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Old 08-20-2019, 05:32 PM
Triceron Triceron is offline

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Default How do you regard 'Warcraft Canon'?

What do you consider as 'Canon' to the Warcraft universe? Is it only the latest-and-most-relevant material? Is it anything that existed in all the games, regardless of story-implications? Does each game have its own separate bubble of existence?

I ask this because there are things that exist in WC3 which I'm not sure whether to consider as Canonical or simply left 'Unconfirmed'. Things like Mud Golems and Granite golems, or the scorpion Arachnathids or the Coatl, or even the Obsidian Statues and the goblin Tinkers (specifically, Robo Goblin and Pocket Factory).

I'm sure we can consider them canon, but just as easily they might not be. Dark Trolls were effectively deemed an extinct race recently. Med'an was purged from the books. The entire RPG book series was deemed non-canon. So is it still safe to assume things 'are canon until explained otherwise'? Or the opposite, and 'nothing is canon until it is confirmed'?

Last edited by Triceron; 08-20-2019 at 05:34 PM..
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Old 08-20-2019, 11:26 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Most recent stuff is canon until contradicted, but the fact that this is nowhere near as simple as it should be is testament to how Blizz has made such a mess.
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  #3  
Old 08-21-2019, 10:57 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
What do you consider as 'Canon' to the Warcraft universe?
The word "zeitgeist" comes to mind? Only, in regards to Blizzard staff's current tone and beliefs.
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Old 08-22-2019, 03:45 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Canon is a lie continually proven false.
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  #5  
Old 08-26-2019, 11:59 AM
BoxCrayonTales BoxCrayonTales is offline

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The canon is a mess. So I decided to abandon it and invest my interest in the "world of retrocraft" attempt to rewrite the story.

I'm currently working on my own attempt to cleanup the Starcraft story. It is surprisingly easy to do since the problems with the story only stem from a handful of characters like Amon and Raynor. If you remove them, then everything else easily falls into place. I published a google doc if anyone is interested in perusing and offering critique; I got the basic premise laid but it is still a huge work in progress for things like history, politics, theaters, etc. Starcraft lore is surprisingly sparse.
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Old 09-02-2019, 11:50 AM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Everything's "canon" until abrogated by later events.
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Old 09-05-2019, 08:04 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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To me, Canon is everything that has been stated in official media and hasn't yet been retconed. Nothing in Chronicle has been retconned as of this date.

However, to make the world have more sense, I have a vast headcanon that changing many different kinds of details, while keeping the story of WoW. This is where things like mud golems and couatls come in. I also have a separate altcraft that is not tied to canon, and is an alternate WoW story, following WC3, it's themes and keeping its units, and planned to be a Reforged mod.
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Old 05-09-2020, 10:20 AM
vertigo12 vertigo12 is offline

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To me canon still holds it's "canonicity" if it wasn't retconned in-game or the lore hasn't been updated or revisited after a long while. i.e. Turalyon and Alleria ate "presumed dead" for several WoW games and expansion up until Legion. There are many India being revised as many lore specifics remained untouched or haven't been put on the forefront like Muehzalah.
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Old 06-02-2020, 12:27 PM
Kir the Wizard Kir the Wizard is offline

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Canon is current canon, but fanworks that are never canonized can be free to work with the version/mutation/mix of various Warcraft canons as they wish. Fanfiction is fanfiction, at the end of the day, even if you call it fancy words, like a "Coda".
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  #10  
Old 06-03-2020, 02:24 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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Canon is what communities and sub-communities collectively regard as canon. Canon is a communitarian process.
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Old 06-07-2020, 07:54 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
Canon is what communities and sub-communities collectively regard as canon. Canon is a communitarian process.
It really isn't. I can maybe really want something to be true, and I can convince a lot of people to want it to be true. Even think it to be true if my theory is convincing enough. But Blizzard can choose to totally disregard that and proceed in their own direction.

In fact Blizz hasn't taken the fandom/consensus side too often. Going their own way no matter what is good in the sense that blatantly pandering to fans is bad, but also bad because they are terrible hacks.
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Old 06-08-2020, 01:24 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
It really isn't. I can maybe really want something to be true, and I can convince a lot of people to want it to be true. Even think it to be true if my theory is convincing enough. But Blizzard can choose to totally disregard that and proceed in their own direction.

