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Old 06-19-2011, 09:54 PM
Roflpotamus Roflpotamus is offline

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Default Tides of Darkness the Novel

Very often, Tides of Darkness (the novel) is referenced as official lore and I feel that this is a sad state.

First, in Tides of Darkness (the novel) the Horde only won ONE battle. Said battle was in Quel'Thalas and the description of the destruction of Quel'Thalas was limited to some trees being burnt. The razing of the majority of the forest and the sweeping destruction the Death Knights brought forth were left out.

Second, the movement of armies and individuals in the book make no sense. The Alterac mountain chain extends and moves around as is convenient, the Orcs invade the Capitol City via a huge bridge over water from the Alterac passes, etc.

Third, the tactics in this book are completely off-key. The author described Alliance ships as being slower than the Orcish ones but they enjoyed more maneuverability as a product of their sails. This makes no sense. Boats powered by rowers have VASTLY superior maneuverability and greater bursts of speed as well, however, sail boats are superior for prolonged amounts of speed and for travel beyond hugging the coast.

All-in-all, the book was atrocious and it really should not be considered canon. Again, the Horde did not win a single battle, movements were tossed in from geographically random locations that made no sense, and the sense of tactics and strategy were completely off.


If people are happy referencing that Orgrim actually beat Lothar in a battle because of the book, they should also be content with the knowledge that Hillsbrad, Stromgarde, Tyr's Hand, Stratholme, Quel'Thalas, and Dalaran never fell to the Horde.

In fact, nothing fell to the Horde in the Second War, not a single thing.
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Old 06-19-2011, 10:17 PM
HalfElfDragon HalfElfDragon is offline

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I quite enjoyed reading Tides of Darkness myself. I think the main problem was that the Second War was too large to be fit in a three hundred something page novel. It either should've been made longer to accommodate all the events of the War or shouldn't have summarized the entire war.

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All-in-all, the book was atrocious and it really should not be considered canon.
If only being bad would take something out of continuity. Then we could get rid of Stormrage.
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Old 06-19-2011, 10:25 PM
Gurtogg_Bloodboil Gurtogg_Bloodboil is offline

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Originally Posted by Roflpotamus View Post
Very often, Tides of Darkness (the novel) is referenced as official lore and I feel that this is a sad state.
While I agree with you that it made the war feel smaller and faster, your displeasure does not make it not canon. Sorry.

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In fact, nothing fell to the Horde in the Second War, not a single thing.
They took all of Khaz Modan (except inside Ironforge). In addition, all of Stormwind and the surrounding areas (though beating Stormwind was the conclusion of the First War). They burned 1/3 of Quel’thalas, and they also took Tol Barad. Alterac surrendered to them, and they were extremely close to taking Capital City as well.

Plus, the narrative mostly followed around Turalyon. He wasn’t everywhere. It was mostly a character driven rather story rather than a history documenting every engagement.

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If only being bad would take something out of continuity. Then we could get rid of Stormrage.
Night of the Dragon goes first!
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Old 06-19-2011, 10:30 PM
HalfElfDragon HalfElfDragon is offline

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Night of the Dragon goes first!
Night of the Dragon was at times so bad it was good. I am disappointed that we haven't seen the raptor army again.
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Old 06-19-2011, 10:32 PM
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Night of the Dragon was at times so bad it was good. I am disappointed that we haven't seen the raptor army again.
They are in Stormrage too. Why they are not in Twilight Highlands is beyond me.
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Old 06-19-2011, 10:36 PM
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Part of me thinks that "Rhonin's Raptors" are Dalaran's answer to the Seventh Legion: A cadre of super intelligent raptors who have learned the finer points of arcane spellcasting and are teleported into hotspots.

Okay I'm really getting a fanfic idea now.
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Old 06-19-2011, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Gurtogg_Bloodboil View Post
They took all of Khaz Modan (except inside Ironforge).
They also presumably failed to breach Gnomeregan (I actually don't recall if the Horde was ever said to have attacked the place directly, while we know it hammered ineffectually at Ironforge's gates the whole time it occupied Khaz Modan).
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Old 06-19-2011, 10:37 PM
Gurtogg_Bloodboil Gurtogg_Bloodboil is offline

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Night of the Dragon was at times so bad it was good. I am disappointed that we haven't seen the raptor army again.
I guess that's true. But Iridi... terrible character or most terrible character?

