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Old 07-25-2016, 10:27 PM
Quaero Quaero is offline

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Default The "World" in World of Warcraft.

Do you guys think Blizzard has sacrificed too much in the name of convinience?

What things do you miss that are no longer in the game, or changed beyond recognition?
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  #2  
Old 07-26-2016, 11:15 AM
Urth Urth is offline

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The more I think about it, the more I think Flight changed things for the worse. I saw this as a Druid who loves his Flight Form.

The game never recovered the sense of grand, surrounding mystery until WoD.
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Old 07-26-2016, 11:18 AM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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The more I think about it, the more I think Flight changed things for the worse. I saw this as a Druid who loves his Flight Form.

The game never recovered the sense of grand, surrounding mystery until WoD.
Yea when flying in Stormwind the other day I thought about how Stormwind probably would have felt so much better if we weren't able to fly in it. I think flying can work when it has a purpose but otherwise it just seems like a gimmick that makes the world feel smaller. Wrath, for example, handled flying pretty well with Icecrown and Storm Peaks.
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Old 07-26-2016, 11:22 AM
Ratatosk Ratatosk is offline

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I think the biggest way to bring back the world would be, even more than removing flying, to have more cross-zone questlines like several in vanilla. With every zone in its own story, it makes things feel cut off instead of interconnected. I think this is actually at its worst in Legion because, despite the high quality of the zones themselves, doing them in any order means there's no story progression between them in the way, for example, WoD had Yrel evolve over Shadowmoon, Talador, and Nagrand or Wrath had the mystery of Loken come together across Howling Fjord, Grizzly Hills, and Storm Peaks.
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Old 07-26-2016, 11:28 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Legion's telling a different story though. Personally I prefer the tourist attractions of each zone if they make it feel like a place people live in, like Jade Forest.
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Old 07-26-2016, 01:14 PM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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Originally Posted by Ratatosk View Post
I think the biggest way to bring back the world would be, even more than removing flying, to have more cross-zone questlines like several in vanilla. With every zone in its own story, it makes things feel cut off instead of interconnected. I think this is actually at its worst in Legion because, despite the high quality of the zones themselves, doing them in any order means there's no story progression between them in the way, for example, WoD had Yrel evolve over Shadowmoon, Talador, and Nagrand or Wrath had the mystery of Loken come together across Howling Fjord, Grizzly Hills, and Storm Peaks.
They put the cross zone storytelling in the end game and order halls.
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Old 07-26-2016, 12:03 PM
Urth Urth is offline

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Ratatosk makes a great point as well. As efficient and steamlined the zone-questlines became, there's a giant loss of adventure when you realize we'd have to go from Hinterlands to Tanaris to Winterspring to Swamp of Sorrows just in a single chain.

Of course, the writing for Vanilla was awful, but I appreciated that they engineered epic questing.

****

The problem with the Loken and Yrel chains, imho, is the reliance on elevating an NPC character, rather than use these long subtle questlines to piece together a mystery, a mythology.
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Old 07-26-2016, 02:14 PM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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Of course, the writing for Vanilla was awful, but I appreciated that they engineered epic questing.
I'd take Vanilla's somewhat serious tone over the massive shifts we have now, bouncing between a 'serious' war story and near apocalypse to le ebin meymeys i punch le dragon in da ffaacee XDDDDDDD chains within the same zone.

Writing aside, flying really did kill the scale of the world. Big time. I'd say it was partly due to writing, but mostly because of flying. I think Blizzard themselves realised this and one of the reasons I actually don't mind the exclusion of flying. It was always a convenience feature, one that the majority of WoW players never did without (most joined towards the end of TBC and during WotLK, so).

