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  #5601  
Old 06-01-2018, 06:05 PM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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In fairness to Thrall, Rehgar genuinely became a better person and left Varian on good terms when last they met. Thrall fucked up more by inviting Garrosh, but he did it to try to teach Garrosh how to empathize and understand the PoV of other races and to help shape Garrosh into becoming a better leader. There were genuinely good intentions behind Thrall's decisions and to some degree he had no way of controlling what had happened at the Summit.

I'm on the fence on whether I want Thrall to come back or not. Personally I want him to come back because I think all the foibles of his leadership rest more on Blizzard's lack of being able to adequately tell a story when he was still Warchief but now that Blizzard has seen nothing but improvement, I want to see how a Horde under his leadership looks again. Though, I also know my opinion isn't a popular one and other people want to see something else.
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  #5602  
Old 06-01-2018, 07:08 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Honestly one of my biggest issues with Rehgar was that he wasn't really all that important a person. He was just some orcish shaman who owned one of many gladiatorial teams. Then suddenly he happens to become a personal advisor to the Warchief, accompanying him and Garrosh on diplomatic meetings instead of someone else in the Horde with a precedent of collaboration with the Alliance like Eitrigg or Saurfang. And yeah, he knew Varian, but frankly if anything that just meant he didn't really have anything new to prove to Varian about the trustworthiness of the Horde, because their relationship was already a known quantity by then anyway.

The overall slavery thing does remain fairly on point, though. It remains idiotic that the orcs continue to practice slavery, and not only of other races. For all intents and purposes peons are portrayed like a mentally handicapped slave class that can be abused by normal orcs on a whim, and that's pretty damned messed up.

Honestly as much as it may seem like I'm repeating myself, it all boils down to the faction system. As soon as they decided Alliance vs. Horde had to remain a thing, they've systematically used their WC1&2 roots as go-to sources for reminding us what the Alliance and Horde are about. So the orcs kept slavery around, they kept warlocks around, and they even kept clans around to fuel conflict with the Alliance in Kalimdor.

Consequently, from the time WoW started Thrall was already a relic of WC3 plopped into the middle of a Horde that was being written with one foot firmly planted back into WC2. And instead of addressing that properly, they had him break character by just passively ignoring things for years that didn't sync with his place in the Horde's story, and as he rose in prominence as a "world character" it felt unearned because instead of continuing to do the things he did to make the Horde better for itself and Azeroth during WC3, he just stood around letting the Horde go back to doing the kind of messed up stuff that made it evil before WC3.

And they could have fixed this. WoD was their chance. They could have had him stare the orcs of Draenor in the face and see just what sort of people he was really trying to civilize, with or without the blood curse involved. They could have had him see why Garrosh turned out to be so massively different from what he'd thought orcs should be. They could have had him realize he'd had his head stuck in the idealized Frostwolf picture of the Horde so long that he overlooked the fact that most orcs were never like that. They could have had him figure out what he did wrong.

Instead the players' aversion to him in Cataclysm and then the end of MoP made the devs gun-shy about using him at all, so they kept his presence to a minimum overall. A massive mistake, as it compounded the damage when he slew Garrosh because without any accompanying buildup and realization on his part, that ended up feeling unearned as well. After all of this, any attempt to restore him as Warchief will feel equally unearned, because Thrall has been an absentee character in entirely too many of the situations where he should have been present, which negatively warped the impression created whenever he did show up.

Thrall in the end came across as incompetent in large part because they dropped him into WoW, then kept writing him as if he were still in WC3. Throughout his tenure as Warchief it was like watching a character in one story reacting to events that are happening in a different story. Garrosh flips out and defies him repeatedly, and he just listlessly allows it as if it's happening to someone else. We never get an earnest "What the hell are you doing?!" for Garrosh, as he did to Grom for disobeying him and attacking the humans in Kalimdor. All of the passion and conviction bled out of him because due to gameplay, he couldn't be a stalwart champion of the things he believed before WoW; if he were, they'd have to chuck half of the stuff that justified the Horde and Alliance continuing to kill each other on sight.

In a way I want Thrall back, but at the same time I can see that him coming back now will just be one more example of payoff without proper buildup, and many players will rightly feel like he's completely undeserving of the chance to fix things. They clearly have no interest in breaking the current standard of showing us monstrous orcs in-game, then weaving a web of moral relativist bullshit out-of-game to insist that they're still noble good guys. Any Horde player who's not drinking the faction Kool-aid has been shouting to no avail, repeatedly getting stuck with heaps and heaps of villainous acts followed by an insulting "get out of jail free card" to assuage their bruised feelings and pawn off the blame on some group of NPC's.

