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  #3051  
Old 01-17-2018, 02:40 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Ah, gotcha. Well, then I guess you and I are at an impasse. Oh well.
Nothing new, hey?
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  #3052  
Old 01-17-2018, 02:56 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
I don't mind the "equivalent exchange", since the comunity will always complain otherwise, I just wish it was used in smarter ways. It's possible to hide the obvious exchange.
It's not always equivalent either. Teldrassil was a blatant "check the box" move, but when you compare what they appear to have shown to have in store for future development for the Forsaken and that they have said nothing about what is to happen with the Night Elves after, it's not really even.

At best, it seems to be used as a cheap (and I'd argue ineffective) means of motivating the Alliance, which I'll expand more on since I was anticipating a question on this. Why do they need Teldrassil for motivation? Did anyone forget about Cataclysm? The Forsaken invaded Gilneas unprovoked and killed Genn's son. What about Southshore and Hillsbrad? Or are the survivors of the Arathi Highlands just supposed to forget about Forsaken moves against them?

The Alliance has plenty of reason to turn the Azerite conflict into a larger war with the aim of striking a blow for these people. You can make an argument that they think they're being the good guys. The Horde at the same time can (rightly) point out that the Alliance would exterminate the Forsaken if given the chance and that they must defend themselves. You can make an argument that they are being the good guys.

You could flesh out histories from human denizens of the afflicted countries. Have Alliance players listen to and sympathize with their stories, want to restore these nations to their rightful glory - and get motivated to want to fight this war that way. You would get real human development instead of "Hordies are red, Stormwind is blue. Varian is bae, and Anduin is too".
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  #3053  
Old 01-17-2018, 03:13 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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What you still fail to realize is that the Alliance might be just turning this into a larger war to achieve its own ends, and the burning of Teldrassil might be simply a consequence.
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  #3054  
Old 01-17-2018, 03:17 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
What you still fail to realize is that the Alliance might be just turning this into a larger war to achieve its own ends, and the burning of Teldrassil might be simply a consequence.
Blizzard has explicitly said that Teldrassil happens before the Alliance goes after Lordaeron. Quoting from the linked interview:

Quote:
Some of the imagery that you'll see is the scene is with Sylvanas standing in front Teldrassil on fire. Then with the opening cinematic, that event was right before the Alliance finally says, "Okay, we've had it" before they assault Lordaeron
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/wo.../1100-6454665/

The reason for Lordaeron is very neatly defined. It does not begin with Alliance ambitions, it is yet another reaction to something that the Horde does.
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  #3055  
Old 01-17-2018, 03:20 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Blizzard has explicitly said that Teldrassil happens before the Alliance goes after Lordaeron. Quoting from the linked interview:



https://www.gamespot.com/articles/wo.../1100-6454665/

The reason for Lordaeron is very neatly defined. It does not begin with Alliance ambitions, it is yet another reaction to something that the Horde does.
Eh, that's just another stage. I am talking about the start of the war, not about the invasion of Lordaeron, which might happen quite some time after the war starts.
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  #3056  
Old 01-17-2018, 03:30 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Eh, that's just another stage. I am talking about the start of the war, not about the invasion of Lordaeron, which might happen quite some time after the war starts.
That start probably is the Azerite conflict, which has little to do either with Teldrassil or with Lordaeron. Going after either crosses the line between a very localized, purpose driven conflict to something that serves entirely different ends, and in the Horde's case, crosses a moral event horizon. The cinematics also see us returning to a Horde acts (finds the Azerite) and the Alliance reacts (regards the Horde having the Azerite as a very bad idea). It also retains the idea that Sylvanas is doing this for less than noble ends, which is fine, but again puts the Alliance in a position where it is acting in its own defense.

So the question of "who escalates"? Is pertinent here. Right now that answer is the Horde, because Blizzard is mindlessly checking the same boxes that they always do.
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  #3057  
Old 01-17-2018, 03:35 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
That start probably is the Azerite conflict, which has little to do either with Teldrassil or with Lordaeron. Going after either crosses the line between a very localized, purpose driven conflict to something that serves entirely different ends, and in the Horde's case, crosses a moral event horizon. The cinematics also see us returning to a Horde acts (finds the Azerite) and the Alliance reacts (regards the Horde having the Azerite as a very bad idea). It also retains the idea that Sylvanas is doing this for less than noble ends, which is fine, but again puts the Alliance in a position where it is acting in its own defense.