As has been said, sectioning off the... zones, I guess, into their own neat little self-contained stories definitely hurt as well. It doesn't so much feel like you're going through a world so much as levels in a video game. I still think the 'Kingdom of Stormwind' in Vanilla was an absolutely brilliant mixture of zone-stories that had there own focus, but still referenced and were affected by the things you'd encountered in the previous areas. You only fought the Blackrock in Redridge, you only fought in the Defias in two zones, but the persistent theme of "Stormwind City is leaving us to rot! Help!" was great. That one quest chain where you had to go between the major towns and request aid only for nothing to come of it was a great piece of world building and of bread crumbing.

Speaking of self-containment, grabbing a whole stack of quests, coming back, unlocking the next set... that feels like a video game. You're going through a check list and it's artifical. In Vanilla, grabbing some quests, figuring out where you were going to do a bunch then return and head off to the next little part was great. Now it feels unimaginative in the sense that all the NPCs have a problem in THIS quarter, but then all have quests for the NEXT quarter of the map. It's so neat and tidy and perfectly aligning to hold your hand through 'questing'. It feels video-gamey. WoD actually did this a bit better than WotLK/Cataclysm/MoP did I think. I was still accidentally stumbling upon some quests I'd not encountered levelling at 100 which genuinely surprised me.

The next one is more difficult, but back then zones like Blackrock Steppes and the Plaguelands (West and East) were pretty intimidating. They reeked of danger, of menace and threats. When you were a lowbie in Redridge I remember the land turning grey and black, with that ominous mountain in the distance you knew the Blackrock Orcs were coming out of. When you first stepped into the Plaguelands its lifelessness WAS a feature. There's no Scarlet Oracle on the road for you to be wary of any more though. It's just a rare Warsong patrol you can easily AoE down and if needs be pop some cooldowns. I felt more dread questing in Eastern Plaguelands at 60 - even with some gear with me - than I did anywhere else in WoW. It's not even about sheer difficulty so much as it is atmosphere. The Dread Wastes somewhat managed to capture that, but again, by the time you got there were you AoE'ing down pretty much everything anyway.
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  #9  
Old 07-26-2016, 02:23 PM
Urth Urth is offline

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I'd take Vanilla's somewhat serious tone over the massive shifts we have now, bouncing between a 'serious' war story and near apocalypse to le ebin meymeys i punch le dragon in da ffaacee XDDDDDDD chains within the same zone.
Don't get me wrong. My complaints were nearly entirely on the shoulders of the editors and creative control. Scythe of Elune went nowhere, despite a HUGE buildup. The Hakkari questline criss crossed the world, only to end up nearly exactly where you started. For some reason the Cult of Damned found an ally in pip people?
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  #10  
Old 07-26-2016, 06:22 PM
Tilgath Tilgath is offline

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When you first stepped into the Plaguelands its lifelessness WAS a feature. There's no Scarlet Oracle on the road for you to be wary of any more though. It's just a rare Warsong patrol you can easily AoE down and if needs be pop some cooldowns. I felt more dread questing in Eastern Plaguelands at 60 - even with some gear with me - than I did anywhere else in WoW. It's not even about sheer difficulty so much as it is atmosphere. The Dread Wastes somewhat managed to capture that, but again, by the time you got there were you AoE'ing down pretty much everything anyway.
I started playing during TBC, and I remember while exploring Eastern Kingdoms I accidentally went into Western Plaguelands via Chillwind. I died almost immediately. When I was leveled up enough to try again, I remember being wary as hell while going through. It was still pretty tough, and the plagued landscape + scourge zombies shambling about made it even more nerve wracking.

Aside from some moments in Outland and Northrend, I can't remember experiencing something similar since.
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  #11  
Old 07-26-2016, 10:02 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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As has been said, sectioning off the... zones, I guess, into their own neat little self-contained stories definitely hurt as well. It doesn't so much feel like you're going through a world so much as levels in a video game. I still think the 'Kingdom of Stormwind' in Vanilla was an absolutely brilliant mixture of zone-stories that had there own focus, but still referenced and were affected by the things you'd encountered in the previous areas. You only fought the Blackrock in Redridge, you only fought in the Defias in two zones, but the persistent theme of "Stormwind City is leaving us to rot! Help!" was great. That one quest chain where you had to go between the major towns and request aid only for nothing to come of it was a great piece of world building and of bread crumbing.