In fact Blizz hasn't taken the fandom/consensus side too often. Going their own way no matter what is good in the sense that blatantly pandering to fans is bad, but also bad because they are terrible hacks.
Honestly I feel like Blizzard kind of falls into the middle when it comes to such things. On the one hand they possess the comic book, movie and episodic television show habit of changing things on the fly when it's convenient for that moment of the story, but on the other hand they're still enough of a bunch of fantasy/sci-fi geeks themselves to comprehend why that would infuriate lore fans and so they don't bite our heads off demanding that we stop taking things so seriously.

They don't right the ship, but at least they're reasonable about the whole thing. No Twitter breakdowns or irritated snapping at questions during Blizzcons. Which is more than can be said of the modern television and movie creators who freak out at the negative responses whenever they try to feed their audiences bad continuity and rampant inconsistency after earlier forays into fantasy and sci-fi adaptation gave everyone a taste of what competently serialized storytelling and worldbuilding can actually deliver.

Star Wars, Game of Thrones, Harry Potter, GoT; in an age where visual mediums have replaced reading as entertainment for so many, these IP's basically showed mainstream audiences peeks into the genres where Chronicles, Sagas, Epics, Cycles, Trilogies, Tetralogies, and more are the rule of the day and it's roundly understood that if a story beat severely damages or delegitimizes everything that came before, it can alienate readers from returning for the next installment. This is stuff that's just plain a given in the world of reading multiple books and then waiting a year or more for each of their follow-ups to continue the stories. There's only one Star Wars franchise in film, but there are hundreds of that sort of thing in novels. And in the novels earnest effort at overall long-term consistency is expected, lest the botching of Book #2's continuation from Book #1 prevent anyone from bothering with Book #3.

While Blizzard doesn't apply that mindset across the board, I still get the sense that they "get" it. They know where lore fans are coming from, even if they don't necessarily think that mentality is ideal with a game of WoW's particular framework. Conversely, a lot of people making fantasy and sci-fi properties into film and television seem to not comprehend just what sort of expectations and audiences these particular genres bring with them. By their very nature they attract lore hounds and fictional history experts who are accustomed to the people making the materials at least pretending to give a damn about it all making sense.

Moreover, several years of successful attempts at increasingly long-form serialization (see: stuff like Rome, Sopranos, GoT, and numerous "bingeable" Netflix shows) conditioned even the "normie" fans to become part-time scholars of their particular favorite series, meaning even they're more ready and primed to point out and reject story mismanagement than the same audiences might have been in the past.
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Old 06-08-2020, 02:06 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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I totally agree with what you wrote. But it wasn't quite what I was meaning.

I meant that Genesis' assertion that fanbases have a big impact on the development of the work. Particularly that they shape canon is, well silly tbh. Fans can have very good theories which may guess future developments or outright get stolen by the creator(s). But ultimately it is not a community process, the creators can go whichever way they like even if they are influenced somewhat by the fans.
Coincidentally Blizz are middle of the pack in that they do cave in to fans desires somewhat but not too often. More often they stick to their guns which as I explained is both good and bad.

TLDR canon is not a community process.
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Old 06-10-2020, 02:25 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
It really isn't. I can maybe really want something to be true, and I can convince a lot of people to want it to be true. Even think it to be true if my theory is convincing enough. But Blizzard can choose to totally disregard that and proceed in their own direction.

In fact Blizz hasn't taken the fandom/consensus side too often. Going their own way no matter what is good in the sense that blatantly pandering to fans is bad, but also bad because they are terrible hacks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by C9H20 View Post
I totally agree with what you wrote. But it wasn't quite what I was meaning.

I meant that Genesis' assertion that fanbases have a big impact on the development of the work. Particularly that they shape canon is, well silly tbh. Fans can have very good theories which may guess future developments or outright get stolen by the creator(s). But ultimately it is not a community process, the creators can go whichever way they like even if they are influenced somewhat by the fans.
Coincidentally Blizz are middle of the pack in that they do cave in to fans desires somewhat but not too often. More often they stick to their guns which as I explained is both good and bad.

