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  #51  
Old 01-13-2011, 04:35 PM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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Originally Posted by Exxile87 View Post
Substitute "roots breaking on shapeshifting" with "all three trees can tank and dps evenly" and you'll how little of a shit I give about the change and how much you shouldn't be concerned.
What? English broseph.
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  #52  
Old 01-13-2011, 05:11 PM
Grunn Grunn is offline

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But dude...immunity to all forms of CC made druids a bit too good in Battlegrounds, and with the shift in emphasis from arenas to rated BGs, it needed to be addressed. It's really a fair trade off.
By "all CC" you mean "polymorph and hex" right?

They really cant let this change go live, feral has no caster defences like spell reflect, cloak or grounding totem.
getting in a casters face constantly and stopping him casting is our defence..

My guess is they want to either add root breaks to a deep feral talent,or tack it on to stampeding roar, because having come up with these aweful cata skills for us, they really seem to want us to use them.
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  #53  
Old 01-13-2011, 05:22 PM
Kalenvor Kalenvor is offline

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Booooooo, was hoping they'd do something about Chaos Orbs being soulbound with this patch... or at the very least make them purchasable with Justice Points... would give me something to spend the damn things on. Hell I'd settle for them being BoA so you can atleast suffle them around your various toons if you find yourself being short.
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  #54  
Old 01-13-2011, 06:43 PM
Exxile87 Exxile87 is offline

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Originally Posted by Leviathon View Post
What? English broseph.
Take your QQ about losing root immunity and replace it with DKs being forced into one tree to tank (instead of three), losing a fun DPS style, and still not being able to do competitive DPS as 2h Frost even though we were promised it would be even with DW Frost. We had to accept it; you'll just have to learn to do the same.

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Originally Posted by Grunn
By "all CC" you mean "polymorph and hex" right?
In what strange world are those the only forms of CC? Shapeshifting currently makes Druids unrivaled in fleeing, carrying the flag in WSG, any case of world pvp, and it makes them extremely hard to lock down in anyway. With the changes, you'll be a little more vulnerable and have to play a little smarter.
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  #55  
Old 01-13-2011, 06:58 PM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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Take your QQ about losing root immunity and replace it with DKs being forced into on tree to tank (instead of three), losing a fun DPS style, and still not being able to do competitive DPS as 2h Frost even though we were promised it would be even with DW Frost. We had to accept it; you'll just have to learn to do the same.
I do not see the two cases as being remotely similar.

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In what strange world are those the only forms of CC? Shapeshifting currently makes Druids unrivaled in fleeing, carrying the flag in WSG, any case of world pvp, and it makes them extremely hard to lock down in anyway. With the changes, you'll be a little more vulnerable and have to play a little smarter.
Unrivaled in fleeing? Indeed, that makes druids truly fearsome adversaries.
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  #56  
Old 01-13-2011, 07:07 PM
Exxile87 Exxile87 is offline

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I do not see the two cases as being remotely similar.

Unrivaled in fleeing? Indeed, that makes druids truly fearsome adversaries.
1: So you can't see them taking an iconic, class defining feature from druids (nearly complete CC immunity) and an iconic, class defining feature from DKs (tanking and DPSing in any of their three talent specs) as being remotely similar?

2: You clearly never PvPed in the 10-19 WSG bracket.
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  #57  
Old 01-13-2011, 07:10 PM
HalfElfDragon HalfElfDragon is offline

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I had no idea CC immunity was a 'core feature' of the druid class.
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  #58  
Old 01-13-2011, 07:17 PM
Exxile87 Exxile87 is offline

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I had no idea CC immunity was a 'core feature' of the druid class.
This. So much this.
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  #59  
Old 01-13-2011, 07:17 PM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon View Post
I had no idea CC immunity was a 'core feature' of the druid class.
PvP isn't the only thing in the game? Like I said if the want to make changes they should do changes that are not affecting both areas heavily (you know...like they said they would). Plus feral druid skills are BASED on that considering we don't have a cloak of shadows, a spell reflect or any other way to get to a caster (hell they even nerf Berserk). So tell me, what exactly should I be doing to a frost mage now? Clearly I should just moonfire spam rite?

