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Old 08-15-2017, 05:45 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Before we continue with this conversation, someone should define what "Regressive Left" means, because right now there's no context to which anyone on the left can respond.
It originated as an anti-islamic view that involved sections of left wing policies that pander to islam in favor of cultural tolerance. The feminists who say Sharia law is true empowerment, for example.

Much like the alt right, its meaning expanded to include a lot of things, like ideals of cultural apropriation being bad, the idea that it takes a women to code for women, the idea that only gay men can play gay men, black VAs have to voice black characters, anti male, etc.

SJW shit. Antifa. In some cases, BLM. College campuses who want to segregate black people for their safety. The Evergreen instance where they rioted because they couldnt ban white people
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Old 08-15-2017, 05:49 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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People don't need to feel bad about Antifa or neo-nazis. They just need to do something about it. This isn't the first time political violence has happened in this country. We have had rioters on college campuses because people didn't want to hear critical opinions. Antifa has been destroying cities and someone tried to murder a bunch of Republican politicians that he didn't like. People should be against both of these groups and not just one or the another. There is no reason anyone should feel like they are part of their political team and because of that they have to make up excuses and spin doctor for them. There is no reason you have to drag your other political enemies and try to blame them for it. They are shitty people and we are letting them pretend like they are political champions.
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Old 08-15-2017, 05:58 PM
Shekinah Shekinah is offline

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Originally Posted by Cantus View Post
Before we continue with this conversation, someone should define what "Regressive Left" means, because right now there's no context to which anyone on the left can respond.
They're the people on the left who, well, regress. They cry and whine when things don't go their way, throw temper tantrums on their blogs or forums they frequent, and take selfies to show how it's all about them when people get hit by cars in Charlottesville.

The right version of this, of course, is the alt-right. They also regress, but I find the demographics are almost opposite of each other. Most people on the alt-right are around middle aged, while those on the regressive left are teenagers in some aspect. Generalizing, of course, but that's how someone who refuses to join a faction sees it.
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Old 08-15-2017, 06:30 PM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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They're the people on the left who, well, regress. They cry and whine when things don't go their way, throw temper tantrums on their blogs or forums they frequent, and take selfies to show how it's all about them when people get hit by cars in Charlottesville.

The right version of this, of course, is the alt-right. They also regress, but I find the demographics are almost opposite of each other. Most people on the alt-right are around middle aged, while those on the regressive left are teenagers in some aspect. Generalizing, of course, but that's how someone who refuses to join a faction sees it.
Make no mistake, the regressive leftist elements were in Charlottesville causing all kinds of mayhem as they always do. All one needs do is watch a video to see weapons being swung back and forth. Just like Antifa has done a dozen times up until this point and will continue to do, the left and right extremes just keep feeding off of each other here and it's going to keep escalating until these cities, counties and states stop being afraid and crack some skulls. If police had done their job at Berkley, or any of the other protests where violence broke out, the chances of the clashes at Charlottesville happening would have been drastically reduced. A lot of departments won't interfere between two clashing sides with that amount of people because the risks are high, but that's what we're supposed to do. Antifa before, and these White Supremacists should have been met on the streets and been forced to disarm if they had wanted to continue any of these rallies. When Antifa marched into gatherings, crossing barriers, they should have been met with the shields of riot police.

Everyones been getting away with this for too long.
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Old 08-15-2017, 06:41 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by Ragnahar View Post
Make no mistake, the regressive leftist elements were in Charlottesville causing all kinds of mayhem as they always do. All one needs do is watch a video to see weapons being swung back and forth. Just like Antifa has done a dozen times up until this point and will continue to do, the left and right extremes just keep feeding off of each other here and it's going to keep escalating until these cities, counties and states stop being afraid and crack some skulls. If police had done their job at Berkley, or any of the other protests where violence broke out, the chances of the clashes at Charlottesville happening would have been drastically reduced. A lot of departments won't interfere between two clashing sides with that amount of people because the risks are high, but that's what we're supposed to do. Antifa before, and these White Supremacists should have been met on the streets and been forced to disarm if they had wanted to continue any of these rallies. When Antifa marched into gatherings, crossing barriers, they should have been met with the shields of riot police.