Though Stormrage had Malfurion, who had become a tree, desperately seeking out his greatest weakness… an orc with an axe, to… chop him down. And then the ultimate showdown is against… another tree. Yeah, it was bad too.
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Old 06-19-2011, 10:41 PM
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Though Stormrage had Malfurion, who had become a tree, desperately seeking out his greatest weakness… an orc with an axe, to… chop him down. And then the ultimate showdown is against… another tree. Yeah, it was bad too.
Where was Xavius' physical tree-form anyway? Azshara? Off the coast of Azshara? The Emerald Dream's intact version of off the coast of Azshara? Somewhere near the the Rift of Aln? Nowhere? Somewhere?
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It'd be nice if they actually finally gave us things they cut or under utilized 10 years ago.
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Old 06-19-2011, 10:50 PM
Gurtogg_Bloodboil Gurtogg_Bloodboil is offline

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Originally Posted by Revenant View Post
Where was Xavius' physical tree-form anyway? Azshara? Off the coast of Azshara? The Emerald Dream's intact version of off the coast of Azshara? Somewhere near the the Rift of Aln? Nowhere? Somewhere?
I think the explanation was that it was in Azshara but nobody could see it because it was hiding in the Emerald Dream's intact version of Azshara which was somehwere near the Rift of Aln where he was drawing his evil power from... yeah.
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Old 06-19-2011, 11:04 PM
Roflpotamus Roflpotamus is offline

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Originally Posted by Gurtogg_Bloodboil View Post
While I agree with you that it made the war feel smaller and faster, your displeasure does not make it not canon. Sorry.

They took all of Khaz Modan (except inside Ironforge). In addition, all of Stormwind and the surrounding areas (though beating Stormwind was the conclusion of the First War). They burned 1/3 of Quel’thalas, and they also took Tol Barad. Alterac surrendered to them, and they were extremely close to taking Capital City as well.

Plus, the narrative mostly followed around Turalyon. He wasn’t everywhere. It was mostly a character driven rather story rather than a history documenting every engagement.
Are you sure you've read the book?

The Horde did not win a single battle in it short of the rather weak 'victory' in Quel'Thalas.

Also, the book follows Orgrim just as much as it does Turalyon and there are no other victories. Tol Barad was never conquered, Stromgarde never fell, the conquering of Khaz Modan was structured as though it fell swiftly in between the First and Second Wars and not during the Second one.


Before you criticize, I think you should read the subject matter.

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Old 06-19-2011, 11:14 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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I think the explanation was that it was in Azshara but nobody could see it because it was hiding in the Emerald Dream's intact version of Azshara which was somehwere near the Rift of Aln where he was drawing his evil power from... yeah.
Nah, it was just in the Azshara battleground.

So yeah, it's wherever that place went...
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Old 06-19-2011, 11:21 PM
HalfElfDragon HalfElfDragon is offline

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They are in Stormrage too.
I guess Knaak knows when he has a good idea. Unfortunately, he seems to think that about his bad ideas too.
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Old 06-19-2011, 11:26 PM
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Nah, it was just in the Azshara battleground.

So yeah, it's wherever that place went...
I've actually seen it, and it's pretty awesome looking.

Bigger than AV.
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Old 06-20-2011, 12:03 AM
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I quite enjoyed reading Tides of Darkness myself. I think the main problem was that the Second War was too large to be fit in a three hundred something page novel. It either should've been made longer to accommodate all the events of the War or shouldn't have summarized the entire war.
Quenta Silmarillion is less, yet it accounts for the creation of Silmarils, the flight of the Noldori, as well as the wars of Beleriand, including some of the largest and bloodiest battles of modern high fantasy. Thus, a recap of the war works if you write it correctly, even when the focus is on individual characters.

Want my version?

