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  #6776  
Old 09-16-2018, 02:07 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is online now

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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
Not to mention that the actions of the Cult of the Damned and Arthas would have made the Alliance more wary of Scourge infiltrators. Especially if they already look the part and were known associates.
And really this makes the Alliance's reaction to the Forsaken logical, while the blood elves' reaction made no sense.

Both Silvermoon and Lordaeron fell because of Scourge agents posing as allies, then betraying them from within. It remains just plain dumb that a single Forsaken emissary would even be given the time of day by the blood elves after what happened with Arthas and Dar'khan.

And despite Chronicle saying so, the newer, "friendlier Horde" giving the Forsaken a chance shouldn't have mattered. To Lor'themar, Thrall trusting them should have looked like a terrible mistake being made in ignorance rather than some sort of remotely viable proof that the Forsaken were on the level.
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  #6777  
Old 09-16-2018, 04:28 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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From what little we know of Garithos, he was an asshole, but he was an lawful one and kept his word. Him not being too keen on the blood elves allying with naga and considering them traitors for it, although they only did so out of desperation, actually makes sense if you factor in that the naga had previously fought Alliance forces and imprisoned one of its paladin commanders.

While I agree that he would have eventually attacked the undead, I am of the belief that he would have actually waited for their temporary alliance to be over, unlike Sylvanas did. (At this point it would not have been a betrayal.)

Sure, she was smart about it and it was likely the best course of action for her, if she had no intended to ally with the Alliance.

Expecting the Alliance to simply ignore her actions is ridiculous. She had done nothing to portray her people as any better than the Scourge. She had given the Alliance absolutely no reason to trust her.

Not to mention that the actions of the Cult of the Damned and Arthas would have made the Alliance more wary of Scourge infiltrators. Especially if they already look the part and were known associates.
All true, but there’s many, many steps they could have taken between welcoming them back with open arms and killing them. An envoy from Northshire and/or the Cathedral of Light (complete with Paladin Escorts) to research who and what these undead are and open up some sort of diplomatic discourse would have gone a long way. Have them set up an Embassy in Southshore and at least attempt Civil Discourse.
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  #6778  
Old 09-16-2018, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
All true, but there’s many, many steps they could have taken between welcoming them back with open arms and killing them. An envoy from Northshire and/or the Cathedral of Light (complete with Paladin Escorts) to research who and what these undead are and open up some sort of diplomatic discourse would have gone a long way. Have them set up an Embassy in Southshore and at least attempt Civil Discourse.
Why would the Alliance go to such lengths? If the Forsaken are the ones trying to initiate contact, it falls on the forsaken's shoulders the task to make that contact happen. If she was really into trying to get on the Alliance's good side, Sylvanas is a total moron for sending undead as embassadors. She should have tried using a third party as mediator. Even hiring goblins to deliver messages would be a better effort, so she arrange for a proper meeting in a neutral place.

But what really bothers me about Horde victimism is that if the Alliance adopted the same standard, the Horde would still be the aggressor and would deserve all kinds of retaliation until the end of the days. The way the Forsaken justify their hostile actions, if applied by the Alliance, could justify doing anything against the Horde, as the Horde was the first one to strike and that can't be changed. If the Alliance acted like the Horde, the Horde wouldn't exist at all.
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  #6779  
Old 09-16-2018, 06:01 AM
Royalpimp Royalpimp is offline

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Doesn't really matter how much of an asshole Garithos was, he was still an Alliance official who hadn't moved against the Forsaken when he was killed. As far as the Alliance is concerned that's all that should matter.
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And Lordaeron

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And that is the Drama to being part of the Horde. There are people out there who want you dead. You honestly can’t blame them. Do you lie down and die for them? No. You enjoy the challenge. You keep your head up and move forward.
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  #6780  
Old 09-16-2018, 06:27 AM
spidey1980 spidey1980 is offline

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Why would the Alliance go to such lengths
What lengths? All they would've needed to do was listen for five minutes. They could have done that with a million cannons pointed at the envoys in case it was a ruse.
What really bothers me about the Alliance's attitude here is that they are unwilling to admit that they made mistakes as well. I'm not sure i remember it correctly, but i think Anduin at least does in Before the Storm but by that point it is too late. Sylvanas is enforcing this narrative and the resulting hatred runs way too deep to change things.
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  #6781  
Old 09-16-2018, 07:04 AM
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What lengths? All they would've needed to do was listen for five minutes. They could have done that with a million cannons pointed at the envoys in case it was a ruse.
What really bothers me about the Alliance's attitude here is that they are unwilling to admit that they made mistakes as well. I'm not sure i remember it correctly, but i think Anduin at least does in Before the Storm but by that point it is too late. Sylvanas is enforcing this narrative and the resulting hatred runs way too deep to change things.
So, the Alliance made a mistake. Is that reason to push for war? Is that justification for all the heinous things the forsaken did over the years? Is that a way out for all of Sylvanas' actions?

