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Old 02-12-2013, 12:41 PM
Shaman Shaman is offline

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Darkmoon Card: Maelstrom Feminism

So let's talk about feminism!

I'm not sure if this subject has ever really been discussed in-detail so I figured I would start a thread and see where the thread goes. To begin the conversation I'll just make a small list of the main different strands of feminist thought that are discussed in-case you're entirely familiar with the subject. (Note: I'm copying these nearly word-for-word out of a politics textbook and I've included some extra writers if you want to read up more). I should make the disclaimer that these categories are not mutually-exclusive and there is some overlap occasionally.
Category: Liberal
Key Concepts: Rights, equality
Goals: The same rights and opportunities as for men, with a focus on the public sphere.
Key Writers: (Classic) Mary Wollstonecraft; John Stuart Mill (Recent) Naomi Wolf; Betty Friedan; Natasha Walter

Category: Radical
Key Concepts: Patriarchy, 'the personal is political', sisterhood
Goals: Radical transformation of all spheres of life to liberate women from male power. Replace or displace men as the measure of human worth
Key Writers: Kate Millett; Andrea Dworkin; Catherine MacKinnon; Germaine Greer

Category: Socialist and Marxist
Key Concepts: Class, capitalism, exploitation
Goals: An economically just society in which all women can fulfill their potential.
Key Writers: (Classic) William Thompson; Friedrich Engels; Alexandra Kollontai; Sylvia Pankhurst (Recent) Michelle Barrett, Juliet Mitchell; Shelia Rowbotham; Lynne Segal; Anne Phillips.

Category: Black
Key Concepts: Interactive and multiple oppressions, solidarity, discrimination
Goals: An end to the interconnecting oppressions of gender, 'race' and class.
Key Writers: (Classic) Maria Stewart; Julia Cooper (Recent) Patricia Hill Collins; Angela Davis; Heidi Mirza

Category: Postmodern
Key Concepts: Fragmentation, discourse, deconstruction, differences
Goals: Overcoming binary oppositions. Free-floating, fluid gender identities. However the idea of a final goal is rejected in principle.
Key Writers: Judith Butler; Julia Kristeva; Joan Scott; Denise Riley; Michelle Barrett

What I want from this thread is just a general sense of what everyone thinks about the topic. Do you know any feminists? Do you identify as a feminist and if so why? Or if you don't, why is that? What are your experiences with feminism and feminists? What role do you think feminism should play in politics? Questions like that would be good to discuss.

Last edited by Shaman; 02-12-2013 at 01:21 PM..
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Old 02-12-2013, 12:47 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I probably fall somewhere between Liberal and Radical.

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http://inkytomes.tumblr.com/post/425...-need-feminism
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Old 02-12-2013, 12:47 PM
Jungleluke Jungleluke is offline

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I don't know any feminists, it's also not really needed here in the Netherlands. Both sexes are quite equal, especially my generation and those after that.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:00 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Feminism, in its most basic form, means that you acknowledge that there is an inequality between the genders in society, be it cultural, social, economical or otherwise - and that you think this is something that should be corrected.

Therefore, I call myself a feminist.

If I had to choose a school, I'd say I'm a Liberal feminist (in the true meaning, not the weird, american bastardized form) but I subscribe to Post-Colonial Theory and queer-theory.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:12 PM
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This might come as a surprise but I'm a fan of cyborg theory feminism, so I guess that makes me a postmodern feminist.


Essentially, I disagree with focus on gender and sex as definite physical and psychological positions, and view them as increasingly irrelevant in the coming future, where the physical body is no longer socially important and constructed personalities are becoming the norm. That said, I am critical of those who define themselves BY their sex and/or gender (which includes transsexuals- hence my publicized feuds with Sly and Xil), and since my views are primarily egalitarian one could argue that they don't explicitly fit into "feminist".
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:14 PM
Torch Torch is offline

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More or less in the liberal camp here.

And, as must pretty importantly be noted- yes, in many cases, men and women are equal under the law, or as equal as they can feasably be. That doesn't mean that there aren't still imbalances in the law, certainly more prevalent in some places than others, society, what is considered socially acceptable, both as a target of banter, to illegal activity to be "she was asking for it".

