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  #301  
Old 12-18-2016, 05:45 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
So am I wrong to assume they teach stuff like this in California public schools? :3
I have no idea, but I hope so. I wasn't in a Current Events class during the election.
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Old 12-18-2016, 06:00 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I have no idea, but I hope so. I wasn't in a Current Events class during the election.
Were you not educated about the evils of Republicans in public school?
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  #303  
Old 12-18-2016, 06:19 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Were you not educated about the evils of Republicans in public school?
Not Republicans, just right-wing ideals in general through history. Slavery, child labor and other dangerous practices during the industrial revolution, the opposition to the civil rights movement, fascism in Europe, etc. That was mostly after I'd moved to Michigan, though, come to think of it.
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  #304  
Old 12-18-2016, 06:49 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Not Republicans, just right-wing ideals in general through history. Slavery, child labor and other dangerous practices during the industrial revolution, the opposition to the civil rights movement, fascism in Europe, etc. That was mostly after I'd moved to Michigan, though, come to think of it.
I know in a Michigan elementary school I was moved to an advanced Science class and they taught us evolution/big bang theory and painted the Catholic Church as anti-science in its persecution of Galileo. Being an impressionable third grader I became really irreligious and threw a fit until my parents took me out of church. I didn't even know the difference between Catholics or the Lutheran Church I went to. Being hand selected to be in the exclusive class just fed my 9 year old ego so much and the teacher even put a science article I wrote on the wall. I didn't know that the Catholic Church believed in evolution or the role it played in preserving and advancing science until I was an adult.

A lot of the stuff in K-12 school was pretty useless and pointless in the adult world. Looking back a lot of it seemed pretty heavy on the indoctrination. I was never taught to associate right-wing ideals with every bad idea every conceived through out history and it seems too contrived and convenient for partisan ends to be true. In Indiana my parents prioritized the public school system in regards to what house to buy because that is how restricted our public education is. When my parents divorced and I had to live with my mother I became a bit depressed so when she moved they put me into a charter school.

After growing up I just can't help but feel resentment for our public schools. The inner city public schools my mother teaches at just feel like an even worse joke. Now that I support school choice and decentralized education according to many people I have aligned myself with every bad idea of history because of this right-wing idea of nonsense. It just feels like something we spend a ridiculous amount of money on only exists to prop itself up. The public servants lack accountability and ceased serving the public. It isn't because I hate education and want more people to be stupid like me but that seems to be the typical rehearsed response. Do you have oppositions to charter schools and school choice?
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Old 12-18-2016, 06:58 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
I know in a Michigan elementary school I was moved to an advanced Science class and they taught us evolution/big bang theory and painted the Catholic Church as anti-science in its persecution of Galileo. Being an impressionable third grader I became really irreligious and threw a fit until my parents took me out of church. I didn't even know the difference between Catholics or the Lutheran Church I went to. Being hand selected to be in the exclusive class just fed my 9 year old ego so much and the teacher even put a science article I wrote on the wall. I didn't know that the Catholic Church believed in evolution or the role it played in preserving and advancing science until I was an adult.

A lot of the stuff in K-12 school was pretty useless and pointless in the adult world. Looking back a lot of it seemed pretty heavy on the indoctrination. I was never taught to associate right-wing ideals with every bad idea every conceived through out history and it seems too contrived and convenient for partisan ends to be true. In Indiana my parents prioritized the public school system in regards to what house to buy because that is how restricted our public education is. When my parents divorced and I had to live with my mother I became a bit depressed so when she moved they put me into a charter school.