Last edited by Leviathon; 01-13-2011 at 07:20 PM..
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  #60  
Old 01-13-2011, 07:29 PM
Exxile87 Exxile87 is offline

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Originally Posted by Leviathon View Post
PvP isn't the only thing in the game? Like I said if the want to make changes they should do changes that are not affecting both areas heavily (you know...like they said they would). Plus feral druid skills are BASED on that considering we don't have a cloak of shadows, a spell reflect or any other way to get to a caster (hell they even nerf Berserk). So tell me, what exactly should I be doing to a frost mage now? Clearly I should just moonfire spam rite?
We all die to frost Mages, Lev. Well, I don't because I usually am the frost Mage, but that's neither here nor there.
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  #61  
Old 01-13-2011, 07:47 PM
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1: So you can't see them taking an iconic, class defining feature from druids (nearly complete CC immunity) and an iconic, class defining feature from DKs (tanking and DPSing in any of their three talent specs) as being remotely similar?
That was not really an iconic feature of the death knight class. It was an experiment of class balance that caused the developers frequent migraines. Despite however iconic you were lead to believe it was, DK tanking rarely worked out as well as they planned, with often one tree being much better for tanking and another for DPSing. And if one trailed behind on DPSing, they could not buff it out of a fear of overpowering the tree's tanking. This is what lead to DK trees becoming so bloated and cumbersome. The DK problem affects balancing all three talent trees, while the druid shifting is a feature of the shifting mechanic itself.

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2: You clearly never PvPed in the 10-19 WSG bracket.
I have. You clearly are unaware that pvp amounts to more than just the 10-19 WSG bracket or WSG in general.

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I had no idea CC immunity was a 'core feature' of the druid class.
It is when feral druids lack practically anything else in terms of pvp defenses and utility.
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  #62  
Old 01-13-2011, 09:18 PM
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off topic, anyone here pvp these days? i'm thinking of starting up some 2v2 with a resto druid friend of mine that got cata this week, so how would druid/dk combo work? i haven't actually played end-game pvp since the change to which class can dispell what, so any insight is great.
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  #63  
Old 01-13-2011, 09:22 PM
Volkrin Volkrin is offline

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off topic, anyone here pvp these days? i'm thinking of starting up some 2v2 with a resto druid friend of mine that got cata this week, so how would druid/dk combo work? i haven't actually played end-game pvp since the change to which class can dispell what, so any insight is great.
Well, as far as DKs go I can say that they're really strong already, and look to only be getting stronger (as in, unholy is getting what amounts to near constant undispellable snare/slow immunity). As far as resto druids go I'm not too sure. On the one hand their HoTs ensure that they can heal even when not actually in LoS of their partner, but on the other hand, last time I checked they can be dispelled. Though frankly, the only healer I've seen having real troubles in PvP are disc priests, so don't worry yourself there.
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  #64  
Old 01-14-2011, 02:43 AM
Grunn Grunn is offline

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2: You clearly never PvPed in the 10-19 WSG bracket.
Trying to taking into account low level pvp balance is just going to screw things up even more, they can change the ability damage and levels that you get skills at low levels without effecting much, but removing a core part of the druid class because you are butt-hurt that you cant catch a druid without mounts is stupid.

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I had no idea CC immunity was a 'core feature' of the druid class.
Again, polymorph immunity in forms and snare breaking does not equal "CC immunity"
I dont see anyone arguing that ret Paladins have CC immunity, and since last patch they are about as good at breaking slows and roots as druids.

And yes, the ability to break roots and snares and stay on target is a core part of the druid class, feral in particular.


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Seriously, the only thing "core" about shapeshifting breaking roots was that ferals were the only class/spec being able to break roots without relying on any sort of CD. Every other class had to evaluate the situation and decide if wasting the CD now was a good idea, ferals just did it.
You mean just like ret paladins spamdispelling themselves since forever? (now even more effective since you cant protect the snares/roots with other magic debuffs!)

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What. What?
Look at what tools melee classes have for staying mobile and avoiding caster burst.
warriors have stuff like bladestorm to break out of roots or spell reflect to delay the burst.
DKs have stuff like ranged silence, AMS/AMZ
rogues can clos, vanish or smoke bomb to avoid burst
shamans have a ranged interupt and grounding totem
Paladins have the same defence druids are supposed to have, you cant root them for long.

I know listing abilities in a vaccum proves nothing, but my point is they are all defences against being rooted and burst by casters.
With the coming patch, CC the feral teams healer, root the druid, hes got no way to avoid that incoming burst, all he can do is blow a mitigation cooldown and hardcast cyclone to try and bait an interupt.

As I said this cant go live without ferals getting other ways to break roots or avoid damage.

Quote:
carrying the flag in WSG
Pug vs pug a druid nabbing the flag and shifting out of the slows thrown by the 1-2 people who follow is awesome, in organized games with organized teams who will find and kill that unsupported druid you are so much better off giving the flag to a prot warrior/pala who will actually survive being focused.