And as for "men have problems too"? Yes, they do. However, a lot of those problems (that aren't simple biology) often stem from unfair expectations placed on both genders both in times gone by and even now- expectations that often involve the man being the awesome guy who gets to do jobs and carve his living out, and the woman who finds the right guy to settle down with and look after kids (True story- one study ended up finding that a large number of girls did poorly at maths simply because they were expecting to find a husband to do the work for them. That's not "oh lol stupid bad wimmenzlol see why they're not doing as well as men", that's "WHAT THE LITERAL FUCK ARE WE TEACHING OUR KIDS ABOUT THEIR LIVES AND EXPECTATIONS?").

It's not "Equally important and valid life paths" if one feels pressured into taking a societally constructed path, and not one where one feels comfortable. Media, parents, teachers, we can't just say "well, women are legally equal, stop complaining", because when you do that, you only make the problem worse for everyone by ignoring that these biases are surrounding us and informing our every decision.

Also, nor do I particularly think there's really much of a a difference between "egalitarian" and "feminist" (if that if you do congratulate yourself for identifying as one but not the other, you're an ass). One's for equality (here for genders), ones for noting that generally a lot of our gender issues have come from assuming that men are superior and women can make babies (sometimes to the point of "Well, they incubate and raise them, even the men give more to producing the child") and are otherwise inferior.
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Last edited by Torch; 02-12-2013 at 01:18 PM..
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:15 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
Feminism, in its most basic form, means that you acknowledge that there is an inequality between the genders in society, be it cultural, social, economical or otherwise - and that you think this is something that should be corrected.
I don't think that's what feminism is. What you described sounds more egalitarianism, but even then, not exactly.

I don't like modern feminism.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:16 PM
Porimlys Porimlys is offline

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I identify as a feminist, and I've made posts explaining why in the past, quite simply though I believe in gender equality. I believe that we are living in a patriarchal society and that it oppresses both genders, though more actively women. I believe in intersectionality, and I think too often a lot of mainstream feminists discuss gender without ever lending any validity to the idea that race, class, orientation or religion are equally important components.

I've had mostly positive experiences with feminisms, though I have grown to find that there are a frustratingly large group of them who are not good at keeping it an equal and open space. A lot of my WoC friends have been turned off from feminism because mainstream western feminism has a tendency to ignore racial issues, and I understand that.

Quote:
I don't think that's what feminism is.
It is. Feminism is about gender equality, but there's nothing wrong with it taking a pro-women stance.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:20 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
I don't think that's what feminism is.
That is what feminism is, however. Anything else that's added to the term is conjecture.
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Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:26 PM
Erthad Erthad is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
That is what feminism is, however. Anything else that's added to the term is conjecture.
That's not the definition I get in the dictionary which is:
Quote:
The advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.
It's inherently something that is pro woman, not pro equality because it doesn't consider the fact that women could be in a better position than men.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:27 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
That's not the definition I get in the dictionary which is:

It's inherently something that is pro woman, not pro equality.
The dictionary is controlled by the patriarchy, man.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:27 PM
Porimlys Porimlys is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
It's inherently something that is pro woman, not pro equality.
I don't see anything in that definition that says it's not pro-equality. Women are not equal in our society, feminism is a movement who's goal (which, by the way, goes far beyond a simple dictionary description) is to alleviate that.

Quite frankly, I believe being pro-woman is good for everyone. By rejecting the ideas of "femininity" and "masculinity" it relieves us of the burden of having to conform to the gender binary or be considered wrong somehow.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
That's not the definition I get in the dictionary which is:

It's inherently something that is pro woman, not pro equality.
Not sure how you got that from the definition, but okay.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:29 PM
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In college many friends became women's studies majors and treated me and our other male friends very differently after a couple of years of study. While I don't appreciate extreme "men are evil" feminism, I appreciate wanting to be treated equally and to desire having the same value. I reject the notion that being treated equal in value and potential means that men and women are not different. Omacron and I would have to disagree then, because I see great value in the differences between men and women, two halves of a whole. I find these roles to be beautiful.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:30 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
It's inherently something that is pro woman, not pro equality because it doesn't consider the fact that women could be in a better position than men.
I have no idea how you are interpreting that to mean anything other than what I said. Equality is not equality if one gender is above the other; no matter which gender that is.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Pratchett
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:31 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Not sure how you got that from the definition, but okay.
Well, it's comparable to the term masculism, I think... which is oddly considered as male feminism by some feminists.

