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  #5451  
Old 05-21-2018, 03:48 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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So Jaina was off fighting demons by herself during the events of Legion? That was my headcanon!
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  #5452  
Old 05-21-2018, 03:57 PM
Mungo Mungo is offline

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How the hell am I supposed to feel proud of my faction when it's constantly shoved in our faces that Daelin was 100% completely right about the Horde and the best, most logical, and completely justified thing the Alliance could do is slaughter every single one of the horde races down to the last man, woman, and child?
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  #5453  
Old 05-21-2018, 04:30 PM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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I get an unreasonable amount of joy out of this. Kruul drove me crazy over the last 24 hours.


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  #5454  
Old 05-21-2018, 06:19 PM
Asterisk Asterisk is offline

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Originally Posted by Mungo View Post
...

...

...

How the hell am I supposed to feel proud of my faction when it's constantly shoved in our faces that Daelin was 100% completely right about the Horde and the best, most logical, and completely justified thing the Alliance could do is slaughter every single one of the horde races down to the last man, woman, and child?
This is being narrated first person from Jaina. Of course it's not going to have positive things to say about the Horde.
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Yeah that's what I thought. So why does the Horde find him and his ship in the middle of the Great Sea, not in Baradin Bay?

Last edited by Asterisk; 05-21-2018 at 06:22 PM..
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  #5455  
Old 05-21-2018, 06:24 PM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by Commander Rotal View Post
I get an unreasonable amount of joy out of this. Kruul drove me crazy over the last 24 hours.

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  #5456  
Old 05-21-2018, 06:35 PM
Mungo Mungo is offline

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Originally Posted by Asterisk View Post
This is being narrated first person from Jaina. Of course it's not going to have positive things to say about the Horde.
Naturally. But everything I've read or experienced(please correct me if I'm wrong) over the years points to Azeroth would have been a much happier place if the orcs had been exterminated at the end of the 3rd war. The AU(in which Thrall dies as an infant) shown in 'Twilight of the Aspects' shows a Lordaeron united and happy with the rest of the Alliance kingdoms(sure, Blackmoore overthrew the Menethils, but Arthas and Jaina are in exile plotting to regain the throne). So what if a small tribe of Tauren are slaughtered by centaurs in Kalimdor because Thrall is not there to help them? There's a much better group in the Broken isles, Northrend, and Pandaria. Same goes for the darkspears with the Zandalari.

I really am asking for some examples that Azeroth needed the Horde because I am very close to washing my hands of this franchise forever.
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  #5457  
Old 05-21-2018, 08:05 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by Mungo View Post
I really am asking for some examples that Azeroth needed the Horde because I am very close to washing my hands of this franchise forever.
Per canon, the Horde was essential during the neutral conflicts, the Burning Legion being the strongest mention there.
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  #5458  
Old 05-21-2018, 08:07 PM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by Insane Guy of Doom View Post
So Jaina was off fighting demons by herself during the events of Legion? That was my headcanon!
It's a simple explanation for her absence.
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  #5459  
Old 05-21-2018, 08:25 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
It's a simple explanation for her absence.
Albeit an extremely flimsy one.

Because obviously one of the world's most powerful mages should be screwing around with random demons instead of helping tip the balance in the fights that determine if the planet's doomed or not.

But hey, now we know that if we'd failed to defeat Sargeras's top brass without her, she was at least wasting her power on the Legion's twelfth-tier disposable fodder the whole time.

Last edited by ARM3481; 05-21-2018 at 08:40 PM..
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  #5460  
Old 05-21-2018, 10:05 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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The devs just didn't know what to do with Jaina for Legion. It already had Genn being the hawk to Anduin's dove with Genn having the bonus of being an actual Racial Leader.

Anyway the Horde being needed for Azeroth is just bad writing like how Batman can't kill the Joker without some cataclysm happening. Even back in the Scourge War the Horde was hardly needed as an institution compared to the Neutrals.
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  #5461  
Old 05-21-2018, 11:50 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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I know people are feeling horde guilt right now, but the whole faction doesn’t deserve to be wiped out for the actions of the orcs and Forsaken. Even then, the story beats into our heads that it’s their leadership that is the problem.

At this point, it’s more of a case of folding the horde into the Alliance.
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  #5462  
Old 05-22-2018, 12:33 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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The Horde is tainted to its core. Its Post-WW1 Germanlike "Everybody else is out to get us so we don't have to try to get along with our neighbors or do something other than WAGEEEE" national mentality prevents it from being worthy of trust and not termination. The Alliance can not be safe as long as the Horde continues to be. Harping on the leaders being the problems doesn't deflect from this since the Horde's institution selects for Blackhands (would exterminate in less than a minute the Alliance if they could) or Thralls (enablers who at best only give halfhearted acknowledgements that maybe those Alliance fellows have something to be peeved at them for, maybe).

