Scrolls of Lore Forums  

Go Back   Scrolls of Lore Forums > WarCraft Discussion > WarCraft Lore Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Old 07-30-2011, 10:21 PM
Xilizhra Xilizhra is offline

Elune
Xilizhra's Avatar
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 6,971

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fojar View Post
So basically, two different types of Forsaken:

Those who hate everything and want revenge on everything

And those who want to kill everything.

Don't sound very varied.
According to this manual, yes.

According to another manual I read, Jaina died before Arthas' party reached Andorhal.
__________________
"I'll tell ya what de Horde is. De Horde that me an' Thrall built. It be a family. When de whole world try ta put us down, da family come an' pick us back up."
— Vol'jin
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 07-30-2011, 10:25 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

Site Staff - Moderator
Aldrius's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,026

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
According to this manual, yes.

According to another manual I read, Jaina died before Arthas' party reached Andorhal.
Which one was that...?
__________________
"The Demons did their job well. You creatures are as reckless and bloodthirsty as they ever were."
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 07-31-2011, 03:25 AM
Brohgshaman Brohgshaman is offline

Demon Hunter
Brohgshaman's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 491

Default

That write up of the trolls is just bad. Looking at the trolls in wow, we see there nothing like that, well, except the ritual stuff and how they fight. But the darkspear trolls have shown how noble they really can be well still retaining some of there wild nature. I love darkspear trolls, and Vol'jin is so awesome I just want to hug him each time I see him.
__________________


Richard A. Knaak, the Ron Jeremy of Warcraft Lore.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 07-31-2011, 03:57 AM
AndyJP AndyJP is offline

Eternal
AndyJP's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: 2021
Posts: 4,508

Default

I guess the language issue really doesn't matter. I think it all comes down to the fact that it's difficult to write a story in which there are many different languages and you have to keep coming up with plot devices that allow these races to communicate with each other. I just didn't think there explanation worked very well.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 07-31-2011, 04:16 AM
Killchrono Killchrono is offline

Arch-Druid
Killchrono's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: A big point of nothing in space and time (i.e. Brisbane, Australia)
Posts: 1,710

Default

This guide seems pretty inconsistent with established lore.

Night Elves are 'slow to anger?' Like Omacron said, WC3 would like a word with you.

Trolls passionately hate humans? So that's why their leader is opposed to Garrosh's war against them

Forsaken are varied? I mean, don't get me wrong, from the sounds of it the article was tongue-in-cheek, but really, one of the biggest problems with Forsaken is that each one is essentially a carbon copy of one another.

I wonder if this was written by an internal lore writer, or if it was one of the outsourced guide writers.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dithon1 View Post
How exactly am I still qualified as a "new guy" still?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killchrono View Post
Shut up and get in the bag, new guy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dithon1 View Post
At least people notice me now. ;-;
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 07-31-2011, 04:26 AM
Vaeku Vaeku is offline

Demon Hunter
Vaeku's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 436

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killchrono View Post
Trolls passionately hate humans? So that's why their leader is opposed to Garrosh's war against them
That's one troll. I'm sure the majority of trolls still really hate humans. And I think the guide was talking about ALL trolls, not just Darkspear.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 07-31-2011, 07:13 AM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

Elune
Frostwolf's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7,441

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killchrono View Post
This guide seems pretty inconsistent with established lore.

Night Elves are 'slow to anger?' Like Omacron said, WC3 would like a word with you.

Trolls passionately hate humans? So that's why their leader is opposed to Garrosh's war against them

Forsaken are varied? I mean, don't get me wrong, from the sounds of it the article was tongue-in-cheek, but really, one of the biggest problems with Forsaken is that each one is essentially a carbon copy of one another.

I wonder if this was written by an internal lore writer, or if it was one of the outsourced guide writers.
I played WC3. Aside from Illidan and Maiev, I'm having a hard time finding night elves doing saying something that actually sounded like they were angry. Even when they ambushed the Warsong clan, they didn't sound enraged. But I do agree that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

You realize in almost every description we get of trolls, they are described as incredibly hateful? The Darkspear have joined the Horde, but they aren't carebears like everyone thinks they are. They're still trolls.