So the question of "who escalates"? Is pertinent here. Right now that answer is the Horde, because Blizzard is mindlessly checking the same boxes that they always do.
Right now, the answer is "we do not know", hence my point. And sorry, but your conjectures facts do not make, no matter how much well founded do you think they be.
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  #3058  
Old 01-17-2018, 03:47 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Right now, the answer is "we do not know", hence my point. And sorry, but your conjectures facts do not make, no matter how much well founded do you think they be.
*Shrug* One can only reasonably make predictions and infer things about the world with the facts and trends we have available. Human understanding has always and will always, with notable exception given to mathematics, be formed upon the basis of observing a thing happen over and over again, and then assuming that the same thing will happen again in the future.

It's not always correct, nor is it logically ironclad, but it's the best any of us have.
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  #3059  
Old 01-17-2018, 03:52 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
*Shrug* One can only reasonably make predictions and infer things about the world with the facts and trends we have available. Human understanding has always and will always, with notable exception given to mathematics, be formed upon the basis of observing a thing happen over and over again, and then assuming that the same thing will happen again in the future.

It's not always correct, nor is it logically ironclad, but it's the best any of us have.
There is a whole world of difference between making a grounded prediction and between treating it as a fact and being further judgmental about it. The first is logical, the second is not.
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  #3060  
Old 01-17-2018, 03:59 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
There is a whole world of difference between making a grounded prediction and between treating it as a fact and being further judgmental about it. The first is logical, the second is not.
I have made it a point to repeatedly signal that I am not treating my predictions as facts. If you believe what you're accusing me of, I have to ask if you've been paying attention.

The fact that we're having this discussion at all, where I explicitly refer to the process as being necessarily imperfect and prone to error (as all human inference based on the expectation that the future will imitate the past), should by itself indicate that, to say nothing of prior statements.
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  #3061  
Old 01-17-2018, 04:08 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
I have made it a point to repeatedly signal that I am not treating my predictions as facts. If you believe what you're accusing me of, I have to ask if you've been paying attention.
Have you? Saying the Horde does like a fact when we simply do not know yet, then saying this feels like you do not understand what are you saying.

But, uhm, we are not moving anywhere, so. Have fun with this?
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  #3062  
Old 01-17-2018, 04:18 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Have you? Saying the Horde does like a fact when we simply do not know yet, then saying this feels like you do not understand what are you saying.

But, uhm, we are not moving anywhere, so. Have fun with this?
I could see where you would claim that I didn't signal well enough. The intent of adding "right now" in that sentence was to hold open the possibility that something might change, even if I regard that possibility as unlikely given the time window and the lack of mention of other moves outside of the Azerite conflict.
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  #3063  
Old 01-17-2018, 04:38 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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Besides leveling xp for some reason being increased it looks like Blizzard messed the scaling up and heroic dungeons have normal dungeon hp/damage and vice versa. This stuff was also reported during the PTR but I guess Blizzard was in too much of a rush to make a deadline to release their time gated patch so they could have higher quarter earnings/compete with FF14's patch. If pre-orders do come the 30th and the Allied Races are released in the same unfinished state they were on the PTR I'm going to expect nothing but bad things of BFA.
Also having issues with the old raids. One shotted my way through HFC on Sunday and now on the same alt, I'm dying and really having to watch myself on the bosses.

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  #3064  
Old 01-17-2018, 06:12 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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No large territorial changes to Kalimdor? It is status quo in Kalimdor. And I am the last person you'd find liking that. If it were up to me, the whole world would burn and nations would migrate. Just like the good old days of Warcraft II. Nothing was safe.
There's this guy called Sargeras I think you'd get along with just fine.
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  #3065  
Old 01-17-2018, 06:38 PM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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I for one am glad we have a new Fojar that rambles and derails threads.
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  #3066  
Old 01-17-2018, 06:48 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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I for one am glad we have a new Fojar that rambles and derails threads.
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  #3067  
Old 01-17-2018, 07:10 PM
Hagrid Hagrid is offline

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I'm just sayin'...

Garrosh wages a war for food, lumber, territory... He's a racist. A fascist. People decry him before he's even near the throne, post little listicles about how a Basic Campfire is more apt to do his job.