After growing up I just can't help but feel resentment for our public schools. The inner city public schools my mother teaches at just feel like an even worse joke. Now that I support school choice and decentralized education according to many people I have aligned myself with every bad idea of history because of this right-wing idea of nonsense. It just feels like something we spend a ridiculous amount of money on only exists to prop itself up. The public servants lack accountability and ceased serving the public. It isn't because I hate education and want more people to be stupid like me but that seems to be the typical rehearsed response. Do you have oppositions to charter schools and school choice?
It was never explicitly stated that these were all right-wing ideals, but it eventually clicked that conservatives have been wrong about pretty much everything in history and society progresses in spite of them.
The whole "school voucher" thing seems like a bad idea. It sounds like it'll just result in public schools getting less money while people send their kids to schools that preach the local beliefs and strengthen their insular bubble. Every child in the South will be forced to go to Christian schools where they teach the universe is 6,000 years old because the local public schools won't be able afford to heat the buildings in the winter.
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Old 12-18-2016, 07:19 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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It was never explicitly stated that these were all right-wing ideals, but it eventually clicked that conservatives have been wrong about pretty much everything in history and society progresses in spite of them.
The whole "school voucher" thing seems like a bad idea. It sounds like it'll just result in public schools getting less money while people send their kids to schools that preach the local beliefs and strengthen their insular bubble. Every child in the South will be forced to go to Christian schools where they teach the universe is 6,000 years old because the local public schools won't be able afford to heat the buildings in the winter.
You don't find it the least bit suspect that you have attributed every failed or bad idea in history to right-wing ideals? Isn't that a massive oversimplification and overly convenient when a political party can convince people of something like that?

Some public schools would lose money if people's parents take their kids out of the schools and put them in better ones. The school would actually have to be worth something. Instead of a top-down Ministry of Truth approach to education we would have a more diverse array of education. There would be more accountability, flexibility, and no monopoly on information dissemination. If someone thinks our public schools are failing and serves itself instead of the public why wouldn't they support a policy that would break all that up but giving more power to tax payers and less to school districts?
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Old 12-18-2016, 07:27 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
You don't find it the least bit suspect that you have attributed every failed or bad idea in history to right-wing ideals? Isn't that a massive oversimplification and overly convenient when a political party can convince people of something like that?

Some public schools would lose money if people's parents take their kids out of the schools and put them in better ones. The school would actually have to be worth something. Instead of a top-down Ministry of Truth approach to education we would have a more diverse array of education. There would be more accountability, flexibility, and no monopoly on information dissemination. If someone thinks our public schools are failing and serves itself instead of the public why wouldn't they support a policy that would break all that up but giving more power to tax payers and less to school districts?
That's just the way history is. The left progresses society, the right fights civilization every step of the way. I'm sure that way back, people were arguing about evil liberal farming going against the traditional hunter-gatherer lifestyle. Before then, the argument was about whether or not biggest rock is best rock.

The point of the Department of Education is to bring level-headed standards to education. That means not teaching that Jesus rode dinosaurs, which would happen with your voucher system.
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Old 12-18-2016, 07:42 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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That's just the way history is. The left progresses society, the right fights civilization every step of the way. I'm sure that way back, people were arguing about evil liberal farming going against the traditional hunter-gatherer lifestyle. Before then, the argument was about whether or not biggest rock is best rock.

The point of the Department of Education is to bring level-headed standards to education. That means not teaching that Jesus rode dinosaurs, which would happen with your voucher system.
But this seems completely brainwashed on your part to me. It is so obviously contrived and self-serving it is unbelievable. How do you even define liberal and conservative? It just oversimplifies the entire world and is a copout for never having to defend or reflect on one's idea because they accepted the fact that history is on their side and reduced all their detractors to neanderthal. If you don't already accept it it doesn't create a compelling reason to buy into it. This is especially true now when the Democrats represented the status quo more than anything.

Well the main function of the Department of Education now is to give money to colleges and punish people who don't let trans people in women's locker rooms and bathrooms. Besides the fact that people will call me dumb why wouldn't I want to abolish this and defund other instruments of government used for partisan purposes? Why not neuter all these things? Over time there will be less people that loosely define conservative or right-wing as every bad thing ever and liberal or left-wing with every good thing ever because there won't be a monopoly on information dissemination. We can also save money we can spend on defense or to lower taxes. I hope the Democrats can change by accepting more blue dog Democrats back but to me it seems like people don't even see the world the same way. There can't really be a compromise.
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Old 12-18-2016, 07:45 PM
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You realize of course that peer review papers say conservative people are more in tune and aware of threats, death, ect thanks to "negative bias", which leads to wanting easy to use devices, familiarity, order, strong defense, ect?