TLDR canon is not a community process.
TLDR: Canon is a community process, but I don't think that you understand what I am saying in my glib comment, which is pretty clear in the bold. I am NOT saying "that fanbases have a big impact on the development of the work" at all. Nowhere did I even suggest it. I would find such an assertion silly too if someone argued that, but I did not.

When I say that canon is a community process, what I am arguing is that canon comes from various communities and sub-communities collectively deciding - though often not conscientiously or intentionally - what should be regarded as canon. Most fan communities will buy into the prevailing power structure but some will disregard it. When you say above that Blizzard can choose to regard fans and go their own direction, that's true. And many fans will regard as canon whatever Blizzard decrees as canon because of the power dynamics of authority in the creative producer/consumer relationship. That is but one community, and you are tacitly implying that this is your preferred community when you suggest that Blizzard has the power to change canon. That's fine.

Other communities may disregard what Blizzard decrees as canon in favor of their own canonical preferences or may disregard certain portions of what Blizzard says or does as various degrees of canonical authority. But as I said, the nature of power dynamics means that most fans will gravitate towards Blizzard's canon, and this will be the largest community. This is a community process in terms of tacit acquiesce of authority for Blizzard to decree canon. And individuals are asked to likewise accept that authority to decree canon so that they can participate in that given community.

This is a process we see play itself out in terms of both religious canon and creative fiction canon.

There is not a single Christian canon for the Bible. There are multiple. There are also non-canonical books that some ecclesiastical institutions regard as theologically valid that other ecclesiastical institutions don't regard as theologically valid. But canon is largely about what a particular religious community regards as canon.

In fiction, there are communities of Harry Potter fans, for example, who regard Cursed Child as canonical and there are those that don't. There are those that view statements from J.K. Rowling on Twitter or interviews as canonical, and there are those that don't. There are those that see the new Fantastic Beasts films as part of canon and those that don't. And as one can imagine, there may be fan communities that have mixed views regarding these various positions.

Last edited by Genesis; 06-10-2020 at 02:29 AM..
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Old 06-11-2020, 10:40 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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I figured you were arguing from a death of the author position. Well even more than that, DotA means that you can interpret things how you think they should be interpreted regardless of what the author says. You would go a step further and say that fans can not only interpret how they like but choose to acknowledge and disregard parts of the work as they please too.

I feel pretty comfortable in stating that there is a right and a wrong position here. And the right position is to listen to what Blizzard is saying, the rest is just fanon no matter how you try to glorify it.

As for Christianity, the only reason there is canonical disagreement is because God won't give any Word of God for the Bible
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Old 06-11-2020, 01:54 PM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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That's not really Death of the Author either.
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Old 06-12-2020, 02:01 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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It really is tho.
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  #18  
Old 06-12-2020, 04:31 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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Quote:
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It really is tho.
They overlap, but they are not the same "tho".

Death of the Author pertains to interpretation of a particular work and the relation of that interpretation to the author.

Canon pertains to what materials are regarded as "official," "authoritative," or "binding" for a fictive work or community.

There is certainly overlap. For example, statements by JK Rowling about Dumbledore being gay may violate both the notion of the "death of the author" as well as questions in the fanbase about the degree to which Rowling's statements should be regarded as canonical. But they are not the same "tho."

Last edited by Genesis; 06-12-2020 at 04:35 AM..
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Old 06-16-2020, 11:23 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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I am not saying this is Death of the Author, just that it is similar. I understood your comment "that is not DotA" that I don't get the term, which I do so the "tho"

Regardless canon is what the creator(s) says it is, fans can disagree and make their own but it still remains fanon. Gay Dumbledore (superfluous) and black Hermione (extremely silly) I might dislike and JKRs whole desperate attempt to remain relevant and sound smart on twatter but my dislike will not stop her from writing those things into future books or movies if she likes and it will be canon.

Tho you could also cut back on the snark.

Last edited by C9H20; 06-16-2020 at 11:27 PM..
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