That's the real problem: Alliance may have been wrong a few times, but what Horde does because of those mistakes is way worse. If the Alliance acted the same way, the Horde wouldn't exist anymore.
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  #6782  
Old 09-16-2018, 09:07 AM
spidey1980 spidey1980 is offline

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So, the Alliance made a mistake. Is that reason to push for war?
No but it's the source of the hatred which then only got stronger due to the conflict with the Scarlet Crusade. That just reinforced the Humans=bad/prejudiced mindset.
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  #6783  
Old 09-16-2018, 11:08 AM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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"The humans were mean to us, so let's start experimenting on them with biological weapons and lobotomize them while awake because we are so discriminated against!"

that'll work lol
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Just remember, the Alliance is only ever allowed to passively defend itself against the Horde, and Taurajo was Azeroth's equivalent of the Holocaust.
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  #6784  
Old 09-16-2018, 12:49 PM
spidey1980 spidey1980 is offline

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"The humans were mean to us, so let's start experimenting on them with biological weapons and lobotomize them while awake because we are so discriminated against!"
Yes and every single human being is a racist asshole like Garithos.
See? I can be stereotypical too!
Too bad it's not helping the discussion. Like...ever.
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  #6785  
Old 09-16-2018, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by spidey1980 View Post
Yes and every single human being is a racist asshole like Garithos.
See? I can be stereotypical too!
Too bad it's not helping the discussion. Like...ever.
You're just confirming Quirnhelm's post.

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No but it's the source of the hatred which then only got stronger due to the conflict with the Scarlet Crusade. That just reinforced the Humans=bad/prejudiced mindset.
So, it's okay for the forsaken to use the Scarlet Crusade as reason to hate humans, but it isn't okay for the humans to use the Scourge as reason to hate the forsaken.

Riiiiight.
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  #6786  
Old 09-16-2018, 03:10 PM
spidey1980 spidey1980 is offline

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You're just confirming Quirnhelm's post.
You are very astute. The stereotyping on both sides is the core of the issue.

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So, it's okay for the forsaken to use the Scarlet Crusade as reason to hate humans, but it isn't okay for the humans to use the Scourge as reason to hate the forsaken.

Riiiiight.
When did i say that any of this was ok??
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  #6787  
Old 09-16-2018, 08:31 PM
Krainz Krainz is online now

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Doing the last steps of the war campaign today. Happy about void elf protagonism and presence.

Also shandris' agency overall.
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  #6788  
Old 09-16-2018, 08:47 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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It’s the same “it’s red it’s dead” mentality that Alliance fans are willing to justify with Daelin as well. He misrepresented himself to invite Thrall to a Peace Summit and assassinate him. Flag of truce seems to mean little to the Alliance. Jaina’s purge on Dalaran. Genn’s Assassination attempt on Sylvanas. Anduin bringing a usurper to the family meets. See the pattern? I’ll admit the Horde has broken the peace each time, but why wouldn’t they if this is the Alliance idea of “peace.” It’s an olive branch in one hand and a dagger in the other. So the Horde chops up that olive branch with an axe. Get your sword. At least that’s honest.

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  #6789  
Old 09-16-2018, 09:43 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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Here's something really weird and potentially interesting.

The Ruins of Gilneas map is broken in BfA. All characters who had the map uncovered have had it reversed to being blank and there is no way to re-fill in the map. Ujimasa informed me that this isn't the only weird thing going on with Gilneas, as taken from Wowpedia (bold emphasis mine):

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-As of Battle for Azeroth, the zone is glitched and its zone map cannot be uncovered.
-Notably, Gilneas City can be clicked from the world-map as one could with a faction city.
-Greymane Manor's map, which was previously broken since Mists of Pandaria, has been ironically fixed.
Something definitely seems to be up with Gilneas. I thought the randomly updated Uther's Tomb meant we'd get a "return to Lordaeron" patch, but by that I thought more in line with Tirisfal and maybe WPL. Now, I wonder if it might be updates throughout the entire subcontinent.
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  #6790  
Old 09-16-2018, 10:33 PM
spidey1980 spidey1980 is offline

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Probably just another bug in Beta for Azeroth.
Vol'dun is bugged too. 1 out of 4 times i can't use any skills that require a target. Imagine doing world quests with nothing but weak AoE skills and autoattack...
I can't even open my fucking bags...
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  #6791  
Old 09-17-2018, 12:01 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is online now

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So, I've concluded that Mythic-only dungeons are a functionally and fundamentally stupid idea.

There's absolutely no good reason for it. It's a pointless squandering of resources and a massive pain in the ass that makes me not give a flying fuck about finishing the associated storyline.
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  #6792  
Old 09-17-2018, 01:14 AM
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So, I've concluded that Mythic-only dungeons are a functionally and fundamentally stupid idea.