Everyones been getting away with this for too long.
Maybe we should just let the nazis and commies duke it out.
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Old 08-15-2017, 06:55 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Maybe we should acknowledge that Antifa hasnt just been breaking shit, but actively trying to kill people by throwing glass filled with explosives and hitting people in the head with bike locks and bags of rocks, and put a fucking stop to all of it, on both sides?
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  #56057  
Old 08-15-2017, 07:00 PM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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Maybe we should just let the nazis and commies duke it out.
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  #56058  
Old 08-15-2017, 07:25 PM
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Note: The following is a personal request, user to user, not a mandate...

Granted, this is an impossible request, but can we quit using the terms "alt right" and "regressive left" when talking about violent extremists? Alt(ernative) Right is a textbook example of double-think ("it's good because it's alternative!", except we all know that's a fallacious argument) and Regressive Left is a textbook example of a misnomer. Regressive implies someone returning to a previous state, one which history has shown never existed (and to be clear, never should).

Extremist is the proper term here, because these are individuals advocating for segregated societies where their in-group is the dominant power.

Now, if we want to get specific, sure we should say "Extremists on the Right like Nazis," or "Extremists on the Left like AntiFa," but in dropping loaded terms that don't even make sense (much less how broad and variable their coverage is) does no one a service except for those trying to feed fires of hatred.

And, I should say, we cannot make broad assumptions about how individual cultures see their rules. One person's Sharia Law is not the same as another's. Sharia Law, in and of itself, is defined as jurisprudence via interpretation of Islamic Scriptures. Just like Christianity, that means each sect has different beliefs and prohibitions. So yes, there can be a woman who falls under actual feminist lines while advocating for her sect's variant of Sharia Law. Another is so far from it that it's a parody (e.g. ISIS's variant is definitely misogynist in the extreme).

Now that doesn't mean I'm advocating for Sharia Law (I'm not in any way, shape, or form), but that we cannot take context out if we're going to talk about which sections of each side fall into extremes and which ones are within the bounds of reasonable belief.

The same should be said of those individuals misled into voting for Trump's fantasy version of America. Not all Trump voters are extremists, and hell not even all members of the Alt-Right are, although a significant number (5% or more) certainly cross the line.

In sum, we shouldn't let labels rule our interactions with each other, and by that same virtue, we shouldn't apply labels that are so broad they're incongruous from one member to the next. If we know the context, then yes we can apply appropriate labels, but this broad statements of selection are only going to divorce the thread further from discussion and just towards blind ranting at each other.
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  #56059  
Old 08-15-2017, 07:33 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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You don't want to have The Years of Lead: American edition. That is the worst you could possibly ask for.
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Old 08-15-2017, 08:09 PM
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So Trump still blames both sides? He's on the same level with Palpatine.
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Old 08-15-2017, 09:16 PM
Yakitori Yakitori is offline

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Just a quick thing.

The 'regressive left' was not meant to be a counter for the 'alt right'; that's the 'ctrl left'. The regressive thing spawned from the simple fact that a lot of what people who claim to be progressives have been pushing for are... well, regressive in nature. Like the colleges that have designated 'African-Americans only' housing because it was requested by the students effectively being self-segregation. Or how women have kinda gone from being just as capable as men, to needing all of these sweeping changes because they're suddenly too sensitive. You could even argue it's the fact that race relations in the United States have gone from looking like things were improving (whether or not they were is up for debate, of course), to... well, what we've got now, as a sign of regression.

I'm sure someone like Ruinshin can think of other, better examples, I'm trying really hard to just... not get too involved, and just build up my folder of Saber Alter and Mordred pics.

EDITED TO ADD: And yeah, I'm not surprised that Trump said that both sides have bad actors. This entire... fuckery has been building for months now, with things escalating and escalating (see: the riots at Berkeley, and how after the first time Antifa showed up and attacked people, the second protest had the protesters bringing their own weapons for defense), and it has finally started to boil over into people getting killed. And while part of me hopes this will be a wake-up call for both sides, I kinda sense it won't be. Like, at all.