Warchief Thrall doesn't work in that WarCraft. He can't work, because while the writers clearly believe themselves (or at least Chris Metzen sure seemed to) that Thrall is and has remained that same noble, well-meaning leader he was in WC3, his reaction (or lack thereof) to everything they write around him completely flies in the face of that. Fueling the desire for a conquering Horde that breaks and burns and destroys in order to feel relevant by necessity makes him as Warchief look like he doesn't really believe any of the things he championed in WC3. In their enthusiasm for building on the old hatreds of pre-WC3 (and whenever the faction war rears its head, it invariably reeks of Old Horde nostalgia), they gave WoW a Horde that doesn't know what to do if it isn't invading and conquering things. Because that's literally the crux of what the Horde was all about before WC3. And that wasn't Thrall's Horde. Yet despite that not being Thrall's Horde, they continued telling us it was. And worse still, they subsequently ignored or outright avoided every opportunity to address - let alone reconcile - that internalized conflict between the Horde they wanted and the leader it had.

That incompatibility led to him being increasingly despised by many because it made it seem like he was lying to them every time he espoused this or that uplifting ideal, only to see his beliefs violated by his own Horde and just shrug indifferently about it.

Last edited by ARM3481; 06-01-2018 at 07:10 PM..
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  #5603  
Old 06-01-2018, 08:07 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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No, I signed up for an honorable faction of outcasts who were treated like shit by the hypocritical and stupid Alliance (back in the early days, the Alliance had faults instead of being utterly perfect at everything).
Except that was never the case outside of bad writing and headcanon. Sure, the Alliance might have been more obviously flawed back in WC3 to Vanilla than nowadays, but the Forsaken were murderous backstabbing zombies even back in TFT, the Tauren and Jungle Trolls had no real history against the Alliance compared to the Orcs, and the Orcs were more or less Neo-Nazis.

The ending to BfA is going to be terrible when we once again hear about #NotAllHorde (I expect Anduin to tell you that) right before the Alliance just leaves.

Last edited by Cacofonix; 06-01-2018 at 08:09 PM..
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  #5604  
Old 06-01-2018, 08:25 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by Ganishka View Post
Thrall was, by practically every standard not set by edgy WCII lovers, the best Warchief. He wasn't a warmonger who wanted to throw his people into every conflict over minor skirmishes or insults, wasn't a superstitious idiot who named the most incompetent and genuinely evil leader of the Horde Warchief for no real reason (Garrosh, in his early days, at least had some redeeming qualities, unlike Sylvanas), and he came the closest to signing an actual peace treaty and ending the war.
Yet he cared more about making allegiances with dwarves than doing something about his people who were being sent to death on Alterac, Arathi and Ashenvale.
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  #5605  
Old 06-01-2018, 08:53 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Don't forget how his first appearence in canon had him threaten the Alliance for land.
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  #5606  
Old 06-01-2018, 09:54 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
Except that was never the case outside of bad writing and headcanon. Sure, the Alliance might have been more obviously flawed back in WC3 to Vanilla than nowadays, but the Forsaken were murderous backstabbing zombies even back in TFT, the Tauren and Jungle Trolls had no real history against the Alliance compared to the Orcs, and the Orcs were more or less Neo-Nazis.
Nice headcanon. The only one you got even remotely right were the Forsaken.

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The ending to BfA is going to be terrible when we once again hear about #NotAllHorde (I expect Anduin to tell you that) right before the Alliance just leaves.
So, the Horde gets fucked in the ass again, with no lube, and yet it's the poor Alliance that are the "victims" because you didn't get to exterminate an entire player faction and deprive half of the game's paying subscribers of their characters?

Also #NotAllHorde is completely accurate. If it wasn't, there would never have been a revolution against Garrosh.

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Yet he cared more about making allegiances with dwarves than doing something about his people who were being sent to death on Alterac, Arathi and Ashenvale.
You mean the storyline that isn't canon? Hell, even if it was, he could easily use that alliance with the Dwarves to make them back off of the Frostwolves.

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Don't forget how his first appearence in canon had him threaten the Alliance for land.
You mean the same Alliance that had enslaved Orcish children for the crimes of their parents? Oh, how awful of him.
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Last edited by Ganishka; 06-01-2018 at 10:02 PM..
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  #5607  
Old 06-01-2018, 09:56 PM
DerpiusMaximus DerpiusMaximus is offline

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It doesn't matter what some half-retconned, largely forgotten comic says. It doesn't matter what some blog post from 2011 says. Doesn't matter what WoD did. Doesn't matter how much Blizz ruined Thrall. Doesn't matter what proof you drudge up.