Quote:
"The savage trolls of Azeroth are infamous for their cruelty, dark mysticism, and seething hatred for all other races. Yet one exception among the trolls is the Darkspear tribe and its cunning leader, Vol’jin."
Do remember, this guide was written before Cataclysm was released. I don't really care about the Forsaken, though. I only posted that info because I knew at least someone would find it interesting. I have no opinion on them either way.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 07-31-2011, 07:25 AM
Brohgshaman Brohgshaman is offline

Demon Hunter
Brohgshaman's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 491

Default

The concept of the darkspear trolls is there not part of the main body of troll0kind anymore, haven't been since they joined the horde, and as such, they don't follow those old hatreds and twisted methods of ritual anymore. You think this wrong? You simply click on a troll npc and find how they greet to welcomingly and treat members of the horde as brothers. This goes against anything this discription makes of them. And I'm glad.
__________________


Richard A. Knaak, the Ron Jeremy of Warcraft Lore.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 07-31-2011, 10:21 AM
Soldrethar Soldrethar is offline

Banished
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,176

Default

Blizzard needs to get their fucking shit together and stop having multiple different people write the goddam lore so this fucking inconsitancy and contradictions will stop.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 07-31-2011, 10:30 AM
Sonneillon Sonneillon is offline

Lord of the
Assassin's League
Sonneillon's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Canadaland
Posts: 9,990
BattleTag: Sonneillon #1112

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldrethar View Post
Blizzard needs to get their fucking shit together and stop having multiple different people write the goddam lore so this fucking inconsitancy and contradictions will stop.
You do realize having one person write the entire story for the game and external media is pure drooling delusional crazy right? It would give way to more inconsistency, less plot, greater content delays, more contradictions and a huge drop in quality...

Wow is a very large universe it has many interweaving stories with many different influences and plot lines. It has different tones and depths, it's rich for a reason. I like to view it like the Cthulhu Mythos, multiple writers influencing off eachother, infact, that is a direct refrence. You need that, you need a big pool of ideas and feedback when you are on a timeline. To suggest otherwise is insane.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 07-31-2011, 10:40 AM
Brohgshaman Brohgshaman is offline

Demon Hunter
Brohgshaman's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 491

Default

comic book companies like marvel and dc exist in there own universe of storytelling. That doesn't mean all characters and stories within that universe is written by one sole writer, they have dozens of writers and artists all writing there own stories, and sometimes they overlap, thats just how things work. Its the same with world of warcraft, there are dozens of different characters and stories that need working on, and you can't expect one person to write that all, thats mental.
__________________


Richard A. Knaak, the Ron Jeremy of Warcraft Lore.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 07-31-2011, 10:48 AM
Soldrethar Soldrethar is offline

Banished
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,176

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brohgshaman View Post
comic book companies like marvel and dc exist in there own universe of storytelling. That doesn't mean all characters and stories within that universe is written by one sole writer, they have dozens of writers and artists all writing there own stories, and sometimes they overlap, thats just how things work. Its the same with world of warcraft, there are dozens of different characters and stories that need working on, and you can't expect one person to write that all, thats mental.
I know but still, it's just that there are constant (not completely lore breaking) inconsistancies which seem to be because of some writers not being aware of what other writers wrote. I think that all the writers should make sure they're not contradicting previously established lore.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 07-31-2011, 11:01 AM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

Elune
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 21,434
BattleTag: Leviathonlx#1820

Default

We Must Find This Guide Writer And Execute Him To Snoo Snoo For His 2 Sentences!
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 07-31-2011, 11:07 AM
Sonneillon Sonneillon is offline

Lord of the
Assassin's League
Sonneillon's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Canadaland
Posts: 9,990
BattleTag: Sonneillon #1112

Default

You know (and this may make a few of you laugh) I really don't mind retcons. Some people have their world shattered by the smallest alternations, but since day one the game has been fluid like that. You either learn to swim or you drown in a sea of bitter rage. Personally, when learning more about the history of the world I enjoy having things shaken up. I like having my understanding of things fleshed out and intersect in unexpected ways. Thats actually panned out to be half the fun of WoW as a lore fan is speculating these "Retcons". Due to a few errors and hail marry plays its become a dirty word. All and all, the vast majority of these retcons make exploring the lore a living thing. Our knowledge of Oldgods is a good example of this, it's whats gotten me so attached to the WoW lore, having your knowledge grow with the lore makes you FEEL like part of it. I LIKE not knowing all the facts, I like the inconstant lore that make sense down the road or return at a later date rectified. I've actually grown to like the retroactive exploration of the world. Had I known what I know now back in Vanilla things would be different, I've come to enjoy the nostalgia of the speculation. Hell, some of what they do with the worlds background and stories are even purposeful to throw us off, the games lore is littered with red-herrings.