You start off with Lothar and Doomhammer to get a recap of what state the Alliance and the Horde are in. Then you open the war with orcish invasion through Thandol Span (ground offensive, east flank) and Hillsbrad (naval offensive, west flank). Stromgarde is forced to fall back, Hillsbrad is swarming with orcs, planning to attack Capital City itself. Dalaran is practically destroyed as the green mass moves in for the kill. The eastern offensive attacks through Hinterlands, but in order to secure alliance with Forest Trolls has to attack Quel'Thalas as well. While what's Ghostlands today is heavily damaged by Horde armies and the Runestone shield itself is besieged, this delays the eastern flank just enough for the Alliance to mount a successful defense of Tirisfal, Silverpine and Darrowmere areas, mounting a mighty counteroffensive against the Capital City siege. Combined with Gul'dan's betrayal, Gilneas' offensive from the southwest and Kul'Tiras' harassing of orcish supply lines, the orcish western front finally collapses and leaves the eastern front open from north, west and endangered in the south. Orgrim is forced to retreat beyond Thandol Span or risk losing the whole army.

With north secure, Alliance mounts a daring naval invasion of the south. That's where dwarves and gnomes come in, finally mustering the strength to break out of Dun Morogh and cut the supply lines of the retreating army to the north. Without the reinforcements, Orgrim has to fight the Alliance with whatever he has available at Blackrock. Obviously, it's not enough and the Spire falls after one of the bloodiest battles of the Second War. The remnants of the orcish northern invasion force, having nowhere to retreat to, mount the remaining ships and move south to Black Morass in order to regroup, reinforce and attack again. Enter the final stage, the liberation of (ruins of :p) Stormwind and the siege of Dark Portal.

Add a few character stories in there, details of human knights charging ogres, empowered by paladin Light, Gul'dan plotting behind Orgrim's back and an elf head or three on a wooden stick, with trolls dancing around them and you have yourself the novel about a Second War
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Old 06-20-2011, 12:32 AM
Gurtogg_Bloodboil Gurtogg_Bloodboil is offline

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Originally Posted by Roflpotamus View Post
Are you sure you've read the book?

The Horde did not win a single battle in it short of the rather weak 'victory' in Quel'Thalas.

Also, the book follows Orgrim just as much as it does Turalyon and there are no other victories. Tol Barad was never conquered, Stromgarde never fell, the conquering of Khaz Modan was structured as though it fell swiftly in between the First and Second Wars and not during the Second one.

Before you criticize, I think you should read the subject matter.
I’ve read it champ. As I already said, Turalyon wasn’t at every engagement. That means Doomhammer wasn’t either. Further, the book starts with Orgrim in Stromwind. That means they conquered Khaz Modan during the course of the book. Want a quote?

“We march north,” Doomhammer told his people. “Across this land and into Khaz Modan, the home of the dwarves.”

Did the conquest of Khaz Modan get covered thoroughly enough? Certainly not. But it happened, and falling swiftly is still falling.

And the book specifically says that a full third of Eversong forest was burned down by the Horde. They also corrupted their sacred runestone. That level of destruction is significant, whether you want to belittle it or not.

The Horde also sank the entire 3rd Fleet of Kul Tiras and killed Derek Proudmoore.

The Horde also defeated the Alliance to rescue Zul’jin and his trolls, who were being held captive.

The Horde succeeded in capturing Alexstrazsa and enslaving the red dragons.

Further, it was very clear that the Horde was about to take Capital City. That would have won them the entire war, and they make a point of this specifically. If Orgrim didn’t have to pull out to go after the Twilight’s Hammer & Stormreavers, he’d have won. And even though it was orc-on-orc, Doomhammer’s forces won that battle too.

The book also mentions that the Horde defeated the Dark Iron Dwarves that occupied BRM so they could claim it as their own.

Alterac surrendered to the Horde. That’s a victory without even fighting.

Nobody ever mentioned Stromgarde falling, as we all know that fell after the war.

Everyone already agrees the book was too short and deserved at least as much space, or much more, than War of the Ancients. But before you start complaining on these forums, maybe you should control your hyperbole, because its clearly not true that the Horde “didn’t win a single battle!” I mean is this yet another fanboy who comes here just to complain about their faction not being depicted as sufficiently awesome? At least he’s a horde guy this time; I was getting fed up with the Alliance.
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Old 06-20-2011, 12:45 AM
HalfElfDragon HalfElfDragon is offline

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Originally Posted by tufy View Post
Quenta Silmarillion is less, yet it accounts for the creation of Silmarils, the flight of the Noldori, as well as the wars of Beleriand, including some of the largest and bloodiest battles of modern high fantasy. Thus, a recap of the war works if you write it correctly, even when the focus is on individual characters.
I tend to hold the writers of licensed fiction to a lesser standard than J.R.R. Tolkein.
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Old 06-20-2011, 01:36 AM
Roflpotamus Roflpotamus is offline

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I’ve read it champ. As I already said, Turalyon wasn’t at every engagement. That means Doomhammer wasn’t either. Further, the book starts with Orgrim in Stromwind. That means they conquered Khaz Modan during the course of the book. Want a quote?

