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  #51  
Old 02-26-2016, 10:41 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
Weren't the other tribes doing the same, at the urging of the Zandalari, post Cataclysm? Seems like preserving troll culture only matters if the preservers themselves aren't in danger.
Right, but the idea there was that Zandalar was very heavily impacted by the Shattering. The Zandalari were stuck in a position of "do we employ heinous methods or do we go extinct?" They picked the former and ran with it, up to and including throwing their lot with Lei Shen.

I for one am still interested in the state of Zandalar at this point, even if it means another troll raid.
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  #52  
Old 02-26-2016, 10:50 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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It's just weird that the shattering affected Zandalar

They sat through the Sundering.

And even if they were affected why go on a sudden conquest spree in all directions rather than regrouping or reinforcing and talking diplomatically?
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  #53  
Old 02-26-2016, 11:01 AM
Ratatosk Ratatosk is offline

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The Sundering probably didn't hit them as hard because of the war. I'd imagine the Zandalari had proper defenses set up because of the demons. Deathwing, meanwhile, was something no one expected.

Well, Zul expected it, but Rastakhan didn't believe him so wouldn't have set up defenses.
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  #54  
Old 02-26-2016, 11:02 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
It's just weird that the shattering affected Zandalar

They sat through the Sundering.
Well, to be fair the Sundering was preceded by a planetwide demonic invasion (which admittedly was a lot shorter in the novels than it should have been, to accommodate the time traveling stupidity and keep Rhonin from being a hundred when he returned to the present), so they probably had time to get their ducks in a row for something catastrophic to occur.

To most of Azeroth, the Cataclysm kind of happened out of nowhere. Rastakhan didn't initially believe Zul's foretelling, so the prophet was kinda stuck making limited preparations (i.e. the Golden Fleet) on his own as he, Drek'thar and the Twilight's Hammer cult were the only ones who really had an inkling of what was coming.
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Old 02-26-2016, 11:08 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by MisterCrow View Post
Right, but the idea there was that Zandalar was very heavily impacted by the Shattering. The Zandalari were stuck in a position of "do we employ heinous methods or do we go extinct?" They picked the former and ran with it, up to and including throwing their lot with Lei Shen.

I for one am still interested in the state of Zandalar at this point, even if it means another troll raid.
Sure, but it's still funny that, just a few months before tragedy struck them, they were berating the other trolls for giving in to desperation, only to do the same thing once they faced a catastrophe too.
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  #56  
Old 02-26-2016, 11:14 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Which is kinda weird with the elemental unrest just beforehand. That really bugs me about the whole cataclysm scenario. The elements went on a massive global panic, so they at least must have realized a second sundering was incoming. Yet the world's most shamanistic cultures were left almost completely in the dark. But the cataclysm was the result of a singular event (Deathwing going from Deepholm to Azeroth), so there's no process that would have actually harmed the elements before the shattering itself. You have the elements going on a mad wounded rampage so severe that none of them are able to tell the world what's going on, despite nothing having happened to them yet.
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  #57  
Old 02-26-2016, 11:38 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Did the Zandalari cannibalize their gods though? I mean, Jin'do the Godbreaker attempted something of the sort, but did the Zandalari?
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  #58  
Old 02-26-2016, 12:12 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Did the Zandalari cannibalize their gods though? I mean, Jin'do the Godbreaker attempted something of the sort, but did the Zandalari?
That's what's funny about the Zandalari alliance with Lei Shen: we never see the Zandalari trot out any of their own loa, or even loa champions, like the ones they sent to try and contain Hakkar the first time around. What we see in Throne of Thunder are troll champions of the Zandalari who have been empowered by Lei Shen (Jin'Rohk), a direhorn empowered by the magics of the Beast Ward (Horridon), and then what's essentially the ring of the most powerful troll warriors and witch doctors from the four tribes (Council of Elders). Even if the Zandalari aren't the kind of trolls who'd steal their loa's power (like the Amani did in ZA and like Jin'do did in ZG 2.0) or cannibalize their loa (like the Drakkari did in Zul'Drak) then it's surprising to see that they didn't have any loa champions like the ones they sent to ZG 1.0 in the first place.

Shadows of the Horde gives the sense that the loa might not be behind the Zandalari anymore, which might explain this from the lore perspective. The great sense given in the book, especially from Bwonsamdi, is that Vol'jin has got the loa's favor and the Zandalari do not.

If that's true, then it helps to explain exactly why the Zandalari are as desperate as they are, and why they've been as ineffectual at their attempts as they've been since going on the offensive.
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  #59  
Old 02-26-2016, 12:20 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Weren't the dinosaurs their equivalent of a loa champion? They infused them wih the power of their loa, iirc.

One of the name mobs also uses the power of their serpent loa, and their priests of the serpent, eagle, turtle and direhorn (?) loa still seem to have their loa's favour too.