The problem is solidity, some things SHOULD be solid within the lore but thats not always the case. Certainly, theres been big big changes since Warcraft 3 with how things play out. For the most part WoW was once the end all and be all Cannon, but few people realise or accept that some things are just for the sake of the videogame. At the end of the day its a game, it has a story thats not always best told in the game format. You either learn to accept gameplay concessions as is or you question whats cannon or not (and to that leads to the way of madness.) My advice is roll with the punches and when you can hit them at Blizzcon with a cheapshot to keep them humble. I really don't think anyone should be fired for anything they write, at the end of the day stuff like these few language sentences are simply trying to make sense of things for the players who have questions. Sometimes that shits just there for the games sake. All and all, the retcons, the inconsistency, the videogame mechanics, the disjointed plot points, the loose ends, the concessions to cool, the pop culture references, the external influences all these things make the lore. It's written by many people who ANY of us would love to influence or have the jobs of, but don't kid yourself, theres a lot of work behind the scenes. Their task is not an easy one, and really as a fan of the game which you are, you should cut them some slack. Things aren't perfect, but you know what... they are ground breaking in the medium. I'm not saying you have to like everything, but you wouldn't be here if it wasn't for them.

Last edited by Sonneillon; 07-31-2011 at 11:24 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 07-31-2011, 12:20 PM
HalfElfDragon HalfElfDragon is offline

The draconic Titleless - Mod
HalfElfDragon's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Tacoma, WA
Posts: 15,545
Send a message via AIM to HalfElfDragon Send a message via MSN to HalfElfDragon Send a message via Yahoo to HalfElfDragon

Default

My issue is less with retcons, but how they're handled. Now there are some retcons which I would have disliked no matter how they're handled (like Muradin's resurrection), but that's a minority of it.

A retcon should be handled as a reveal, a plot twist. They shouldn't just be dropped in and handled like it was never any different. If they had put a small quest or something in Swamp of Sorrows in which the draenei that we know today were revealed by one of the corrupted ones there it would have been much better. Instead most of the time retcons are treated like it was never anything else.

Most of the 'retcons' involving Old Gods have been handled in this manner and thus have worked much better.
__________________
Quote:
Lucio Benado be wanting to say, Hey, what's up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Porimlys View Post
See! Not everyone on the internet is so stubborn they can't have their opinions changed
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 07-31-2011, 12:31 PM
Sonneillon Sonneillon is offline

Lord of the
Assassin's League
Sonneillon's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Canadaland
Posts: 9,990
BattleTag: Sonneillon #1112

Default

HalfDragonElf, I fully agree with you on that one. I'm not saying that its not poorly done, once and awhile unnecessary, occasionally silly... but when looking at something of WoWs magnitude, the sum total is what matters. Stupid shit happens with loads of fiction, sometimes it's good to just let it slide or look past it when its fairly inconsequential. I was more responding to Sold's trademark knee jerk hyperbole outrage. Sometimes it's good to remind yourself to look at the sum total and let the little stuff like the language mechanic lore from a battle chest guide roll of your back.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 07-31-2011, 06:45 PM
Killchrono Killchrono is offline

Arch-Druid
Killchrono's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: A big point of nothing in space and time (i.e. Brisbane, Australia)
Posts: 1,710

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaeku View Post
That's one troll. I'm sure the majority of trolls still really hate humans. And I think the guide was talking about ALL trolls, not just Darkspear.
Yeah I meant to say Darkspear. Understandably a lot of trolls hate humans, but the Darkspear have been very tame in that regard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmictimelion View Post
I played WC3. Aside from Illidan and Maiev, I'm having a hard time finding night elves doing saying something that actually sounded like they were angry. Even when they ambushed the Warsong clan, they didn't sound enraged. But I do agree that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Well when you consider the Sentinels just rushing into combat with the orcs, it doesn't make sense. Even if they weren't angry (which I'd argue Tyrande was at least very quick to judge), they were quite quick to cast judgement.