And the Horde doesn't deserve such kindness as to be accepted. They have had plenty of opportunities to share Azeroth with the Alliance only to wage war.
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  #5463  
Old 05-22-2018, 02:39 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mungo View Post
...

...

...

How the hell am I supposed to feel proud of my faction when it's constantly shoved in our faces that Daelin was 100% completely right about the Horde and the best, most logical, and completely justified thing the Alliance could do is slaughter every single one of the horde races down to the last man, woman, and child?
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Originally Posted by Mungo View Post
Naturally. But everything I've read or experienced(please correct me if I'm wrong) over the years points to Azeroth would have been a much happier place if the orcs had been exterminated at the end of the 3rd war. The AU(in which Thrall dies as an infant) shown in 'Twilight of the Aspects' shows a Lordaeron united and happy with the rest of the Alliance kingdoms(sure, Blackmoore overthrew the Menethils, but Arthas and Jaina are in exile plotting to regain the throne). So what if a small tribe of Tauren are slaughtered by centaurs in Kalimdor because Thrall is not there to help them? There's a much better group in the Broken isles, Northrend, and Pandaria. Same goes for the darkspears with the Zandalari.

I really am asking for some examples that Azeroth needed the Horde because I am very close to washing my hands of this franchise forever.
Just a few points:
- Genocide is the crime laid down at the feet of the worst of the Horde. If the Alliance were to engage in it they’d be taking on the worst attributes of the faction they hate. When you hear Alliance fans say that the Alliance should slaughter every member of the Horde, what they’re saying is they wish the Alliance could both be as evil as they believe the Horde is and still be the pretty boy Alliance, still be good guys for it. The dogs are pointing at the wolves, saying how bad they are, and asking why they can’t be wolves too.
- You’re working with only a quarter of the picture in the Blackmoore Timeway, and you’re romanticizing it. Do you really think Lordaeron is a happy place under Blackmoore’s rule? Is institutionalized slavery a good thing? What of the myriad of other problems that Azeroth has to face?
- I would argue that the lives of the Bloodhoof and Darkspear Tribes have their own value that is not determined by comparison to some other tribe.
- I would also argue that the value of the Horde isn’t based on the quality of life of the Alliance. The Horde doesn’t exist for the Alliance’s benefit, but for that of its constituent races.

Look, I get it. Blizz’s heavy handed and rather one sided use of the villain bat is tiresome. If you need to get out, for either a break or forever, then do it. This is meant to entertain, and if it’s no longer doing it then by all means find something that does. I’m not there yet. I think there’s more fun to be had, more story to be told. I’m still looking forward to it.

If you’re looking for a reason to stay, you might look forward to the Mag’Har. Beautiful orcish customization and an into storyline that resoundingly refutes the idea that orcs need to change into something they aren’t for the sake of the Alliance.

Or, maybe roll Alliance for a change of pace. There are plenty of fun fantasies to explore there if the Horde ones no longer appeal to you.

Last edited by Menel'dirion; 05-22-2018 at 02:57 AM..
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  #5464  
Old 05-22-2018, 05:36 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Albeit an extremely flimsy one.

Because obviously one of the world's most powerful mages should be screwing around with random demons instead of helping tip the balance in the fights that determine if the planet's doomed or not.

But hey, now we know that if we'd failed to defeat Sargeras's top brass without her, she was at least wasting her power on the Legion's twelfth-tier disposable fodder the whole time.
It's not the best explanation, but it's a simple and versatile one. During Legion, we foiled several different Legion plans all over the world. Jaina's activities are a simple explanation that can be used to justify her foiling one or more of the Legion's many backup strategies.

------------------------

On the Horde, during all of Warcraft 3 I thought the Horde wasn't going the right path. They weren't forgiving the Alliance and accepting that they started two genocidal wars a decade prior. Instead, it was all about faction pride, resentment over the internment camps and the idea that they had already redeemed themselves and didn't need to apologize for the past. The natural progression of it would be hatred and the wish for reckoning.

I was kind of happy when Garrosh took over because it was the natural development of previous mentality. The Horde needed a leader like that to finally understand what path they were in. I thought Vol'jin would steer the Horde in the right direction, by acknowledging the Alliance's honor and trying to mend old wounds. Only then the faction could have been redeemed.

ButWoD came and nothing happened. And then Legion happened, Vol'jin died and the worst possible person took over. Sylvanas is worse than Garrosh, because she's willing to inspire, manipulate and lie to get others to follow her. This is a development that should never have come to be.