Maybe it was just the big names that abandoned them, and the lesser loa felt like gambling? Maybe they hoped to get a better position in the pantheon, by aiding the Zandalari when Bwon and the others would not.
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  #60  
Old 02-26-2016, 12:26 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Originally Posted by MisterCrow View Post
That's what's funny about the Zandalari alliance with Lei Shen: we never see the Zandalari trot out any of their own loa, or even loa champions, like the ones they sent to try and contain Hakkar the first time around. What we see in Throne of Thunder are troll champions of the Zandalari who have been empowered by Lei Shen (Jin'Rohk), a direhorn empowered by the magics of the Beast Ward (Horridon), and then what's essentially the ring of the most powerful troll warriors and witch doctors from the four tribes (Council of Elders). Even if the Zandalari aren't the kind of trolls who'd steal their loa's power (like the Amani did in ZA and like Jin'do did in ZG 2.0) or cannibalize their loa (like the Drakkari did in Zul'Drak) then it's surprising to see that they didn't have any loa champions like the ones they sent to ZG 1.0 in the first place.

Shadows of the Horde gives the sense that the loa might not be behind the Zandalari anymore, which might explain this from the lore perspective. The great sense given in the book, especially from Bwonsamdi, is that Vol'jin has got the loa's favor and the Zandalari do not.

If that's true, then it helps to explain exactly why the Zandalari are as desperate as they are, and why they've been as ineffectual at their attempts as they've been since going on the offensive.
The Isle of Thunder says otherwise:
-There's a few zandalari on the Isle of Thunder with the title <Harbinger of the loa>
-Tu'chek and ra'kul wield a family artifact with the power of a serpent loa (likely called ksu'la)
-guardian tak'u is infused with the power of a hawk, direhorn, serpent and hydra loa
-there's NPCs called Loa Speakers around, which infuse dinosaurs with loa (Loa-infused bloodhorn, loa-infused compy),
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  #61  
Old 02-26-2016, 01:02 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Well, to be fair the Sundering was preceded by a planetwide demonic invasion (which admittedly was a lot shorter in the novels than it should have been, to accommodate the time traveling stupidity and keep Rhonin from being a hundred when he returned to the present), so they probably had time to get their ducks in a row for something catastrophic to occur.

To most of Azeroth, the Cataclysm kind of happened out of nowhere. Rastakhan didn't initially believe Zul's foretelling, so the prophet was kinda stuck making limited preparations (i.e. the Golden Fleet) on his own as he, Drek'thar and the Twilight's Hammer cult were the only ones who really had an inkling of what was coming.
Tell us more about how long a demonic invasion should last for
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  #62  
Old 02-26-2016, 01:19 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Tell us more about how long a demonic invasion should last for
With demons spreading outward from the Well and notwithstanding Sargeras arriving early and insta-killing everyone, at least several years.

Especially since before Legion giving them spaceships, most demons had to get around on foot, and the flyers basically kept pace with them rather than flying ahead and leaving the bulk of their army to catch up.
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  #63  
Old 02-26-2016, 03:48 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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With demons spreading outward from the Well and notwithstanding Sargeras arriving early and insta-killing everyone, at least several years.

Especially since before Legion giving them spaceships, most demons had to get around on foot, and the flyers basically kept pace with them rather than flying ahead and leaving the bulk of their army to catch up.
The ships may be a recent creation. They didn't have any in the Third War either.
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  #64  
Old 02-26-2016, 04:49 PM
Yorenec Yorenec is offline

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I wouldn't be surprised if Blizz says the ships have always existed and the Legion just never had a means of getting them to Azeroth before, but I hope they are a new thing. It'd show that the Legion really is evolving and coming up with new ways to conduct invasions instead of relying on the same shit that isn't working as well anymore.
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  #65  
Old 02-27-2016, 08:37 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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I wouldn't be surprised if Blizz says the ships have always existed and the Legion just never had a means of getting them to Azeroth before, but I hope they are a new thing. It'd show that the Legion really is evolving and coming up with new ways to conduct invasions instead of relying on the same shit that isn't working as well anymore.
To be fair, Kil'jaeden's corruption of the orcs and his later creation of the Scourge WERE innovations for the Legion playbook. The Legion operations in Outland (forge camps, trucking troops in through portals, etc) are probably the best examples of their standard tactics, especially since we saw that echoed in Tanaan Jungle.

Put another way, we saw the Legion innovating (i.e. destroying via manipulating a native force) without knowing what their typical tactics looked like.
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  #66  
Old 02-27-2016, 11:39 AM
Leviathon Leviathon is offline

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Originally Posted by Archdruid View Post
I think the Amani moved their capital further north at some point. Every other location is marked in about the same place as WoW, just with Zul'Aman being the outlier.
The 'Zul Aman' dot I think is just a random bot for 'Zul Aman territory' and less for an actual city. Kinda like Uldum.
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  #67  
Old 02-27-2016, 12:11 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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The ships may be a recent creation. They didn't have any in the Third War either.
Well, they kinda did. Just not those

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  #68  
Old 02-28-2016, 06:18 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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The 'Zul Aman' dot I think is just a random bot for 'Zul Aman territory' and less for an actual city. Kinda like Uldum.
I would not be so sure about it. Uldum might be simply a calling for a larger city complex and Zul'Aman might be simply a calling for an actual city, in the same vein as with Zul'Gurub and Zul'Drak. Location might not be an issue; many other dots are off with their placement (even Zul'Gurub), not to mention, as I have already pointed many times over, we might see some changes from the World of Warcraft in-game geography.
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