I'll admit, the 'slow emotions' thing kind of makes sense with other instances. See: Illidan not getting over Tyrande, Maiev obsessing over Illidan, Fandral obsessing over his son.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfElfDragon View Post
My issue is less with retcons, but how they're handled. Now there are some retcons which I would have disliked no matter how they're handled (like Muradin's resurrection), but that's a minority of it.

A retcon should be handled as a reveal, a plot twist. They shouldn't just be dropped in and handled like it was never any different. If they had put a small quest or something in Swamp of Sorrows in which the draenei that we know today were revealed by one of the corrupted ones there it would have been much better. Instead most of the time retcons are treated like it was never anything else.
See, I never understood why they didn't treat the Draenei retcon as innaccurate history in the game world. Say they found demonic texts which suggested one thing about the eredar, but were inaccurate and they got the facts sorted out when the draenei came along. That would have been a cool way to go about it.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dithon1 View Post
How exactly am I still qualified as a "new guy" still?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killchrono View Post
Shut up and get in the bag, new guy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dithon1 View Post
At least people notice me now. ;-;
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 08-01-2011, 04:12 AM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

Elune
Frostwolf's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7,441

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killchrono View Post
Well when you consider the Sentinels just rushing into combat with the orcs, it doesn't make sense. Even if they weren't angry (which I'd argue Tyrande was at least very quick to judge), they were quite quick to cast judgement.

I'll admit, the 'slow emotions' thing kind of makes sense with other instances. See: Illidan not getting over Tyrande, Maiev obsessing over Illidan, Fandral obsessing over his son.
Well, I think the reason they were so quick to act was because the orcs weren't just walking around Ashenvale like a lost puppy. They were chopping down trees and even killing wisps. Thing is, you know what the first sound the orcs heard from the night elves was? Laughter. Like, when I think "angry" in Warcraft, I'm thinking red-hot troll rage. The Sentinels definitely weren't angry. They were quick to act, though.

Indeed, it seems night elves don't react to loss or rejection very well.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 08-01-2011, 08:22 AM
Cemotucu Cemotucu is offline

Elune
Cemotucu's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: St. M. of Tucumán, Argentina
Posts: 6,663
BattleTag: CEMOTucu#2138

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmictimelion View Post
Well, I think the reason they were so quick to act was because the orcs weren't just walking around Ashenvale like a lost puppy. They were chopping down trees and even killing wisps. Thing is, you know what the first sound the orcs heard from the night elves was? Laughter. Like, when I think "angry" in Warcraft, I'm thinking red-hot troll rage. The Sentinels definitely weren't angry. They were quick to act, though.

Indeed, it seems night elves don't react to loss or rejection very well.
Remember also the night elves mention in Mekkatorque short story. And also... the Nelf leaders passivism when the orcs invade Ashenvale. That is canon since Leyara's story.
__________________
FOR NYORLOTH, ALWAYS AND FOREVER!

Loremaster on
MundoWarcraft

(Spanish Warcraft Lore Community and Roleplay)
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 08-01-2011, 08:53 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

Elune
Lord Grimtale's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Slaughtered Lamb
Posts: 22,046
BattleTag: Grimtale67#1407

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cemotucu View Post
Remember also the night elves mention in Mekkatorque short story. And also... the Nelf leaders passivism when the orcs invade Ashenvale. That is canon since Leyara's story.
That just strikes me as a huge middle finger to how the Night Elves were established in Warcraft 3.

"You are not welcome here!" - Tyrande Whisperwind
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 08-01-2011, 09:37 AM
Sonneillon Sonneillon is offline

Lord of the
Assassin's League
Sonneillon's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Canadaland
Posts: 9,990
BattleTag: Sonneillon #1112

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimtale View Post
That just strikes me as a huge middle finger to how the Night Elves were established in Warcraft 3.

"You are not welcome here!" - Tyrande Whisperwind
WoW in its entire 6 years has been a huge middle finger to the Night Elves of WC3 if you ask me.

Everything from the giant side nose mustache and armpit feathers, to Tyrande's being a useless house wife standing around, to the bouncey bimbo nightelves, to the absent Elune lore, to Teldrassil, to that terrible Stormrage novel, to how Illidan was handled in Outland... I could keep going.