The logical end for this war is either the Alliance crushing the Horde or both factions being decimated by it so they can't keep fighting. There's no way the Horde can win this.

I'd rather have prefered my old idea for a faction war, in which Sylvanas is not Warchief, and the Alliance is tired of her shit and decides to move north and "contain" her (as per Varian's words at the end of SoO). The Horde would then rally to defend the forsaken, and it could lead to interesting developments (Alliance being the aggressors but having good reasons for it, Horde defending an ally and realising they have a lot to answer for).

------------------------

Changing the subject, does anyone else think BfA may lead to some kind of "WoW 2" expansion next? I was expecting this after Legion, but the BfA changes in the old world and the possible full wreckage of the factions could lead to a timeskip and a new version of the old world in the future?
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Last edited by Deicide; 05-22-2018 at 05:56 AM..
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  #5465  
Old 05-22-2018, 06:39 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
Or, maybe roll Alliance for a change of pace. There are plenty of fun fantasies to explore there if the Horde ones no longer appeal to you.
Cata 2010:

"Man, Blizzard just hates the Alliance and gives Horde the better lore."

"Why don't you just play Horde then?"

"What!? I don't want to play some boring ass evil monster faction, fuck that."

BfA 2018:

"Man, Blizzard just hates the Horde and gives Alliance the better lore."

"Why don't you just play Alliance then?"

"What!? I don't want to play some boring ass white knight Superman faction! Fuck that!"

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  #5466  
Old 05-22-2018, 06:58 AM
Mungo Mungo is offline

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Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
Just a few points:
- Genocide is the crime laid down at the feet of the worst of the Horde. If the Alliance were to engage in it they’d be taking on the worst attributes of the faction they hate. When you hear Alliance fans say that the Alliance should slaughter every member of the Horde, what they’re saying is they wish the Alliance could both be as evil as they believe the Horde is and still be the pretty boy Alliance, still be good guys for it. The dogs are pointing at the wolves, saying how bad they are, and asking why they can’t be wolves too.
- You’re working with only a quarter of the picture in the Blackmoore Timeway, and you’re romanticizing it. Do you really think Lordaeron is a happy place under Blackmoore’s rule? Is institutionalized slavery a good thing? What of the myriad of other problems that Azeroth has to face?
- I would argue that the lives of the Bloodhoof and Darkspear Tribes have their own value that is not determined by comparison to some other tribe.
- I would also argue that the value of the Horde isn’t based on the quality of life of the Alliance. The Horde doesn’t exist for the Alliance’s benefit, but for that of its constituent races.

Look, I get it. Blizz’s heavy handed and rather one sided use of the villain bat is tiresome. If you need to get out, for either a break or forever, then do it. This is meant to entertain, and if it’s no longer doing it then by all means find something that does. I’m not there yet. I think there’s more fun to be had, more story to be told. I’m still looking forward to it.

If you’re looking for a reason to stay, you might look forward to the Mag’Har. Beautiful orcish customization and an into storyline that resoundingly refutes the idea that orcs need to change into something they aren’t for the sake of the Alliance.

Or, maybe roll Alliance for a change of pace. There are plenty of fun fantasies to explore there if the Horde ones no longer appeal to you.
I kind of was playing devil's advocate for some of the arguments I'd heard and hoping someone would dispel them. A friend on the forums suggested I just ignore the lore and play the game. But then I see something that makes me think about the lore again and here we are. I really am wanting to play the mag'har orcs scenario. I have been playing the Alliance and really liked my draenei shaman but suddenly his damage dropped off at lvl 15 and I don't know what's wrong. This naturally is not the place to discuss this, and I'm sorry if I made too much of a emotional out burst.
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  #5467  
Old 05-22-2018, 07:23 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
Cata 2010:

"Man, Blizzard just hates the Alliance and gives Horde the better lore."

"Why don't you just play Horde then?"

"What!? I don't want to play some boring ass evil monster faction, fuck that."

BfA 2018:

"Man, Blizzard just hates the Horde and gives Alliance the better lore."

"Why don't you just play Alliance then?"

"What!? I don't want to play some boring ass white knight Superman faction! Fuck that!"

Lol. It’s true.