Horde players (at least those that still care about the Horde's story) have this idealized version of the Horde in their head, and we'll all be generally frustrated until Blizz goes back to that.

Less so with Thrall, but I'll never not be a Thrall fanboy - or at least a fanboy for the idealized Thrall that makes the cool quote from Orgrimmar that Fenixhart posted.
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  #5608  
Old 06-01-2018, 10:10 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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It doesn't matter what some half-retconned, largely forgotten comic says. It doesn't matter what some blog post from 2011 says. Doesn't matter what WoD did. Doesn't matter how much Blizz ruined Thrall. Doesn't matter what proof you drudge up.

Horde players (at least those that still care about the Horde's story) have this idealized version of the Horde in their head, and we'll all be generally frustrated until Blizz goes back to that.

Less so with Thrall, but I'll never not be a Thrall fanboy - or at least a fanboy for the idealized Thrall that makes the cool quote from Orgrimmar that Fenixhart posted.
You. I like you. During my great conquest of the material realm, you will be spared for last.
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  #5609  
Old 06-02-2018, 12:09 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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You mean the storyline that isn't canon? Hell, even if it was, he could easily use that alliance with the Dwarves to make them back off of the Frostwolves.
Isn't canon according to who? I can link you a good bunch of quests in which Thrall express his clear interests on making friends with dwarves.

Anyway, he could yeas make them back off. And in the meantime, Horde soldiers keep dying.
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  #5610  
Old 06-02-2018, 02:02 AM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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People have found the Kul'Tiran heritage armor set and applied it to the models. I don't care what anyone else thinks, the female KTs look absolutely fucking badass in it (need more expressive faces though. I feel like they haven't been worked on in a while, anyone else starting to think they'll come at the absolute end of BFA, close to the 9.0 pre patch?), enough to make me rethink my plans for a Warrior. Or i just level two of them...
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  #5611  
Old 06-02-2018, 06:29 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

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Originally Posted by Ganishka View Post
Nice headcanon. The only one you got even remotely right were the Forsaken.
Orcs: Non-ironically call themselves the Horde. Are led by Doomhammer's successor. Still embrace being conquerers.

Jungle Trolls: Didn't interact much with Alliance.

Tauren: Did the Alliance even know what they were?

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So, the Horde gets fucked in the ass again, with no lube, and yet it's the poor Alliance that are the "victims" because you didn't get to exterminate an entire player faction and deprive half of the game's paying subscribers of their characters?
What's with Hordies and pretending the Alliance would dump the Horde into death camps if they did anything more than lecture before making empty threats? And saying Alliance players really wish for that?

Just asking for the Horde (or Forsaken) getting suitable consequences for once. Or at least for the Alliance to look like a respectably strong force that imposes terror on the Horde instead of toothless with leadership that's disloyal to their subjects.

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Also #NotAllHorde is completely accurate. If it wasn't, there would never have been a revolution against Garrosh.
They didn't go to war against him until he started being mean to them.

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You mean the same Alliance that had enslaved Orcish children for the crimes of their parents? Oh, how awful of him.
More like the Alliance granted the Orcs mercy instead of putting them to the sword then didn't really find what to do with them that satisfied all members of the Alliance. Not helping it were Terenas' overreaches to obtain resources and other forms of support for the internment camps.

And Thrall did nothing to earn trust from the Alliance. That's the point.
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  #5612  
Old 06-02-2018, 07:33 AM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Isn't canon according to who? I can link you a good bunch of quests in which Thrall express his clear interests on making friends with dwarves.
To the Chronicle. He didn't try to save Moira, and didn't try to make friends with the Dwarves. He invaded Blackrock Spire and killed Nefarian and Dal'rend Blackhand, but it was the Alliance that killed Dagran Thaurissan for the Dwarves.

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Anyway, he could yeas make them back off. And in the meantime, Horde soldiers keep dying.
In order to prevent a few Horde soldiers dying, you would start a massive war that would kill vastly more, while the Horde is completely outmanned and outgunned? Didn't Varok Saurfang chide Garrosh for that exact level of rashness?

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Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
Orcs: Non-ironically call themselves the Horde. Are led by Doomhammer's successor. Still embrace being conquerers.

Jungle Trolls: Didn't interact much with Alliance.