Last edited by Sonneillon; 08-01-2011 at 09:41 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 08-01-2011, 11:00 AM
Frostwolf Frostwolf is offline

Elune
Frostwolf's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7,441

Default

at leest nite elfs r hawt rite??? alianse favertizim
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 08-01-2011, 11:25 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

Elune
Lord Grimtale's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Slaughtered Lamb
Posts: 22,046
BattleTag: Grimtale67#1407

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmictimelion View Post
at leest nite elfs r hawt rite??? alianse favertizim
That's what happens when you join the Alliance, you get cutesy'd up. I can easily say that I am absolutely shocked that Blizzard went and changed the male Worgen model from an elegant feline wolf to actually making them look truer to their original look and giving them a savage edge.

And male Worgen is just about the only real intimidating looking race that the Alliance has right now, for that matter. (Dwarves can maybe give them a run for their money... if they're drunk enough)

Last edited by Lord Grimtale; 08-01-2011 at 11:38 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 08-01-2011, 12:48 PM
Magistrix Verdande Magistrix Verdande is offline

Elune
Magistrix Verdande's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Xerrath
Posts: 11,081
BattleTag: Malice#2774

Default

I have a feeling that the Night Elves in their Warcraft 3 form - which I vastly prefered to the WoW-Night Elves - could not be portrayed as they were in WC3 as it'd make them appear far to powerful.

Aside from recent developements with the Forsaken, all playable races in World of Warcraft seem to start off on the premise that they are vurnerable and in need of their allies to survive. Let's take a overview on the matter, from an Vanilla p.o.v

Orcs - Their nation is budding and still faces threats, both external and internal. Never before has anything such as an Orc city been heard of, never before have the Orcs been anything less of small tribes, or a barbaric Horde. They're adapting to a entirely new life in a barren wasteland, still recovering from a recent war.

Trolls - Their ancestral homeland has been usurped by more powerful jungle-troll clans, and their homes on the islands have been sundered and taken by the waves. They established a new homeland on the shores of Durotar - but lost that, as well.

Tauren - They are in a similar position to the Orcs. Having lived in nomadic tribes before, the Tauren people now go urban, adapting to life in a city. Just like the Orcs, the Tauren suffer from both internal and external conflict, and not all agree with Cairne's leadership.

Forsaken - Having conquered Lordaeron from the Scourge, the Forsaken are unable to reproduce and are beset by enemies on all sides. They fight a war against the Scarlet Crusade, the Scourge and the Alliance, with no means to bolster their defenses. At the same time, the race as a whole tries to adapt to their new existance, and the vast changes it brings.

I suppose I should go in-depth with the remaining races as well, but time is short. Humans lost their king and the House of Nobles refuse to send military to several outlying colonies under attack, Gnomes lost their homeland and are living out their existance as refugees, and the dwarves royal heir has been kidnapped/defected to the enemy nation.

The Night Elves were already described as these ancient, powerful and immortal beings. They could not remain that way, I think, and be on even ground with the rest of the races in WoW. All races were, I believe, meant to feel... Stranded, shattered and recovering from the recent devestations of Warcraft 3.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Pratchett
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.

No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 08-01-2011, 01:00 PM
Rashid Rashid is offline

Arch-Druid
Rashid's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,448

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magistrix Verdande View Post
The Night Elves were already described as these ancient, powerful and immortal beings. They could not remain that way, I think, and be on even ground with the rest of the races in WoW. All races were, I believe, meant to feel... Stranded, shattered and recovering from the recent devestations of Warcraft 3.
Following Warcraft 3 they were in a vulnerable state though. Felwood became corrupted, Malfurion went back to sleep, the destruction of Nordrassil meant that they were all mortal, and they were thrust from their secretive civilization into a world where all kinds of foreign influence could threaten them and magic is used haphazardly. They could still be ancient and wise beings, but have to deal with not being able to hide in the woods all their lives anymore.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Thank goodness Golden handled Rise of the Horde, or it might have started with the tale of the Eredar leaders Archie and Jay being seduced by the power of the Dark Titan Gary while their close friend Lenny fled Argus to escape the corruption.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:18 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.