“We march north,” Doomhammer told his people. “Across this land and into Khaz Modan, the home of the dwarves.”

Did the conquest of Khaz Modan get covered thoroughly enough? Certainly not. But it happened, and falling swiftly is still falling.
They fell. The end.

Quote:
And the book specifically says that a full third of Eversong forest was burned down by the Horde. They also corrupted their sacred runestone. That level of destruction is significant, whether you want to belittle it or not.
The Deathknight involvement of scarring the land with the dead was completely left out as well.

Quote:
The Horde also sank the entire 3rd Fleet of Kul Tiras and killed Derek Proudmoore.
After the near entirety of the Orcish fleet was sunk.

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The Horde also defeated the Alliance to rescue Zul’jin and his trolls, who were being held captive.
What, about 12 Alliance troops were killed?

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The Horde succeeded in capturing Alexstrazsa and enslaving the red dragons.
How is this a Horde victory of the Second War? Don't get me wrong, had they not included this as well I'd be positively frothing but this is still lol when compared to how pathetic the Horde was made out to be in the book.

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Further, it was very clear that the Horde was about to take Capital City. That would have won them the entire war, and they make a point of this specifically. If Orgrim didn’t have to pull out to go after the Twilight’s Hammer & Stormreavers, he’d have won. And even though it was orc-on-orc, Doomhammer’s forces won that battle too.
Actually, Terenas specifically said that if the Capital fell that the Alliance would still have a damned good chance at defeating the Horde. The Alliance never suffered large losses in fact short of the Quel'Thalas campaign, but the description of those losses was rather trivial when compared to how often, "The Orcs were caught on two sides and when they looked one way were being cut down from the other".

The Horde's tactics for assaulting the Capital's huge stone walls? Building a HUGE bridge over water and throwing Orcs at the walls again and again.

Some author should have done at least a modicum of research on tactics ffs.

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The book also mentions that the Horde defeated the Dark Iron Dwarves that occupied BRM so they could claim it as their own.
I don't have the book on me right now, but it literally had one line saying that they kicked out a small group of Dwarves. That was that, it wasn't a huge fight or anything it was merely, "oh hey some dudes, out you go".

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Alterac surrendered to the Horde. That’s a victory without even fighting.
The riots, the assassination attempts, etc. of Alterac were completely omitted as well.

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Nobody ever mentioned Stromgarde falling, as we all know that fell after the war.
You do know that Stromgarde was nearly destroyed in the official lore of WC2, right?

Quote:
Everyone already agrees the book was too short and deserved at least as much space, or much more, than War of the Ancients. But before you start complaining on these forums, maybe you should control your hyperbole, because its clearly not true that the Horde “didn’t win a single battle!” I mean is this yet another fanboy who comes here just to complain about their faction not being depicted as sufficiently awesome? At least he’s a horde guy this time; I was getting fed up with the Alliance.
Hey kiddo, I'm bitching that the book was horrible, the lore inconsistent, and the Horde was presented as a HUGE THREAT whenever they were mentioned even though they only won one single battle in the whole book (against the Alliance since you think that kicking out a small group of Dwarves is a battle).



These are events that are canon yet were largely omitted in the book:

The high elves joined the Alliance following an attack on their archers passing through Tarren Mill (human campaign).
Dalaran was razed by the Horde (orc campaign).
Lothar is betrayed, ambushed and killed by the Horde when invited to Blackrock Spire for a diplomatic parley. Others say Lothar died in single combat against Doomhammer during the assault on Blackrock Spire. Although, Alliance Player's Guide 2006, still mentions that ambush still occurred and hints that foul play was involved, and the single combat wasn't as honorable as perceived (more than one against him).[44] Horde Player's Guide explains further that witnesses and historians give mixed accounts which include elements of both versions of the event.[45]
After having been defeated by Doomhammer's forces at the Tomb of Sargeras in Warcraft II (orc campaign), Gul'dan is attacked by demons after he opens the Tomb (as forshadowed during a cutscene at the beginning of the act).[1] In The Frozen Throne, it further shows that he was killed by the demons he unwittingly set free while searching the tomb.
Quel'Thalas razed by the Horde (orc campaign). While it did not completely fall, much of Quel'Thalas was destroyed by dragons during the second war (and ravaged by the undead in the third), forming the Blackened Woods (later known by is alternate nickname, Ghostlands).[46]
Dun Algaz razed by the Alliance (Human campaign). Hinted at in Lands of Conflict that it was important in the Second War and left a derelict after.[47]
Grim Batol razed by the Alliance. While it did not completely fall, Milan's forces met some success on the surface.[48]
Stromgarde razed by the Horde. While it did not completely fall much of Stromgarde was damaged by the Horde under Urok Scratcher's commander.[49]
Lordaeron razed by the Horde. The Horde destroyed much of Loraderon's outer defenses and structures,[citation needed] but the city did not fall to the Horde.

Last edited by Roflpotamus; 06-20-2011 at 01:55 AM..
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Old 06-20-2011, 02:35 AM
Cpt. Brightgrove Cpt. Brightgrove is offline

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And Rhonin's bunch of superheroes should be erased from WotA.
And WotLK's war with the Scourge shouldn't be such a joke either.
And Cataclysm should be rewritten.
And, and.
While the very idea of fans manipulating Blizzard's creative consciousness via forum theurgy sounds attractive, we can only speculate: it won't change what's canon. Accept, secede or challenge Metzen (i.e. that scapegoat of collective anger) to a manly fist-fight.
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Old 06-20-2011, 03:57 AM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

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The book isn't the definitive, complete account of the Second War, just a look at some things that happened in it. Except for the tactics screwup.
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Old 06-20-2011, 05:53 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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It doesn't have very battle.

Lothar and Turalyon weren't the -only- commanders, neither was orgrim.
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Old 06-20-2011, 06:21 AM
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What? Tides of Darkness was great!
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Old 06-20-2011, 07:04 AM
Gurtogg_Bloodboil Gurtogg_Bloodboil is offline

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Originally Posted by Roflpotamus View Post
They fell. The end.
Therefore your statement “In fact, nothing fell to the Horde in the Second War, not a single thing” is wrong by your own admission.

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The Deathknight involvement of scarring the land with the dead was completely left out as well.
Doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

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Originally Posted by Roflpotamus View Post
After the near entirety of the Orcish fleet was sunk.
They still won that particular engagement. Therefore your statement “The Horde did not win a single battle” is wrong.

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What, about 12 Alliance troops were killed?
It didn’t say specifically, but I would imagine it takes more than 12 troops to hold Zul’jin himself along with a considerable number of other trolls captives. Regardless of how many alliance troops died however, the Horde won that battle. Therefore your statement “The Horde did not win a single battle” is wrong.

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How is this a Horde victory of the Second War? Don't get me wrong, had they not included this as well I'd be positively frothing but this is still lol when compared to how pathetic the Horde was made out to be in the book.
Because it is a huge accomplishment that took a hostile force and subjugated them? An acquisition over a foreign power that occurred during wartime expansion?

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Actually, Terenas specifically said that if the Capital fell that the Alliance would still have a damned good chance at defeating the Horde. The Alliance never suffered large losses in fact short of the Quel'Thalas campaign, but the description of those losses was rather trivial when compared to how often, "The Orcs were caught on two sides and when they looked one way were being cut down from the other".

The Horde's tactics for assaulting the Capital's huge stone walls? Building a HUGE bridge over water and throwing Orcs at the walls again and again.

Some author should have done at least a modicum of research on tactics ffs
“With this [Capital City] and the elven forest as bases they could spread across the rest of the continent rapidly, driving the humans back to the shores and finally into the sea. And then the land would belong to the Horde.”

“Another day at most and the city would have been his! Now that chance was gone. His odds of winning this war were slim at best.”

Terenas was reserved the Capital would fall until he got unexpected assistance, and all Doomhammer’s plans hinged on taking it. When Doomhammer did what he did, he basically lost the war for the Horde. He mentions how nobody understood why he did it, and Kilrogg had to assure him it was the right thing to do. That was the tipping point.

