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  #26  
Old 12-17-2010, 01:05 AM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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My biggest problem with the heroics is that everyone's so quick to blame their tank or healer. Sorry it's not my fault if you're a dumbass and stand in the fire or refuse to kill the adds like I told you too. I've never seen votekick abused as much as I have in the past week especially by guild groups. It's gotten to the point where if I see it's a group of 3 people from the same guild I just d/c myself since I know that when a wipe happens I will be the one who get's the blame and kicked (the other day I got votekicked out of 5 Stonecores on the first boss due to healers or DPS standing on top of the exploding crystals over and over).
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  #27  
Old 12-17-2010, 01:17 AM
Jigsaw Complex Jigsaw Complex is offline

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I don't have to play a healer when i've been healed by them for 6 years now and have been asking them "what does this do?" for most of those years. I can tell when something wrong is happening. They're doing something wrong when they go oom before the boss is 70/60% and nobody is failing at mechanics.

If you'ld like to share your 2 cents on the matter besides acting like a 'nam vet and pitching me the old "you don't even know, man!" routine, then i would suggest leaving more then a few empty words. I'm not attacking any specific person or group. Hell, i'm not attack anybody. I'm just tired of seeing everybody make the same moronic mistakes over and over.

I've been going at these heroics for a week now. Granted a week isn't that long and all of this is still new to most people; i've seen what wotlk has done to healers and dps. Healers are focused on keeping everybody at max hp all the time; they heal blindly, burn through mana, and bitch when they have none before the fight even really begins. dps don't give a fuck about CCs, kill order, or threat. It's something that needs to be grown out of code quick.

Am i saying all the tanks out there are innocent; hell no. I've seen my friend go through 5 tanks before they make any progress on any dungeon. And even then, the tank can't master something as basic as turning the boss around.

There was a time not too long ago when this game was harder. When you couldn't sleepwalk through most of the content. During this time, healers knew their job was to just keep everybody alive. Dpsers knew their job was to not only kill the boss, but to be aware of their surrounds, respect kill order and cc, target the tank's target, and to be aware of mechanics. Tanks knew their job was to make sure everybody else who was doing their job didn't get knocked the fuck down. Pulled aggro? If you weren't lucky, you died; learn to watch your threat better next time.

Well guess what ladies and gentlemen? That time has come again. We all have to collectively pull our heads our of our asses and do our jobs the way we did them 4 years ago; the way we should have been doing things for the past 2 years.
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  #28  
Old 12-17-2010, 08:28 AM
Shadowsong Shadowsong is offline

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He's got a point, as someone who was planning to go endgame as shadow I see bad healers all too much now, in fact I am now going disc/holy for endgame a week ago because just how bad it was. Healers have had it easy for 2 years. As a disc priest I just bubbled the tank and alt+tabbed for 15 seconds and came back to put a bubble. On boss fights it required my attention but all I had to do was bubble, penance and flash heal (after 4.0, just bubble and smite)

Like healers felt proud for spamming their flash heal over and over, what pride is there in that? All healers now finally have a chance for challenge now, we can actually use our entire arsenal of spells- which when holy can be very fun because you chakra stance gives you a lot of flexibility. The past 2 years were too easy- not casual- too easy, there is a difference.. just saying.

Also its not just healers, the majority of dps players (dps being the majority in the wow player base) have to relearn also. I am not even joking sadly- most dps do not know how to interrupt, do not know how to CC and because of wrath, dps and healers have been softened up. When I walked into my first heroic and we wiped on the first boss- I was excited that there was a challenge. I've been in all heroics- haven't killed all the bosses yet but I've been in most of them in LFD pugs and people really gotta step up to the challenge.

Last edited by Shadowsong; 12-17-2010 at 10:11 AM..
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  #29  
Old 12-18-2010, 03:21 AM
Nindoriel Nindoriel is offline

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I had a hard time getting from 328 to 329 (which is the required number).
I did all the zones, with all the quests, had my reputation as high as it could be without doing dailies in Deepholm or Twilight Highlands for - I don't know how many weeks. I did every dungeon a few times on non-heroic, got a few pieces there, did all of the dungeon quests, got a few pieces there. I had every piece that I could get through quests, the only way I could've upgraded anything would have been to grind rep for weeks, to run dungeons on non-heroic for which you have to wait like 45 minutes as a dps and then you don't know if your piece drops AND if you even get it OR to buy them from the auction house for large amounts of money (no thank you).

So I don't know what pushed my level to 329, it might have been the iLvl 333 pieces that I was saving up to disenchant them or it was some minor upgrade I got somewhere, I don't remember anymore, cause as soon as I got it I queued for random heroics - where by the way I also have to wait for 45 minutes and then get into a dungeon-in-progess group that splits up the second I join. That happened to me 3 times in a row once. Yeah, waiting for hours for nothing - not really my thing. I gave up on heroics for the moment and started leveling some alts here and there.