Last edited by Grunn; 01-14-2011 at 07:06 AM..
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  #65  
Old 01-14-2011, 06:17 AM
Exxile87 Exxile87 is offline

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It's called an example. We use them in communication to guide a train of thought in a certain direction. Obviously, an example doesn't cover a broad spectrum of activities or anything. It's something I picked to illustrate a point. I know that 10-19 WSG isn't the pinnacle of PvP, so it makes you look foolish for suggesting I implied that. And when you say "yeah, a solo pug v. pug druid is awesome, but an organized time coming after him unsupported will kill him" I'm assuming you expect us to think that two organized teams can't possibly face off in a Battleground, or you just wanna ignore that a druid can last just as well as a warrior or pally when he's got five people defending him.


Either way, we're debating the second (third?) round of changes on a PTR patch and we don't know if they'll even make it live. I suggest we just cool our jets and ride it out for another week or so.
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  #66  
Old 01-14-2011, 07:30 AM
Dunm Dunm is offline

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Booooooo, was hoping they'd do something about Chaos Orbs being soulbound with this patch... or at the very least make them purchasable with Justice Points... would give me something to spend the damn things on. Hell I'd settle for them being BoA so you can atleast suffle them around your various toons if you find yourself being short.
Usually a change like that comes in a major content patch that brings a new tier of gear in. I could definitely see this being done when 4.1 drops, and would not be surprised if a new "orb" is introduced for new recipes that drop in Firelands. The new orb will probably start as BoP, and they will let chaos orbs drop to BoE.

One thing I have not yet seen in the patch notes, but you can apparently see on the PTR, is that they have changed the level requirements for some of the lower level BoA items from archaeology! The night elf robes, the shammy helm from the orcs, and the vrykul axe can now all be used earlier (levels 51, 61, and 71 respectively) so that you actually get some use out of them on your alts.

Last edited by Dunm; 01-14-2011 at 07:35 AM.. Reason: had another thought, wanted to avoid double post
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  #67  
Old 01-14-2011, 07:48 AM
Urth Urth is offline

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Iconic Class traits:

Death Knights: Runeforging, Death Grip, Runic Power
Warriors: Charge, Rage
Rogues: Energy, Stealth, Poisons
Mages: Summoned Refreshments, Blink, Teleport & Portals
Warlocks: Soul Shards, Demons
Hunters: Focus, Pet Relationships (selection, leveling, talenting)
Druids: Shapeshifting and Resource Mimicry
Paladins: Holy Power, Consecrate
Shamans: Totems, Elemental Shields

Priests: ?
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  #68  
Old 01-14-2011, 08:04 AM
Bolvar Bolvar is offline

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Originally Posted by Urth View Post
Iconic Class traits:

Death Knights: Runeforging, Death Grip, Runic Power
Warriors: Charge, Rage
Rogues: Energy, Stealth, Poisons
Mages: Summoned Refreshments, Blink, Teleport & Portals
Warlocks: Soul Shards, Demons
Hunters: Focus, Pet Relationships (selection, leveling, talenting)
Druids: Shapeshifting and Resource Mimicry
Paladins: Holy Power, Consecrate
Shamans: Totems, Elemental Shields

Priests: ?
Back when I started raiding in TBC, I wouldn't think of going to Karazhan without a priest.

1. Best stamina buff of any class
2. Shackle undead - awesome for the Moroes fight, and very useful in many other parts of the raid.
3. Fear ward - essential for the Nightbane fight.
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  #69  
Old 01-14-2011, 08:36 AM
Urth Urth is offline

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Back when I started raiding in TBC, I wouldn't think of going to Karazhan without a priest.

1. Best stamina buff of any class
2. Shackle undead - awesome for the Moroes fight, and very useful in many other parts of the raid.
3. Fear ward - essential for the Nightbane fight.
Yeah, that was then, when buffs and crowd control were class exclusive. IMO, what really defines a class is not its situational properties, but aspects which are prevalent in every minute of playing, like resources and pet(s), or singular abilities like Death Grip or Charge, which really changes how the player interacts with his environment and other players.

I guess the Priest iconic ability would be Mind Control.
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Old 01-14-2011, 08:45 AM
Bolvar Bolvar is offline

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Originally Posted by Urth View Post
Yeah, that was then, when buffs and crowd control were class exclusive. IMO, what really defines a class is not its situational properties, but aspects which are prevalent in every minute of playing, like resources and pet(s), or singular abilities like Death Grip or Charge, which really changes how the player interacts with his environment and other players.

I guess the Priest iconic ability would be Mind Control.
Didn't priest get a lifegrip ability or something like that?

You also get levitate...
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  #71  
Old 01-14-2011, 08:49 AM
Arkeifrey Arkeifrey is offline

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Didn't priest get a lifegrip ability or something like that?