Speaking of self-containment, grabbing a whole stack of quests, coming back, unlocking the next set... that feels like a video game. You're going through a check list and it's artifical. In Vanilla, grabbing some quests, figuring out where you were going to do a bunch then return and head off to the next little part was great. Now it feels unimaginative in the sense that all the NPCs have a problem in THIS quarter, but then all have quests for the NEXT quarter of the map. It's so neat and tidy and perfectly aligning to hold your hand through 'questing'. It feels video-gamey. WoD actually did this a bit better than WotLK/Cataclysm/MoP did I think. I was still accidentally stumbling upon some quests I'd not encountered levelling at 100 which genuinely surprised me.
Which reminds me of Thassarian and the whole Ebon Blade's narrative in Wrath. It felt alive, every mission and request made sense to be delivered in parts, since Northrend was being explored, discovered and raided by two big allied armies (Tirion's and Darion's).

Blizzard should take some storytelling notes from BioWare, though.
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Old 07-26-2016, 02:42 PM
Ratatosk Ratatosk is offline

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Originally Posted by Urth View Post
The problem with the Loken and Yrel chains, imho, is the reliance on elevating an NPC character, rather than use these long subtle questlines to piece together a mystery, a mythology.
Well, those are a bit different than multi-zone questlines. With Loken for example, the stuff in Howling Fjord and Grizzly Hills stand entirely on their own as well. I was just giving them as an example of story development that isn't possible with Legion's system.

What I meant by zone-spanning quests is things like the Scythe of Elune questline going from Ashenvale to Duskwood, or how the Missing Diplomat and old Defias quests went all over the place.

I do appreciate the artifact and class hall quests going around the world though, moreso the former. And the profession quests go back and forth across the Broken Isles zones from what I hear.
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Old 07-26-2016, 04:54 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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All it needs is consequences mattering and people acting consistently and not in esoteric knots for Arm to untangle
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  #14  
Old 07-26-2016, 02:22 PM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

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What things do you miss that are no longer in the game, or changed beyond recognition?
The Horde.
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Old 07-26-2016, 06:35 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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The Horde.
I know that feel...
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Old 07-26-2016, 06:53 PM
Arakiba Arakiba is offline

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I'm overall happy with how things are, I like the convenience available (I will defend being able to teleport straight to a dungeon for eternity).

That said, I do miss a few things. I miss world spanning quests. I remember stuff like the Missing Diplomat and Stalvan Mistmantle questlines, and other similar ones sending you all over creation. Sometimes annoying, admittedly (looking at you, totem quests), but still, it was fun and world building.

I also miss tradeskills requiring more than just the main material and one or two current trade materials. I was cranking out shirts earlier in the week to "learn" them all, and I noticed how the shirts would require this dye or that, maybe two of them even, and then a thread or two as well. Very minor things overall, and they never cost much, but it was a neat touch that I forgot I missed.

Now its just take cloth, take elemental thing or blood, and slam together. Boom, robe.
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Old 07-26-2016, 10:44 PM
DerpiusMaximus DerpiusMaximus is offline

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The Horde.


Cata killed the Horde and it never recovered.
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Old 07-27-2016, 02:14 AM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

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Cata killed the Horde and it never recovered.
Man, ain't that the truth.

I don't know what Blizzard was thinking and I wonder if they regret what they've done.
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Old 07-27-2016, 12:20 PM
Hammerbrew Hammerbrew is offline

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Man, ain't that the truth.

I don't know what Blizzard was thinking and I wonder if they regret what they've done.
I sincerely believe Metzen is too coked up to notice/care at this point.
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Old 07-27-2016, 12:22 PM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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I sincerely believe Metzen is too coked up to notice/care at this point.
He got his self-insert fantasies sustained through Thrall long enough to work on an actual comic book franchise (Overwatch), so yeah, he doesn't give a shit any more.
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