Because this situation has been wined and dined, and now it's getting fucked.
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  #56062  
Old 08-15-2017, 09:20 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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  #56063  
Old 08-15-2017, 09:23 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Interesting. It looks like Robert E. Lee was against Confederate monuments.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/...ate-monuments/
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Old 08-15-2017, 09:42 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Interesting. It looks like Robert E. Lee was against Confederate monuments.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/...ate-monuments/
Yep.

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“I think it wiser,” the retired military leader wrote about a proposed Gettysburg memorial in 1869, “…not to keep open the sores of war but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife, to commit to oblivion the feelings engendered.”
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Old 08-15-2017, 09:53 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
Interesting. It looks like Robert E. Lee was against Confederate monuments.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/...ate-monuments/
Rather famously.
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  #56066  
Old 08-15-2017, 10:29 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Granted, this is an impossible request, but can we quit using the terms "alt right" and "regressive left" when talking about violent extremists? Alt(ernative) Right is a textbook example of double-think ("it's good because it's alternative!", except we all know that's a fallacious argument) and Regressive Left is a textbook example of a misnomer. Regressive implies someone returning to a previous state, one which history has shown never existed (and to be clear, never should).
Both have existed before. They are a return to form for both groups. The Republicans/Democrats in post-World War II America were a different breed than those that came before (a trend started by FDR). You're in Weimerica.

Antifa is an establishment group and the alt-right is an outside group. If you doubt this look at the way people responded to this event vs. Berkley. If you doubt that look at the way people responded to that Bernie supporter who shot up the baseball field and injured that congressman. In no way will any of this improve anytime soon.
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Old 08-15-2017, 10:43 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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When the Evergreen College was taken hostage by a bunch of students the governor didn't do anything. I think there is a lot more support for that kind of thing than there is for neo-nazis or white supremacists.
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Old 08-16-2017, 01:45 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
Interesting. It looks like Robert E. Lee was against Confederate monuments.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/...ate-monuments/
Why the fuck do people care?

Just imagine what the world could be like if ordinary people worried about actual problems, like fixing the gaps and inequalities of the societal classes, ending world hunger, making sure the world remains a hospitable place, rather than getting pissed off at statues or flags.

I saw some video of AntiFA scum demolish a statue of what I can only assume to be some Confederate general or some shit, and everybody cheered and laughed as if they actually accomplished something. Do they think they're Eastern Europeans ridding themselves off of Soviet imagery and influences throughout the 90s?
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Old 08-16-2017, 03:47 AM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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Why the fuck do people care?

Just imagine what the world could be like if ordinary people worried about actual problems, like fixing the gaps and inequalities of the societal classes, ending world hunger, making sure the world remains a hospitable place, rather than getting pissed off at statues or flags.

I saw some video of AntiFA scum demolish a statue of what I can only assume to be some Confederate general or some shit, and everybody cheered and laughed as if they actually accomplished something. Do they think they're Eastern Europeans ridding themselves off of Soviet imagery and influences throughout the 90s?
Prolly, and the ones easily recognizable on camera are getting arrested now. Hopefully they get the book thrown at them to nip that idiotic behaviour before it gets out of hand.
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Old 08-16-2017, 05:39 AM
Hagrid Hagrid is offline

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The history nerd in me reels when Morning "Trust me, I'm a Republican" Joe calls Spencer and his like Nazis. I don't support Spencer, sure, but he's in no way stood up for National Socialism. Like holy shit please just use the correct terms. You're legitimizing me calling the Antifa Bolsheviks.

...

Well, that's a good thing, actually. Let the LARP continue!
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Old 08-16-2017, 05:59 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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Prolly, and the ones easily recognizable on camera are getting arrested now. Hopefully they get the book thrown at them to nip that idiotic behaviour before it gets out of hand.
I sort of respect the extreme right movements (and any other extremists for that matter) that aren't afraid to show their faces. AntiFA are pussies hiding behind their masks, throwing molotovs into crowds. As are KKK members hiding behind their ghost cosplay, burning crosses.