There's absolutely no good reason for it. It's a pointless squandering of resources and a massive pain in the ass that makes me not give a flying fuck about finishing the associated storyline.
I can help you with that if you play on Alliance/US.
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  #6793  
Old 09-17-2018, 03:43 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Originally Posted by Insane Guy of Doom View Post
Here's something really weird and potentially interesting.

The Ruins of Gilneas map is broken in BfA. All characters who had the map uncovered have had it reversed to being blank and there is no way to re-fill in the map. Ujimasa informed me that this isn't the only weird thing going on with Gilneas, as taken from Wowpedia (bold emphasis mine):



Something definitely seems to be up with Gilneas. I thought the randomly updated Uther's Tomb meant we'd get a "return to Lordaeron" patch, but by that I thought more in line with Tirisfal and maybe WPL. Now, I wonder if it might be updates throughout the entire subcontinent.
The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a patch per continent. Nazjatar is on the Kalimdor side of the Maelstrom. The next Warfront is confirmed for Central Kalimdor. There’s pretty good indications for a Wailing Caverns revamp and I wouldn’t be surprised if we saw the fall of Azuremyst. 8.1 is for Kalimdor. While we have considerably less concrete info about 8.2, I’d say IGoD’s info plus the Warfront plus Uther’s tomb make a Northern Eastern Kingdoms based 8.2 quite reasonable.
I still think 8.3 is siege of Stormwind. That’s just me though.
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  #6794  
Old 09-17-2018, 04:36 AM
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I don't think Stormwind will be part of a patch content.
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  #6795  
Old 09-17-2018, 04:51 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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I don't think Stormwind will be part of a patch content.
I’ll admit, there’s precious little that says that the Finale will be Siege of Stormwind. Just statements by Sylvanas in “Before the Storm” and “A Good War” that identify Stormwind as her ultimate objective. I sincerely doubt we’ve seen the end of her plans, so it makes sense that the final showdown will be there. Other candidates in my mind include Hyjal (poetic seeing as how the first peace between Horde and Alliance was there), Silithus (fighting over that Sword sticking out of the ground), Nyalotha Rosen from the depths or maybe the Shadowlands (but I really think that’s next expansion). Where do you think the finale will be?
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  #6796  
Old 09-17-2018, 06:00 AM
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I don't think Stormwind will be part of a patch content.
While I still entertain the idea, I'm starting to think the final patch may be Silvermoon instead. There's enough hints out there that something is amiss with the Sunwell, and Silvermoon could be the final battle of the faction war, capping several storylines at once.
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  #6797  
Old 09-17-2018, 06:51 AM
Ujimasa Hojo Ujimasa Hojo is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Insane Guy of Doom View Post
Here's something really weird and potentially interesting.

The Ruins of Gilneas map is broken in BfA. All characters who had the map uncovered have had it reversed to being blank and there is no way to re-fill in the map. Ujimasa informed me that this isn't the only weird thing going on with Gilneas, as taken from Wowpedia (bold emphasis mine):



Something definitely seems to be up with Gilneas. I thought the randomly updated Uther's Tomb meant we'd get a "return to Lordaeron" patch, but by that I thought more in line with Tirisfal and maybe WPL. Now, I wonder if it might be updates throughout the entire subcontinent.
Remember the Siege of Stromgarde datamine way back in Mists? Now we have the Battle of Stromgarde. Guess something is finally happening in Gilneas again... in 3 expansions

As for the Siege of Stormwind talk, the Zandalari could help in getting the remaining trolls of Zul Gurub to bolster the Horde.
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  #6798  
Old 09-17-2018, 07:20 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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All I want is a Worgen town that's like Brill where it's a real town and gets cool things like a bunch of of pumpkins sitting on it when it's Hallow's End like Forsaken towns do.
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  #6799  
Old 09-17-2018, 11:24 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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One thing that would be awesome is if Azshara claims the Sunwell and absorbs its power. The blood elves would be forced to look elsewhere for sustenance, tieing into the Bleeding Sun order with the tauren and Zandalari, and the Alliance could use the opportunity to attach Quel'Thalas, now unprotected by the Ban'dinoriel.
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  #6800  
Old 09-17-2018, 11:35 AM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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One thing that would be awesome is if Azshara claims the Sunwell and absorbs its power. The blood elves would be forced to look elsewhere for sustenance, tieing into the Bleeding Sun order with the tauren and Zandalari, and the Alliance could use the opportunity to attach Quel'Thalas, now unprotected by the Ban'dinoriel.
There is that out of nowhere subplot in Nazmir that the naga are struggling with magic addiction and are looking for a permanent magic source to feed on (which for some reason they've decided is Krag'wa's giant frog children). Heck, maybe that's why they wanted the Tidestone so badly in Legion. We never did find out why they wanted it all of a sudden, Khadgar just says them being after it is "unexpected."
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