Literally the success of humanity is due to conservative mindset.
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  #310  
Old 12-18-2016, 07:51 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
But this seems completely brainwashed on your part to me. It is so obviously contrived and self-serving it is unbelievable. How do you even define liberal and conservative? It just oversimplifies the entire world and is a copout for never having to defend or reflect on one's idea because they accepted the fact that history is on their side and reduced all their detractors to neanderthal. If you don't already accept it it doesn't create a compelling reason to buy into it. This is especially true now when the Democrats represented the status quo more than anything.
Progressives want to progress society. Conservatives want to conserve the status quo (or regress to the way things used to be). That's really just the way the world works.

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Well the main function of the Department of Education now is to give money to colleges and punish people who don't let trans people in women's locker rooms and bathrooms. Besides the fact that people will call me dumb why wouldn't I want to abolish this and defund other instruments of government used for partisan purposes? Why not neuter all these things? Over time there will be less people that loosely define conservative or right-wing as every bad thing ever and liberal or left-wing with every good thing ever because there won't be a monopoly on information dissemination. We can also save money we can spend on defense or to lower taxes. I hope the Democrats can change by accepting more blue dog Democrats back but to me it seems like people don't even see the world the same way. There can't really be a compromise.
I believe they'll also punish schools that don't allow blacks to use the same facilities as whites.

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You realize of course that peer review papers say conservative people are more in tune and aware of threats, death, ect thanks to "negative bias", which leads to wanting easy to use devices, familiarity, order, strong defense, ect?

Literally the success of humanity is due to conservative mindset.
Yes, we know conservatives live in and base their decisions on fear. That's why their influence on politics is usually best kept to a minimum.
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  #311  
Old 12-18-2016, 07:53 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Most of my history classes in K-12 were fairly balanced. They didn't shy away from the bad things that the US did, but neither did they obsess over them or ignore the good things.

I did have one very right-wing (and very good) military history teacher, but he didn't usually discuss politics openly (except for a few times where he let it slip).

The other teachers I would generally describe as moderate left-of-center. I had one very far left English teacher, but I liked him and we had some good debates in the class.
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  #312  
Old 12-18-2016, 08:02 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Progressives want to progress society. Conservatives want to conserve the status quo (or regress to the way things used to be). That's really just the way the world works.
No it isn't.

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I believe they'll also punish schools that don't allow blacks to use the same facilities as whites.
Considering the Department of Education didn't exist until after desegregation I don't think that it is necessary for that.
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Yes, we know conservatives live in and base their decisions on fear. That's why their influence on politics is usually best kept to a minimum.
The Republicans control most levels of government.

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Most of my history classes in K-12 were fairly balanced. They didn't shy away from the bad things that the US did, but neither did they obsess over them or ignore the good things.

I did have one very right-wing (and very good) military history teacher, but he didn't usually discuss politics openly (except for a few times where he let it slip).

The other teachers I would generally describe as moderate left-of-center. I had one very far left English teacher, but I liked him and we had some good debates in the class.
I had teachers that didn't care about students or teaching. They would ignore everything that happened in class and it was like Lord of the Flies. Many teachers just played movies all day and gave out tests. Sometimes teachers would even get involved in rumor spreading about their students. Teachers are only human and many people seem to forget that when they put what they are and what they say on a pedestal.
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Old 12-18-2016, 08:08 PM
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No it isn't.


Considering the Department of Education didn't exist until after desegregation I don't think that it is necessary for that.


The Republicans control most levels of government.



I had teachers that didn't care about students or teaching. They would ignore everything that happened in class and it was like Lord of the Flies. Many teachers just played movies all day and gave out tests. Sometimes teachers would even get involved in rumor spreading about their students. Teachers are only human and many people seem to forget that when they put what they are and what they say on a pedestal.
I had a few teachers like that, but not many.
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  #314  
Old 12-18-2016, 08:21 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I had a few teachers like that, but not many.
There is certainly enough teachers like that.
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Old 12-18-2016, 08:32 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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No it isn't.


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Considering the Department of Education didn't exist until after desegregation I don't think that it is necessary for that.
The idea remains the same.