Tauren: Did the Alliance even know what they were?
And this equates to the entire Horde being evil, how? Two of their three older additions didn't even know the Alliance or had no problem with them. At least until Daelin tried to commit genocide against the Darkspears just for being there.

The Orcs wouldn't have "embraced being conquerors", at least pre-WoD retcon, if Daelin hadn't created a self-fulfilling prophecy and instilling fear and hatred into a people that had actually started to mend their dislike of Humans thanks to Jaina and Theramore.


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What's with Hordies and pretending the Alliance would dump the Horde into death camps if they did anything more than lecture before making empty threats? And saying Alliance players really wish for that?
Because Alliance players whine endlessly about "Horde bias" when the Horde has been shit on for 4 expansions straight, while always whining that the Horde gets to "get away" with every crime they commit, leading one to the only logical conclusion that Alliance fanatics would only be "happy" if the other player faction were deleted from the game.

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Just asking for the Horde (or Forsaken) getting suitable consequences for once. Or at least for the Alliance to look like a respectably strong force that imposes terror on the Horde instead of toothless with leadership that's disloyal to their subjects.
They got the only "suitable consequences" the game could actually provide. Destroying every Horde city would be unfair to Horde players who, mind you, pay half of the money in subscriptions. Same with slaughtering every Horde leader.

Which is why this faction war bullshit is stupid: neither side will win, and all it does is fuel more resentment.

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They didn't go to war against him until he started being mean to them.
Ahhh, yes, that old lie. So, Cairne didn't try to assassinate Garrosh? Vol'jin didn't threaten his life and withdraw his people rather than aiding Garrosh in his conquests? BS. Garrosh merely becoming Warchief turned half of the races of the Horde against him from the start.

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And Thrall did nothing to earn trust from the Alliance. That's the point.
He negotiated using the politics that the Humans would understand. He also left when the opportunity presented itself, rather than attempt to conquer a new home. Those two things, alone, should have told the Alliance that he was different, him trying to negotiate using leverage rather than just slaughtering random villages shows that.

And then Daelin tried to exterminate every Orc for no other reason than residual butthurt from the Second War, only proving to the Orcs that they couldn't run from the Humans who sought to eradicate and imprison them.
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Last edited by Ganishka; 06-02-2018 at 08:24 AM..
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  #5613  
Old 06-02-2018, 09:25 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Because Alliance players whine endlessly about "Horde bias" when the Horde has been shit on for 4 expansions straight, while always whining that the Horde gets to "get away" with every crime they commit, leading one to the only logical conclusion that Alliance fanatics would only be "happy" if the other player faction were deleted from the game.
Of course Alliance players complain about this. This is what happens when Blizzard uses the Horde repeatedly to instigate wars and to build tension - building them up as this unstoppable bad guy that the "heroes" barely defeat but that can't be defeated truly because that would mean destroying another faction.

These problems don't come from the developers liking one faction or the other, they are structural. The dogged commitment to having every conflict framed as though it was world war two, taken with the general lack of ideas with where to take the Alliance's story in regard to what its objectives are other than "don't get killed by the Horde" is hurting both sides. To the Alliance it sucks because they're typically the ones to lose in the beginning to show how big and bad the Horde is. To the Horde it sucks because that role of being the bad guy doesn't line up with what they were sold.

You can pull this off in an RTS! Especially a Blizzard style RTS where you proceed sequentially through the missions by campaign and are made to step into the shoes of a scourge commander or a terran general. But in a game where you pick the role and the role you most identify with is going to be informed by aspects of who you are as a person? Hell no that is not going to work. You bring about the events in a Warcraft RTS. In WoW, events happen to you, and it doesn't feel like there's anything you can do to stop it. Blizzard in recent years unfortunately has not treated that concept with any particular care - and the results have been predictable.
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Old 06-02-2018, 11:14 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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To the Chronicle. He didn't try to save Moira, and didn't try to make friends with the Dwarves. He invaded Blackrock Spire and killed Nefarian and Dal'rend Blackhand, but it was the Alliance that killed Dagran Thaurissan for the Dwarves.
Chronicle is a travesty. In that same regard, according to Chronicle nobody minded the presence of a commander of the Burning Legion in the ranks of the Horde. That same Burning Legion commander was never questioned, nobody checked on what he was doing (especially Thrall, who had his people enslaved by the Legion!!!) and also didn't mind the fact that he didn't have to raise through the ranks like a normal soldier, and instead got an instant promotion.