Whilst it being stupid as all hell of them (as has been proven by the social ostracisation some of them now face), I prefer to know which individuals of society are extremist loose cannons. And your racists wearing their opinions on their sleeves are way better than the clean-shaven, suit-wearing scumbags that have taken over much of the political arena over here in Europe.
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Old 08-16-2017, 06:18 AM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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Originally Posted by Aneurysm View Post
I sort of respect the extreme right movements (and any other extremists for that matter) that aren't afraid to show their faces. AntiFA are pussies hiding behind their masks, throwing molotovs into crowds. As are KKK members hiding behind their ghost cosplay, burning crosses.

Whilst it being stupid as all hell of them (as has been proven by the social ostracisation some of them now face), I prefer to know which individuals of society are extremist loose cannons. And your racists wearing their opinions on their sleeves are way better than the clean-shaven, suit-wearing scumbags that have taken over much of the political arena over here in Europe.

One of many sides.
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Old 08-16-2017, 08:59 AM
Kellick Kellick is offline

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Prolly, and the ones easily recognizable on camera are getting arrested now. Hopefully they get the book thrown at them to nip that idiotic behaviour before it gets out of hand.
I might be mistaken on this, but it's my understanding that many of these people came in from out of town, and skipped town immediately after the protest knowing that arrests would surely follow, such that it might actually be difficult to carry out arrests. Granted, the fact everyone always has a camera on them these days has made it easier for people on the internet to cooperate with the police (although I still have a distaste for internet vigilantism).

I hear there's to be another rally next week, we'll see what happens then, and hopefully that one won't get out of hand.
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Old 08-16-2017, 09:29 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Why the fuck do people care?

Just imagine what the world could be like if ordinary people worried about actual problems, like fixing the gaps and inequalities of the societal classes, ending world hunger, making sure the world remains a hospitable place, rather than getting pissed off at statues or flags.

I saw some video of AntiFA scum demolish a statue of what I can only assume to be some Confederate general or some shit, and everybody cheered and laughed as if they actually accomplished something. Do they think they're Eastern Europeans ridding themselves off of Soviet imagery and influences throughout the 90s?
1. The defense for many of these white nationalists is that they're 'protecting heritage' and history and such, when it's pointed out that Lee wouldn't have even wanted the statues, then it shows these folks either don't know or don't care about the history they're supposedly protecting.

2. Yeah just imagine, they could use that time to... worry about what bathrooms people used? Or what birth control is allowed?

I'd actually argue this is connected to the societal class bit...

Look, I know it's easy to dismiss anything that doesn't result in some immediate material change as pointless frippery, but as has been pointed out the confederate statues carry a lot of symbolism, and to many people they're representative of our unwillingness to embrace racial integration and instead cling to a history where people fought for their right to keep slaves, it glorifies something repugnant and that affects our society.
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Old 08-16-2017, 09:37 AM
Ragnahar Ragnahar is offline

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I might be mistaken on this, but it's my understanding that many of these people came in from out of town, and skipped town immediately after the protest knowing that arrests would surely follow, such that it might actually be difficult to carry out arrests. Granted, the fact everyone always has a camera on them these days has made it easier for people on the internet to cooperate with the police (although I still have a distaste for internet vigilantism).

I hear there's to be another rally next week, we'll see what happens then, and hopefully that one won't get out of hand.
Unfortunately for these folks, many of them were caught pretty plainly on camera and some arrests have already been made. I don't care if people wanna protest and advocate the removal of these statues, but these people broke the law, and hopefully the video taken of it will be evidence enough for the conviction of a good many people. I'm fairly sure I saw the person who climbed the statue to place the straps over it was the one whos been charged.

I'm sure they're proud of it, and have no regrets, blah blah, but they have to be held accountable for their actions whatever they believe.
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