I try not to get too tied down these days.
In the days of Warcraft I and II, I was all for the Alliance, with my personal fantasy being a human mage or conjurer (I should get back to that some time). I still played both sides, with an alternate fantasy as an Ogre Mage.
Warcraft III I was somewhere between Human Paladin, Night Elven Druid and Demon Hunter. Then I fell in love with the Blood Mage in TFT. I’ve enjoyed the Blood Elf arc ever since as they delved into darkness, found salvation, and have become one of the better races in the Horde.
In Void Elves I see everything I fell in love with in that Blood Mage. Almost I’m about a third of the way to Exalted with the Argussian Reach (past Revered). Warlock coming up.
Lately I’ve found myself drawn to Orcs, and I’m really loving what’s coming with the Mag’har. I have yet to settle in a particular Orc fantasy.
Trolls have been slowly growing on me. The Zandalari Druid is probably going to be my first real foray into them.
I feel like Worgen have a lot of potential, as I’ve always liked werewolves, but I haven’t found the right class for me and Worgen yet. I’m thinking I should try Warrior.
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  #5468  
Old 05-22-2018, 07:39 AM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Originally Posted by Mungo View Post
I kind of was playing devil's advocate for some of the arguments I'd heard and hoping someone would dispel them. A friend on the forums suggested I just ignore the lore and play the game. But then I see something that makes me think about the lore again and here we are. I really am wanting to play the mag'har orcs scenario. I have been playing the Alliance and really liked my draenei shaman but suddenly his damage dropped off at lvl 15 and I don't know what's wrong. This naturally is not the place to discuss this, and I'm sorry if I made too much of a emotional out burst.
No worries and nothing to be sorry for. You feel what you feel. I don’t know if any of my counter arguments were of any use to your purpose, but I do hope I didn’t come across as too critical.
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  #5469  
Old 05-22-2018, 08:27 AM
Mungo Mungo is offline

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Originally Posted by Menel'dirion View Post
No worries and nothing to be sorry for. You feel what you feel. I don’t know if any of my counter arguments were of any use to your purpose, but I do hope I didn’t come across as too critical.
You weren't. I go onto the official forums(I really need to stop that)or reddit for upcoming news on the game, see something upsetting, and regurgitate it here in the hopes someone will refute it. I shall have to learn to refute them myself.

I let my sub run out in early January, because I didn't like how BFA was shaping up. Since then I've yo-yoed about 4 times whether to get it or not, since every time I see something totally cool, something equally awful seems to follow it up. Of course, we don't have all the information of the story yet. Maybe I'll just wait a while after release to get it.
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  #5470  
Old 05-22-2018, 10:40 AM
Reinhardt Reinhardt is offline

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The alliance does not need to genocide the horde.
The problem is not with the races but with the culture.

They need to be demilitarized and taught what horrors their forefathers committed.
Public trials Nuremberg style.
Keep a strictly defensive local militia.
And allow members of the Horde to join a unified Azeroth defence force.
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  #5471  
Old 05-22-2018, 01:47 PM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms...6926114194.pdf

Jaina comic is out.

I thought it was weak. I expected more.
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  #5472  
Old 05-22-2018, 02:35 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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We wouldn't have gotten Legion and Battle for Azeroth as we know them if the Alliance committed a purge campaign against the Forsaken and did Chevauchée in Kalimdor before arraging Garrosh's disposal. Drop all that talk of the Alliance ordering a brand new Azeroth Superfriends with the now recruited Orcs.
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  #5473  
Old 05-22-2018, 02:50 PM
Menel'dirion Menel'dirion is offline

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt View Post
The alliance does not need to genocide the horde.
The problem is not with the races but with the culture.

They need to be demilitarized and taught what horrors their forefathers committed.
Public trials Nuremberg style.
Keep a strictly defensive local militia.
And allow members of the Horde to join a unified Azeroth defence force.
So cultural emasculation......... nah. The path of Y’rel perhaps? I’m gonna day no to that.

You see, what you’re looking for is peace on Azeroth, when that is quite literally the last thing Warcraft needs, as peace on Azeroth is the End of Warcraft. Enjoy the conflict. Enjoy the twists and turns. As one problem is resolved throw yourself to the next one. Just as the Hunter is nothing without the hunt, the Alliance is nothing without the Horde and Warcraft is nothing without the War.
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  #5474  
Old 05-22-2018, 02:52 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms...6926114194.pdf

Jaina comic is out.

I thought it was weak. I expected more.
Seems weird to me that they released it now. These are supposed to be the "lead up to BfA" but there are only three comics. I would've started releasing them closer to mid June. Then again, they've got the Lords of War/Harbingers series about Teldrassil to release too.
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  #5475  
Old 05-22-2018, 03:18 PM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by Insane Guy of Doom View Post
Seems weird to me that they released it now. These are supposed to be the "lead up to BfA" but there are only three comics. I would've started releasing them closer to mid June. Then again, they've got the Lords of War/Harbingers series about Teldrassil to release too.
I wonder which next ones will be about. I guess either Sylvanas or Nathanos (or both) gets one, but what about the third one? (I hope it's not Magni...)
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