To your post Josh: What the fuck has archeology to do with anything? You seem to miss the point of this little trick. When you reached 85, you already did a lot of quests and zones and dungeons. Everybody has an average itemLevel of pretty close to 329. That little trick is only supposed to give you the last push so you don't have to do stuff like waiting hours for dungeon groups just to get the last piece you need. I could join my first heroic 2 days after I hit 85. I had an average iLevel of 328 when I got 85. It took me 2 days!!! just for this one point. Yes, people who use this trick really deserve to be called shitholes.
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  #30  
Old 12-18-2010, 05:58 AM
Reyson Reyson is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
I had a hard time getting from 328 to 329 (which is the required number).
I did all the zones, with all the quests, had my reputation as high as it could be without doing dailies in Deepholm or Twilight Highlands for - I don't know how many weeks. I did every dungeon a few times on non-heroic, got a few pieces there, did all of the dungeon quests, got a few pieces there. I had every piece that I could get through quests, the only way I could've upgraded anything would have been to grind rep for weeks, to run dungeons on non-heroic for which you have to wait like 45 minutes as a dps and then you don't know if your piece drops AND if you even get it OR to buy them from the auction house for large amounts of money (no thank you).

So I don't know what pushed my level to 329, it might have been the iLvl 333 pieces that I was saving up to disenchant them or it was some minor upgrade I got somewhere, I don't remember anymore, cause as soon as I got it I queued for random heroics - where by the way I also have to wait for 45 minutes and then get into a dungeon-in-progess group that splits up the second I join. That happened to me 3 times in a row once. Yeah, waiting for hours for nothing - not really my thing. I gave up on heroics for the moment and started leveling some alts here and there.

To your post Josh: What the fuck has archeology to do with anything? You seem to miss the point of this little trick. When you reached 85, you already did a lot of quests and zones and dungeons. Everybody has an average itemLevel of pretty close to 329. That little trick is only supposed to give you the last push so you don't have to do stuff like waiting hours for dungeon groups just to get the last piece you need. I could join my first heroic 2 days after I hit 85. I had an average iLevel of 328 when I got 85. It took me 2 days!!! just for this one point. Yes, people who use this trick really deserve to be called shitholes.
When I hit lvl85, my ilvl was still 302 or something similar as a tank, for some reason quests don't give out tanking gear that much. Even dungeon quests, where 3/4 there's a tank that uses plate gear, I rarely see a tanking item as reward. I did every quest from Vashj'ir to Twilight Highlands to gear up, do loads of normal dungeons, just to be able to replace my Wrathgear for decent Cata blues, get all faction to Honored-Revered and buy up those items, just to get to where I am now, 326 with 1 ICC10 hc item. So I'm sorry that it took you 2 days to get into heroics, I've been 85 for a week and I'm still 3 points away(I have my finals though, so I didn't play that much) and it's bound to take like 3-4 more days for me to get enough Justice points to replace that ICC item with a decent one.
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  #31  
Old 12-18-2010, 12:25 PM
Moomaul the Great Moomaul the Great is offline

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Its not that hard to get 329 guys. I hit 85 the 3rd day of the expansion, jumped on the AH, bought some blues, and was ilevel 329.
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  #32  
Old 12-18-2010, 01:43 PM
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Its not that hard to get 329 guys. I hit 85 the 3rd day of the expansion, jumped on the AH, bought some blues, and was ilevel 329.
Hell, just do what I do: when you do a quest that gives you a reward, always get the item that's worth the most. When I started the expansion, I had just bought 310% flight speed and I had like 300g to my name, and by the time I leveled to 85 I had close to 6k.
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  #33  
Old 12-20-2010, 10:04 AM
Bolvar Bolvar is offline

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Running dungeons for gear is not that difficult, if you have a guild that's worth a damn.

Cataclysm has done wonders for guilds. At least, it has for guilds like mine. We are a small, somewhat casual group that loves getting achievements and running instances together, so we don't sweat the random queue times, at all, and we generally don't get stuck with morons.

Cranking out rep and earning dungeon and Justice Point gear at 85 will be a non-issue - we will just do what we've always done. Except now, there's a clear advantage and reward in place for it.