Sylvanas begins harvesting the literal lifeblood of the planet for military use. Everyone is just a-okay with that.

Here's to you, Nicola and Bart.
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  #3068  
Old 01-17-2018, 07:29 PM
Asterisk Asterisk is offline

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Originally Posted by Hagrid View Post
I'm just sayin'...

Garrosh wages a war for food, lumber, territory... He's a racist. A fascist. People decry him before he's even near the throne, post little listicles about how a Basic Campfire is more apt to do his job.

Sylvanas begins harvesting the literal lifeblood of the planet for military use. Everyone is just a-okay with that.

Here's to you, Nicola and Bart.
The difference is Sylvanas has boobs.
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  #3069  
Old 01-17-2018, 07:49 PM
Mending Mending is offline

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I was gonna say.. if the forum could handle Fojar having red-colored diarrhea over L*rdaeron for a couple of years, it can handle Kyalin.

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Originally Posted by Hagrid View Post
I'm just sayin'...

Garrosh wages a war for food, lumber, territory... He's a racist. A fascist. People decry him before he's even near the throne, post little listicles about how a Basic Campfire is more apt to do his job.

Sylvanas begins harvesting the literal lifeblood of the planet for military use. Everyone is just a-okay with that.

Here's to you, Nicola and Bart.
Who's okay with it besides Forsaken fans and Gallywix?

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The difference is Sylvanas has boobs.
Do Garrosh's pierced, muscular b-cups not count for anything?
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  #3070  
Old 01-17-2018, 08:03 PM
Gurzog Gurzog is offline

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I think kyalin is proof enough that the burning of teldrassil is a good thing.
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  #3071  
Old 01-17-2018, 09:02 PM
Ma Caque Attaque Ma Caque Attaque is offline

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There must always be a Fojar.
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  #3072  
Old 01-17-2018, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
To piggyback off of what Deicide said, the Horde cinematic, taken with Varimathras's revelations in Legion, spoilers from the new book, and the fact that the Horde makes an attempt at, if not succeeds in pulling off, the greatest act of mass murder since the Third War which only then induces the Alliance to go after Lordaeron, suggest that Genn and Shaw will be 100% right that the Horde is up to no good in pursuing the Azerite as well.
I'm not entirely sure Teldrassil has a higher population density than Theramore.
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  #3073  
Old 01-18-2018, 01:29 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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There's this guy called Sargeras I think you'd get along with just fine.
I am not an in-universe character, you genious.
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  #3074  
Old 01-18-2018, 01:42 AM
rshll rshll is offline

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After watching the cinematic, I wonder, what are Sylvanas' aspirations, what's her end game? Is it killing Greymane? Apart from all that 'destroy all life' bs.

Just because she looks so absent during the feast. Like, hey demons are dead but I don't really care. I really care about...what? Is it really Greymane
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Old 01-18-2018, 02:10 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by rshll View Post
After watching the cinematic, I wonder, what are Sylvanas' aspirations, what's her end game? Is it killing Greymane? Apart from all that 'destroy all life' bs.

Just because she looks so absent during the feast. Like, hey demons are dead but I don't really care. I really care about...what? Is it really Greymane
The book prologue shows what she wants: invade Stormwind.

(BTW: I bet the both epilogue cinematics' events will also be in the novel. That Horde leader meeting seems to be a direct follow-up to the Prologue's parade. We will probably get access to her thoughts during those scenes).

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Originally Posted by Hagrid View Post
Garrosh wages a war for food, lumber, territory...
Hey, here's an idea: not wage a war.
I know Horde was having trouble with Twilight Hammer orcs posing as Horde killing night elves, but do you know what makes the situation even worse? Horde actually invading night elf lands.

Quote:
He's a racist. A fascist. People decry him before he's even near the throne, post little listicles about how a Basic Campfire is more apt to do his job.
He was a terrible choice. And he proved to be a terrible choice by acting exactly like everyone feared he would act.

Quote:
Sylvanas begins harvesting the literal lifeblood of the planet for military use. Everyone is just a-okay with that.
Horde was okay with Garrosh waging war, it was only when he started to push the other races into suicide situations that the Horde turned against him.

Same thing now. At least Sylvanas knows how to pretend to respect her subjects. At least for now.
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Last edited by Deicide; 01-18-2018 at 02:14 AM..
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