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The Republicans control most levels of government.
Depends on the area, but there are plenty of people like Kim Davis around.
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Old 12-18-2016, 09:06 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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What about Trump directed education and research? Will that have any validity? What makes the current administration's government directed schooling and research anymore objective than the next ones? Is it not just a tool of whoever is in power?
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Old 12-18-2016, 09:09 PM
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What about Trump directed education and research? Will that have any validity? What makes the current administration's government directed schooling and research anymore objective than the next ones? Is it not just a tool of whoever is in power?
Do you think it can be anything else?
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Old 12-18-2016, 09:40 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Do you think it can be anything else?
If it is decentralized and held accountable. The $73 billion dollars we spend on the Department of Education would be a sizable dent in our deficit if abolished. Most of it is used to influence public schools or give money to colleges without congressional approval which gives an elite group of people a lot of strings to pull(which is the same way with a lot of our executive level departments.)

https://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/b.../edhistory.pdf

I think it can only be informative and not demonstrative. That is really the only way for it to work because it isn't falsifiable. If it becomes the later it becomes propaganda which is fine from private sources but not public ones because it is immoral to coerce people fund speech they don't agree with. It will just become hilariously ironic if Trump directs research to speak favorably of him or his ideas and see how people justify attacking that. Using the government to advance a partisan political cause should be shameful but it has become common place because the government is its own special interest group. That is what has corrupted so much of our federal research.
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Old 12-18-2016, 09:46 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
If it is decentralized and held accountable. The $73 billion dollars we spend on the Department of Education would be a sizable dent in our deficit if abolished. Most of it is used to influence public schools or give money to colleges without congressional approval which gives an elite group of people a lot of strings to pull(which is the same way with a lot of our executive level departments.)

https://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/b.../edhistory.pdf

I think it can only be informative and not demonstrative. That is really the only way for it to work because it isn't falsifiable. If it becomes the later it becomes propaganda which is fine from private sources but not public ones because it is immoral to coerce people fund speech they don't agree with. It will just become hilariously ironic if Trump directs research to speak favorably of him or his ideas and see how people justify attacking that. Using the government to advance a partisan political cause should be shameful but it has become common place because the government is its own special interest group. That is what has corrupted so much of our federal research.
Ah, okay. I misunderstood you. When you said this:

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Originally Posted by PajamaSalad View Post
What about Trump directed education and research? Will that have any validity? What makes the current administration's government directed schooling and research anymore objective than the next ones? Is it not just a tool of whoever is in power?
I thought you meant that a Trump-directed education would be preferable.

I don't mind decentralizing as long as there's some kind of accreditation process. There are a lot of shysters out there who'd just offer some kind of education that's culturally appealing (like some of the bullshit New Age schools). You can't totally stamp them out, but an accreditation process would make it harder for them to operate.

No idea how you'd set up a good accreditation process, though.
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Old 12-18-2016, 09:53 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Yes, we know conservatives live in and base their decisions on fear. That's why their influence on politics is usually best kept to a minimum
Clearly, liberals are the voice of reason.
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Old 12-18-2016, 10:05 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Clearly, liberals are the voice of reason.
Nice random person. Meanwhile, on an internet show Pedophile Donnie himself approves of highly and is scheduled to make another appearance on soon,

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Old 12-18-2016, 10:17 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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Ah, okay. I misunderstood you. When you said this:

I thought you meant that a Trump-directed education would be preferable.

I don't mind decentralizing as long as there's some kind of accreditation process. There are a lot of shysters out there who'd just offer some kind of education that's culturally appealing (like some of the bullshit New Age schools). You can't totally stamp them out, but an accreditation process would make it harder for them to operate.

No idea how you'd set up a good accreditation process, though.
US college accreditation is regional which is real dumb. I would have better luck transferring credits from a Midwestern community college than I would an East Coast state college. In the case of the later I have to appeal the credit and argue why I would deserve the credit. You can actually get an Electrical Engineering degree online at some colleges but I can't get the same level of snobbery like at a place like Purdue.

If someone wants to spend their own money on new age stuff I don't care. Most people won't. The manufacturing industry in the Midwest lends itself to more engineering and technical type jobs and I think our schools should lean that way. The USAF accomplishes so much technologically, logistically, and administratively with trades schools combined with self-study and on the job training. I think it is a much more balanced system when it comes to training people. The Indiana state government would devote more resources to STEM and trade skills if the federal government allowed it to but we are forced to fund all kinds of stupid stuff that only benefits few people.
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