's eventual defeat. But Thrall, on one of his many journeys, befriended a tribe of shadowy trolls from the steamy jungles of Stranglethorn.
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Originally Posted by Forest Troll description
They are vile creatures for the most part, practicing voodoo, ritual sacrifices, and in some cases - though never documented, cannibalism.
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Originally Posted by Ice Troll description
Like their evil forest troll cousins, ice trolls revel in carnage and wickedness.

Surprisingly, it looks like World of Warcraft extended this wickedness to the Jungle Trolls as well, in the original intro for the Darkspear Jungle Trolls:

Quote:
Originally Posted by WoW Vanilla Troll intro
The vicious trolls that populate the numerous jungle isles of the South Seas are renowned for their cruelty and their dark mysticism. Barbarous and superstitious, they carry a seething hatred for all other races.
In Warcraft III, Forest Trolls were evil little monsters. World of Warcraft lessened this a bit, but by then the Darkspear had already taken up the "troll" slot.
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Old 10-03-2012, 10:14 PM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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One possibility is access. While level certainly is gameplay and not part of lore, the Plaguelands were some of the most dangerous territory in Azeroth at the time. Like how the Alliance never really got in touch with the forces that would become the Scarlets and Argents until after they solidified their identities, the Horde likely could not afford to frivolously send emissaries to make contact with a most likely hostile race.

This is possibly why contact was also not made with the blood elves on the part of both factions until Burning Crusade, after the defeat (and retreat) of Naxxramas.
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The Alliance's three rules on faction conflict:
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2) You can't break even.
3) You can't leave the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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Old 10-03-2012, 10:19 PM
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Why did Thrall's Horde reach out to Zul'jin at all at that point? Is that even what is really happening in the trailer?
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Old 10-03-2012, 10:28 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Revenant View Post
Why did Thrall's Horde reach out to Zul'jin at all at that point? Is that even what is really happening in the trailer?
Exactly!

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
EDIT EDIT: Maybe those aren't Horde emissaries. Maybe after the Blood Elves joined, they were like: "Hey guys, you know what would be hilarious? Let's go parade in front of Zul'jin with our new Horde buddies. Tee hee hee! He gonna be piiiiissed."
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Old 10-03-2012, 10:31 PM
Jungleluke Jungleluke is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Revenant View Post
Why did Thrall's Horde reach out to Zul'jin at all at that point? Is that even what is really happening in the trailer?
I always thought those were just Horde adventurers ready to plunder some?
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:13 AM
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Wasn't Zul'jin missing or otherwise incommunicado up until patch 2.1? I mean, the Revantusks were looking for him, which implies they didn't know where he was, and you can't reach out to a guy who's not there.
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:21 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
Wasn't Zul'jin missing or otherwise incommunicado up until patch 2.1? I mean, the Revantusks were looking for him, which implies they didn't know where he was, and you can't reach out to a guy who's being tortured and kept hidden by the Blood Elves, those fiends.
Edited to promote political agenda.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 10-04-2012 at 12:28 AM..
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:36 AM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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Man now I'm just biting my fist because there's info I wish I could say about that.
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:39 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
Man now I'm just biting my fist because there's info I wish I could say about that.
Yeah yeah, I know. He was really just running a trading post in one of the orc internment camps, trying to take a step back from everything for a few years.
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:48 AM
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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Yeah yeah, I know. He was really just running a trading post in one of the orc internment camps, trying to take a step back from everything for a few years.
That trading post was just a mob front!
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Old 10-04-2012, 01:08 AM
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Man now I'm just biting my fist because there's info I wish I could say about that.
Is said info ever likely to go anywhere?
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Old 10-04-2012, 03:42 AM
Furrkane Furrkane is offline

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I think when the Blood Elves joined the Horde, Thrall probably thought that getting the Forest Trolls of Zul'Aman to join would secure interest in the area. But he should of known that Zul'Jin would never side with Elves.

Which is weird if tried to get them to join without knowing.
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Old 10-04-2012, 04:02 AM
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Is said info ever likely to go anywhere?
Maybe if you ask some Blizz employees about Zul'jin's actions in ZA or earlier drafts for the dungeon's stories at a public QA or something.
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Old 10-04-2012, 05:07 AM
Ardeiute Ardeiute is offline

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Is Zul'jin dead? From..uh..Tides of Darkness?
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Old 10-04-2012, 05:15 AM
Zaelsino Zaelsino is offline

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Maybe Thrall saw no value in approaching him. Zul'jin was staked out in what was essentially a post-apocalyptic ghostland (pun) for a stretch of time; merely venturing there could have been seen as sketchy before he had a reliable foothold in Quel'Thalas.
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Old 10-04-2012, 05:57 AM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
earlier drafts for the dungeon's stories at a public QA or something.
Wait wait wait, Blizzard's first thought wasn't about getting Budd's group to kill the single most prominent troll up until then?

Oh man... Kellick's probably gonna... get bummed out or something!
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The Alliance's three rules on faction conflict:
1) You can't win.
2) You can't break even.
3) You can't leave the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustrum View Post
Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #22  
Old 10-04-2012, 06:13 AM
Shaman Shaman is offline

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I don't buy the premise that it would have been too difficult to send emissaries to Zul'jin sooner. Thrall has people who's job it is to go into dangerous areas to deliver messages, just look at the longstriders. He could have sent runners or bat-riders or a mage or even envoys from the Undercity.

If Brann Bronzebeard can break into Ahn'Qiraj and Perith Stormhoof can make it to Outland and back, then I'm pretty sure it was within Thrall's power to get someone to Zul'Aman in one piece.
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Old 10-04-2012, 06:16 AM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Millenia View Post
Wait wait wait, Blizzard's first thought wasn't about getting Budd's group to kill the single most prominent troll up until then?

Oh man... Kellick's probably gonna... get bummed out or something!
Think about the one boss in ZA who's out of place and what's odd about it.
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Old 10-04-2012, 06:26 AM
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The only weird thing about the bosses that I can remember is that description of how Hex Lord Malacrass sealed the animal gods and "kept the darkest one for himself", even though there was no fifth god that appeared in his fight.
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Old 10-04-2012, 06:42 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
Think about the one boss in ZA who's out of place and what's odd about it.


Can someone please think about the one boss in ZA who's out of place and tell the non-WoW players what's odd about it?

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Originally Posted by Sarahmoo View Post
The only weird thing about the bosses that I can remember is that description of how Hex Lord Malacrass sealed the animal gods and "kept the darkest one for himself", even though there was no fifth god that appeared in his fight.
Thanks... is this the consensus on the odd boss out?
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