Doomhammer also noted that his tactics would have been to use the ogres to breach the walls, had not Gul’dan stolen them away. He was expecting them, and when they didn’t show up it screwed him over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roflpotamus View Post
I don't have the book on me right now, but it literally had one line saying that they kicked out a small group of Dwarves. That was that, it wasn't a huge fight or anything it was merely, "oh hey some dudes, out you go".
Regardless of how huge the fight was, the Horde won that battle. Therefore your statement “The Horde did not win a single battle” is wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roflpotamus View Post
Hey kiddo, I'm bitching that the book was horrible, the lore inconsistent, and the Horde was presented as a HUGE THREAT whenever they were mentioned even though they only won one single battle in the whole book (against the Alliance since you think that kicking out a small group of Dwarves is a battle).

These are events that are canon yet were largely omitted in the book:

The high elves joined the Alliance following an attack on their archers passing through Tarren Mill (human campaign).
Dalaran was razed by the Horde (orc campaign).
Lothar is betrayed, ambushed and killed by the Horde when invited to Blackrock Spire for a diplomatic parley. Others say Lothar died in single combat against Doomhammer during the assault on Blackrock Spire. Although, Alliance Player's Guide 2006, still mentions that ambush still occurred and hints that foul play was involved, and the single combat wasn't as honorable as perceived (more than one against him).[44] Horde Player's Guide explains further that witnesses and historians give mixed accounts which include elements of both versions of the event.[45]
After having been defeated by Doomhammer's forces at the Tomb of Sargeras in Warcraft II (orc campaign), Gul'dan is attacked by demons after he opens the Tomb (as forshadowed during a cutscene at the beginning of the act).[1] In The Frozen Throne, it further shows that he was killed by the demons he unwittingly set free while searching the tomb.
Quel'Thalas razed by the Horde (orc campaign). While it did not completely fall, much of Quel'Thalas was destroyed by dragons during the second war (and ravaged by the undead in the third), forming the Blackened Woods (later known by is alternate nickname, Ghostlands).[46]
Dun Algaz razed by the Alliance (Human campaign). Hinted at in Lands of Conflict that it was important in the Second War and left a derelict after.[47]
Grim Batol razed by the Alliance. While it did not completely fall, Milan's forces met some success on the surface.[48]
Stromgarde razed by the Horde. While it did not completely fall much of Stromgarde was damaged by the Horde under Urok Scratcher's commander.[49]
Lordaeron razed by the Horde. The Horde destroyed much of Loraderon's outer defenses and structures,[citation needed] but the city did not fall to the Horde.
Yeah, I guess an invading army of countless monsters really shouldn’t have been considered a huge threat…

And also, again, because events that you copied from wowpedia weren't written about in the book, it doesn’t mean they didn’t happen.

Further, the campaigns in warcraft II were never actual canon, since each campaign had their side winning. It would be impossible for both to be accurate, and any accurate details about what happened in both warcraft 1 and 2 were only revealed when the next game or expansion came out. We saw the burning of Quel’thalas and siege of Lordaeron, but they couldn’t have happened the way the orc campaign in warcraft 2 said because that would have ended with the orcs winning.

The ambush of Lothar was retconned long before this book. The RPG you quoted even accounts for that and tries to hand-wave the retcon away by saying there were conflicting reports.

Gul’dan WAS attacked by demons inside the tomb in the book. They even retold the events of the tomb as depicted in WCIII. “Demons. But like none he had seen before. Gul’dan thought he had faced terrible creatures in the past, but these made all others seem mere shadows, harmless and easily dispelled.” Then even included lines verbatim from the Warcraft III...
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  #24  
Old 06-20-2011, 01:51 PM
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ToD was overall, decent, not bad but also not amazing. I totally agree that they should make a trilogy rather than just 1 novel, it seems too rushed.
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  #25  
Old 06-20-2011, 02:22 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Part of me thinks that "Rhonin's Raptors" are Dalaran's answer to the Seventh Legion: A cadre of super intelligent raptors who have learned the finer points of arcane spellcasting and are teleported into hotspots.

Okay I'm really getting a fanfic idea now.
As much as I fucking love velociraptors my enthusiasm for reading that damn book is still pretty low.
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