I was worried about the guild XP nerf, but it's been a non-issue. With just a dozen or so active members, we're capping out daily anyway.
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  #34  
Old 12-20-2010, 11:54 AM
jjstraka jjstraka is offline

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Also, it's fair to keep in mind that this expansion has been out for 13 days. I haven't even set foot in Hyjal yet, I'm still getting my Druid to 80. I'm not the least bit concerned. This patch is gonna last a LONG time, my guess is until June at least. It has three raids, harder heroics, and a heavily-grindy new profession to level. If it takes me till mid-Jan. till I'm comfortable in heroics, so be it.
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  #35  
Old 12-20-2010, 12:22 PM
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Also, it's fair to keep in mind that this expansion has been out for 13 days. I haven't even set foot in Hyjal yet, I'm still getting my Druid to 80. I'm not the least bit concerned. This patch is gonna last a LONG time, my guess is until June at least. It has three raids, harder heroics, and a heavily-grindy new profession to level. If it takes me till mid-Jan. till I'm comfortable in heroics, so be it.
Yep. If I can earn a reasonable amount of JP to get the initial blue gear at a normal pace, I'm content with that. I'm not in a hurry at all to rush into heroics and get my ass kicked.

Solo players who are used to LFD are going to suffer, for sure. The trick is to find a decent guild.
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  #36  
Old 12-20-2010, 12:48 PM
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OPs pretty dumb/mad. I did the exploit because I wanted to cut down on the grind. 8 or 9 ilvls lower won't make the dungeon impossible. It's retarded that there's a required ilvl in the first place.
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  #37  
Old 12-20-2010, 12:51 PM
jjstraka jjstraka is offline

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OPs pretty dumb/mad. I did the exploit because I wanted to cut down on the grind. 8 or 9 ilvls lower won't make the dungeon impossible. It's retarded that there's a required ilvl in the first place.
Well, I disagree with your last statement. It made sense for the ICC 5-man's and it makes sense now. You run regulars to get blues, fill in the rest with the really good quest rewards and rep items, and maybe one or two craftables. All of that should take a week or two tops once reaching 85.
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  #38  
Old 12-20-2010, 01:25 PM
Nindoriel Nindoriel is offline

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Running dungeons for gear is not that difficult, if you have a guild that's worth a damn.

If you have a guild that's "worth a damn" you probably don't need the LFD tool anyway. Maybe for convenience, but not for farming gear, rep and points
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  #39  
Old 12-20-2010, 01:40 PM
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If you have a guild that's "worth a damn" you probably don't need the LFD tool anyway. Maybe for convenience, but not for farming gear, rep and points
Using LFD, even with a full 5-man guild run, makes it a lot easier (no travel time) and awards additional gold/xp/jp.
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Old 12-20-2010, 01:45 PM
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So basically, you just make solo players have to wait longer in the queue so 2 of your guys don't have to travel to the stone? What. A. Dick.
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  #41  
Old 12-20-2010, 03:01 PM
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So basically, you just make solo players have to wait longer in the queue so 2 of your guys don't have to travel to the stone? What. A. Dick.
How does it make solo players wait in queue longer?

Since cata dropped, even before I bought the expansion, I ran with at least 3 other guildies.

We'd always have a tank, and 90% of the time had a healer. The instance servers are never full, so we enter the queue, pick up a lonely solo DPS, and off we go.

How does that hurt the queue time for anyone?
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  #42  
Old 12-20-2010, 03:13 PM
Nindoriel Nindoriel is offline

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Using LFD, even with a full 5-man guild run, makes it a lot easier (no travel time) and awards additional gold/xp/jp.
Yeah like I said, it's for convenience. I forgot about the JP but I even heard from some people who don't even need them anymore.

It's always better to use the tool. But it's only essential when you're not in a guild/good guild.
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  #43  
Old 12-27-2010, 01:00 PM
jjstraka jjstraka is offline

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Now that I actually have some knowledge and experience about gearing up in this expansion, I'm not sure what all the fuss is about with the ilvl. I am at 83 and my ilvl is already at 307. Almost every rep has at least one thing you can buy at honored or revered, and they are at least ilvl 333 if not 346. And everyone should have at least 2 or 3 craftables they can get off the AH if it hast to come to that. And as much as I can tell from the normal dungeons that heroics are going to be complete hell in a PUG (I'm not sure I even want to set foot in Heroic Stonecore with anyone outside my guild) the normal modes are complete zerg fests. Getting the pieces from those should be a piece of cake.
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  #44  
Old 12-28-2010, 11:31 AM
Kalenvor Kalenvor is offline