If you want to put Chronicle in the table, things will get worse for the point you're trying to make.


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In order to prevent a few Horde soldiers dying, you would start a massive war that would kill vastly more, while the Horde is completely outmanned and outgunned? Didn't Varok Saurfang chide Garrosh for that exact level of rashness?
No. I would comment on the issues on the three fronts, Arathi, Alterac and Ashenvale. I would actively send letters to the other factions on attempts to cease fire. That's what I would do if I was Thrall and had his ideals of pacifism.

And yet, he preferred to make statements on stupid dragons.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:For_The_Horde!

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:What_the_Wind_Carries
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Old 06-02-2018, 11:36 AM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Chronicle is a travesty. In that same regard, according to Chronicle nobody minded the presence of a commander of the Burning Legion in the ranks of the Horde. That same Burning Legion commander was never questioned, nobody checked on what he was doing (especially Thrall, who had his people enslaved by the Legion!!!) and also didn't mind the fact that he didn't have to raise through the ranks like a normal soldier, and instead got an instant promotion.
Eh. We already knew about all of that, though. Sylvanas' excuse, and it was a pretty stupid one, was that she had him under her thumb.

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And yet, he preferred to make statements on stupid dragons.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:For_The_Horde!

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:What_the_Wind_Carries
You mean the dragon and pretenders that were trying to overthrow him and enslave his people to the Black Dragonflight?
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  #5616  
Old 06-02-2018, 01:31 PM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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ARM pretty much nails it, Thrall was loved for being proactive and reasonable both things which were almost certain to be lost in WoW. And so Thrall just sat around while problems pilled up making him look inactive and incompetent, terrible traits and so unlike his original showing.

Ofc many of those problems are total asspulls, like slavery. Makes no sense that Thrall would take a stand against sexism but be ok with slavery as a former gladiator himself. Or that Thrall would not have reigned in the Warsong, or even not seen the Forsaken for what they are sooner and acted and many other obvious oversights but that is deep in what if territory and so no point discussing that. We are not here to talk about a world where Thrall was properly handled by Blizz but one where his character was shat on.

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Old 06-02-2018, 02:53 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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I hope Saurfang becomes what Thrall was supposed to be.
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Old 06-02-2018, 10:15 PM
Commander Rotal Commander Rotal is offline

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I hope Saurfang becomes a Boi In Blue to REALLY piss off Faction War people.
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  #5619  
Old 06-02-2018, 11:03 PM
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Tirisfal has been updated, the mission text about the alliance controlling it does not seem to be accurate any more, it's still controlled by the Horde with no alliance NPCs at all.

https://imgur.com/a/j0pBvKv
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  #5620  
Old 06-03-2018, 12:47 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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The reason for that is because Lordaeron and Darkshore will feature World Quests.
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Old 06-03-2018, 08:21 AM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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The reason for that is because Lordaeron and Darkshore will feature World Quests.
The world quests, at least for Darkshore, take place prior to the Burning of Teldrassil. If that's the case for Tirisfal, then it won't matter anyway because this is the map for it post battle of Lordaeron.
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Old 06-03-2018, 09:09 AM
Deicide Deicide is offline

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Originally Posted by Insane Guy of Doom View Post
The world quests, at least for Darkshore, take place prior to the Burning of Teldrassil. If that's the case for Tirisfal, then it won't matter anyway because this is the map for it post battle of Lordaeron.
They’ll begin before the Burning, but I think they’ll keep going after, as Darkshore does not have terrain phasing as Tirisfal do.
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  #5623  
Old 06-03-2018, 11:11 AM
Lord Grimtale Lord Grimtale is offline

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I hope Saurfang becomes a Boi In Blue to REALLY piss off Faction War people.
Why would anyone care? I certainly wouldn't, lol.

Also anti-faction war people have become just as whiny and grating as faction war people and posts like this just prove that further.
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  #5624  
Old 06-03-2018, 12:01 PM
Ganishka Ganishka is offline

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Originally Posted by Lord Grimtale View Post
Why would anyone care? I certainly wouldn't, lol.

Also anti-faction war people have become just as whiny and grating as faction war people and posts like this just prove that further.
I just want the Faction War over to stop all of the whining at this point, to be honest. All of the faction crap slinging is giving me Cryptosporidiosis.

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Last edited by Ganishka; 06-03-2018 at 12:09 PM..
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  #5625  
Old 06-03-2018, 12:24 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Tirisfal Glades = Teldrassil
Darkshore = Silverpine

Makes sense that the starter areas are destroyed.
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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