You also get levitate...
Yeah, leap of faith i think its called.
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  #72  
Old 01-14-2011, 08:57 AM
Grunn Grunn is offline

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Originally Posted by Urth View Post
Iconic Class traits:

Death Knights: Runeforging, Death Grip, Runic Power
Warriors: Charge, Rage
Rogues: Energy, Stealth, Poisons
Mages: Summoned Refreshments, Blink, Teleport & Portals
Warlocks: Soul Shards, Demons
Hunters: Focus, Pet Relationships (selection, leveling, talenting)
Druids: Shapeshifting and Resource Mimicry
Paladins: Holy Power, Consecrate
Shamans: Totems, Elemental Shields

Priests: ?
Are you trying to list unique class mechanics? or abilities iconic to the class? or abilities that are essential the the function of the class?

if were going for a iconic in the sense of "see a mob use this ability, its gota be a [class]" then Mindflay, mindcontrol and power word:shield are the icons for priests.

mechanics-wise priests aint got much that somone else doesnt do too, the "specialise as you go" mechanics of chakra is probably the only unique class mechanic they have now.
Mana burn counts when locks lose drain mana i guess.

I would also argue that Divine shield and auras are far more iconic to the paladin class than a combo point ripoff and ground based aoe.

Last edited by Grunn; 01-14-2011 at 09:03 AM..
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  #73  
Old 01-14-2011, 08:59 AM
Urth Urth is offline

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Yeah but Life Grip is a lot more situational for a Priest than DK Death Grip is. They made it level 85 spell because you don't even use it when leveling.

Levitate is just a buff too, but it DOES change how the Priest responds to Get Out Of The Fucking Fire. Too bad those situations usually also involve AOE raid damage, since Levitate-ing the whole raid would be OP. Mind Control is horribly situational as well, but it's a huge game changer when you can use it.

The lack of a consistent, dynamic class-identifying spell or ability is part of what I wanted to talk about in the Fixing Priests thread from weeks ago. They're either holy or shadow mages, unless you somehow get their Gods to show up and have a distinct effect.

It'd be nice if they could kill Mind Flay and make Penance just act different depending on your spec and who you're using it on. And then at level 10 you gain a huge Power/Holy/Shadow Word when you choose a spec.

*******

I am, to a point, merely listing resource mechanics, and that's a good thing. If classes FEEL different due to how they function, then that's successful. Things like Runeforging are quite small, but they save a DK from needing to enchant his/her weapon(s). I'd even suggest that more Runes be created that have more interesting mechanics. Like Silence and Purge procs, increased damage against Elementals, against Undead...

Stealth changes how a Rogue interacts with his environment. It's a huge game changer. You can even interact with NPCs in ways no one else can. Energy is more about timing and patience than the button mashing and proc-watching of other DPS classes.

Combo points may be iconic to how Rogues deal damage, but Holy Power has everything to do with how a paladin functions and the choices he/she makes - damage? heal? mitigation? Auras, Blessings and Seals are hardly on the level of other significant mechanical abilities that restrict a player like Forms, Totems and Stances.

******

Back to the original issue, I'm not sure how much a big deal the lack of Root immunity will affect Druids. I'm at a loss for what constitutes a Root effect anyway. Entangling Roots, Frost Nova(s)? Considering the multitude of other things a Druid can break from, it should be okay. I wouldn't say PVP Immunity is a class-defining feature they design around, but among the advantages of the Shapeshift mechanic. You're absolutely right bears need some kind of magical defense now though.

Last edited by Urth; 01-14-2011 at 09:27 AM..
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  #74  
Old 01-14-2011, 10:07 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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It's called an example. We use them in communication to guide a train of thought in a certain direction. Obviously, an example doesn't cover a broad spectrum of activities or anything. It's something I picked to illustrate a point. I know that 10-19 WSG isn't the pinnacle of PvP, so it makes you look foolish for suggesting I implied that. And when you say "yeah, a solo pug v. pug druid is awesome, but an organized time coming after him unsupported will kill him" I'm assuming you expect us to think that two organized teams can't possibly face off in a Battleground, or you just wanna ignore that a druid can last just as well as a warrior or pally when he's got five people defending him.
Thankfully you avoided looking foolish through your insinuation that I and others have "clearly never PvPed in the 10-19 WSG bracket."
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  #75  
Old 01-14-2011, 11:12 AM
Exxile87 Exxile87 is offline

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Thankfully you avoided looking foolish through your insinuation that I and others have "clearly never PvPed in the 10-19 WSG bracket."
Sarcasm doesn't translate well in text, especially when dealing with pissed off druids.
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