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It's funny that I should stumble across this thread now, because recently this has become a very big issue in my random heroic groups. It hasn't been so bad with tanks and healers because most of them understand that they are very integral parts of a group and that going in undergeared and unprepared will only hurt the group in the end. The problem arises with the DPS. Many of them either dont think their gear matters or jsut plain dont care. As many have stated they all have that WotLK mentality still that they can just go in to heroics as soon as they hit the max level and the rest of the group will carry them through, all the while not realising that Blizzard has specifically tuned these new heroics to be mini-raids like BC heroics were. Every player must be able to carry their own weight or be prepared for the group to fall apart because of them. Every boss seems to be tuned so that every DPS must be pushing a minimum amount of DPS in order for that boss to die before the healer goes oom even from keeping minimum heals on eveyone just to keep them alive, or before the tank runs otu of CD's to pop on high dmg abilities. Just last night in fact I spent nearly 3 hours in Heroic Grim Batol because of this. First we had a mage that couldn't push above 4k DPS and was bitching becasue the healer kept going oom. We booted him and were given a boomkin druid as a replacement. Same thing, he had obviously just hit 85 and barely squeezed out the required iLevel to get into heroics and was only pushing about 5k max. HE got irritated, told us we sucked and left. After him we got a huntard in the exact same boat. He was only able to push about 6k max but that ended up being just barely enough for us to down the last boss and finish the instance...

The point is that Blizzard needs to tweak the required minimum so that it goes off of what gear you are WEARING. Many of you may be thinking "well then people will just equip their highest iLevel gear, queue then put on their regular gear", true. This could easily be solved by them requiring that you also kep that gear on during the run. If you queue with a set of gear, then swap back to a set that drops your iLevel below the minimum it should boot you from the queue or the instance for having too low of an item level... Who knows, this may just lead to people trying to run instances in gear that isnt appropriate for their class at all just for the iLevel boost. The simplest way to solve this would be for players to just stop doing it but we all know that it isn't going to happen. Just like DPS needing on Tank/Heal gear in randoms, Blizzard beefed up the restrictions slightly but it still doesn't catch everything and that right there leads to yet another very large issue but I'll start another thread reguarding that...
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  #45  
Old 01-05-2011, 05:23 AM
Havoc Havoc is offline

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The Item Level was a good idea in theory but it has been implemented horribly wrong as explained in the beginning post.

Glad I'm not the only one having those same experiences Kalenvor, the DPSers I have pugged with have usually sucked, annoys us the most is the DPS that stops killing a boss or trash to heal itself as they want to be at full health. Can't wait for people to realise this isn't Wrath anymore.
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Old 01-05-2011, 05:39 AM
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When the healer is having trouble keeping a tank up (especially if I've already given him my innervate), I will pop out of moonkin form and start healing myself to take some pressure of the healer, especially if I toss up my HOTs in preparation for a groupwide attack. Mana efficiency is really all over the place right now, and as a balance druid I have some mana to spare, so why not let my DPS suffer a little if it means the tank survives for a minute more?
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Old 01-05-2011, 08:44 AM
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When the healer is having trouble keeping a tank up (especially if I've already given him my innervate), I will pop out of moonkin form and start healing myself to take some pressure of the healer, especially if I toss up my HOTs in preparation for a groupwide attack. Mana efficiency is really all over the place right now, and as a balance druid I have some mana to spare, so why not let my DPS suffer a little if it means the tank survives for a minute more?
Mana efficiency just plain sucks, and they need to improve it.

The encounters are hard enough without worrying about going OOM all the time.
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Old 01-05-2011, 09:50 AM
Jigsaw Complex Jigsaw Complex is offline

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Mana efficiency just plain sucks, and they need to improve it.

The encounters are hard enough without worrying about going OOM all the time.
But oh no! They wanted to make healing fun! What's more fun then an ulcer? lol
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Old 01-05-2011, 10:47 AM
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But oh no! They wanted to make healing fun! What's more fun then an ulcer? lol
Yeah, it's bad enough when you've got AOE poison ticking the whole party at 4k a pop... dealing with that is "fun" enough without going OOM halfway through.
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Old 01-05-2011, 11:17 AM
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But oh no! They wanted to make healing fun! What's more fun then an ulcer? lol
See, this is exactly my problem with the new healing system. Healers are supposed to learn triage, meaning healing those that are at lower health. But they're healers. Their job is to heal, not patch people up. If that was the case, they might as well let everyone who has first aid as a healer.

Now let's take a situation where the healer is "successfully" doing triage, but they're near OOM at the end of a pull. Of course for the next pull they want everyone in the group to be at full health so the healer won't actually go OOM, so the healer drinks, heals everyone to full... But wait! Since mana efficiency is gone, they have to drink again!

Such bullshit. I don't completely agree with having everyone at full health and the healer being near full mana, but this is going too far. They went from one end of the healing spectrum to the other end.

Anyways, I've become so frustrated with the players I've encountered in normal level 85 dungeons that I'm not even gonna bother with heroics for a couple months and just work on my alts and get them up to 85. Too many idiots, arrogant jackasses, and jerks running dungeons right now.
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