Anyway, I'm okay with feminism but I don't like radicals.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montoya View Post
In college many friends became women's studies majors and treated me and our other male friends very differently after a couple of years of study. While I don't appreciate extreme "men are evil" feminism, I appreciate wanting to be treated equally and to desire having the same value. I reject the notion that being treated equal in value and potential means that men and women are not different. Omacron and I would have to disagree then, because I see great value in the differences between men and women, two halves of a whole. I find these roles to be beautiful.
In a prospective future in which identity, skill and, ultimately, reproduction are divorced from the body, what purpose does maintaining a "female" or "feminine" identity serve, other than nostalgia and aesthetics?
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:32 PM
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I think Women should have equal pay / rights as men.

I'm Canadian though, and I'm pretty sure we have that under our Human Rights act.

However, the psychos that think men should be underneath women socially, or some of the other crazy ideas I've read, they can go straight to hell. Maybe have the female version of a castration, since they seem to imply all men should get one.

Normal people who think women should have equal pay and rights are fine. Fucking psychos (Feminazis) should gtfo.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:33 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I think Women should have equal pay / rights as men.
Agreed.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erthad View Post
That's not the definition I get in the dictionary which is:

It's inherently something that is pro woman, not pro equality.
The dictionary definition pretty specifically says that it is about achieving equality. If it weren't for the fact that women were considered inferior at most things (and not a far more balanced mix of "home" and "intellectual/work"), then we'd call it egalitarianism. As it stands, a lot of men's gender issues revolve around an idea of them being the "stronger, more intelligent" gender, better able to work or make money, or just do non-housekeeping stuff.

Take the whole Austrian military service thing. Totally ass-tarded right? And sexist towards men because only they have to do it, right? But think about it. Why aren't women made to do it? It's not a physical thing, as there's the chance to do community service (and that's still an unfair assumption, given you have strong women and weak men). And considering it's still kept, there's obviously some benefit believed to be taken from it. So it's rather more likely it's a male only thing because women are considered less capable then men, right? (Or at least were, and it's in the hazy state of too bad to expand to women, too good to drop altogether).

And that's the whole thing about feminisim being feminism. It started when it was pretty clearly women who were inferior, and even today, there's still a large number of double standards based from the time of "male superiority". It is still, at heart, egalitarianism, it just cuts to the main loser in gender inequality- women.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:34 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
Well, it's comparable to the term masculism, I think... which is oddly considered as male feminism by some feminists.

Anyway, I'm okay with feminism but I don't like radicals.
Never heard of masculism. I've heard of male studies or masculinity studies, however, but those have been proven defunkt by both feministic theories and mainstream academic research.

Critical masculinity studies do exist, though. I believe that's a genuine field of humanitarian research, but I lack insight into it. I'm familiar with Raewynne Connel, but that's about as far as my knowledge in the field goes.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Pratchett
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:36 PM
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Well, it's comparable to the term masculism, I think... which is oddly considered as male feminism by some feminists.

Anyway, I'm okay with feminism but I don't like radicals.
Radicals are the problem for any movement.

Most feminism is about equality, that's it (and that's how it started). It is a specific kind of equality, and there are other groups working on other kinds of equality.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Crazyterran View Post
I think Women should have equal pay / rights as men.

I'm Canadian though, and I'm pretty sure we have that under our Human Rights act.

However, the psychos that think men should be underneath women socially, or some of the other crazy ideas I've read, they can go straight to hell. Maybe have the female version of a castration, since they seem to imply all men should get one.

Normal people who think women should have equal pay and rights are fine. Fucking psychos (Feminazis) should gtfo.
Agreed. Feminazis are up there with other leftist slime. They are the poison of our society.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:42 PM
Porimlys Porimlys is offline

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Once again Ganishka, your valuable and educated input has roused a ferocious change deep within me. I have seen the error of my ways.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Garotar View Post
Radicals are the problem for any movement.

Most feminism is about equality, that's it (and that's how it started). It is a specific kind of equality, and there are other groups working on other kinds of equality.
What happens when equality is reached? What happens when legitimate grievances have been taken care of? The radicals take things to extremes that no one ask for (see ACLU).
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