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  #26  
Old 02-25-2016, 01:19 PM
Whitrix Whitrix is offline

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Originally Posted by Archdruid View Post
So wasn't Zul'Drak supposed to be significantly smaller than 'Aman and 'Gurub?
It was. Population-wise. I suppose it was like our Canada and nordic countries. Tons of frozen land, few people.
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  #27  
Old 02-25-2016, 01:19 PM
Ratatosk Ratatosk is offline

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It was. Population-wise. I suppose it was like our Canada and nordic countries. Tons of frozen land, few people.
That makes sense.
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  #28  
Old 02-25-2016, 01:37 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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What I'm wondering more is what exactly happened to all the drakkari holdings. We know how the amani and gurubashi lost their heaps of land, but the only other major historical actor in Northrend are the Nerubians, but they're underground and not nearly as far to the east.
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  #29  
Old 02-25-2016, 01:38 PM
Yaskaleh Yaskaleh is offline

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Originally Posted by Archdruid View Post
So wasn't Zul'Drak supposed to be significantly smaller than 'Aman and 'Gurub?
Smaller in numbers.
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  #30  
Old 02-25-2016, 02:54 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
What I'm wondering more is what exactly happened to all the drakkari holdings. We know how the amani and gurubashi lost their heaps of land, but the only other major historical actor in Northrend are the Nerubians, but they're underground and not nearly as far to the east.
1st Lich King shenanigans.
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  #31  
Old 02-25-2016, 03:57 PM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
What I'm wondering more is what exactly happened to all the drakkari holdings. We know how the amani and gurubashi lost their heaps of land, but the only other major historical actor in Northrend are the Nerubians, but they're underground and not nearly as far to the east.
I've got to wonder how much of it got knocked off the south side of Northrend when the Sundering split things up.

Also, the night elf ruins in Crystalsong make me wonder if the kaldorei ended up engaging with the frost trolls for any period of time.

... and where are the vrykul in all this, anyhow?
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  #32  
Old 02-25-2016, 04:16 PM
Insane Guy of Doom Insane Guy of Doom is offline

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Originally Posted by MisterCrow View Post
I've got to wonder how much of it got knocked off the south side of Northrend when the Sundering split things up.

Also, the night elf ruins in Crystalsong make me wonder if the kaldorei ended up engaging with the frost trolls for any period of time.

... and where are the vrykul in all this, anyhow?
The earthen didn't start destabilizing until after the War of the Ancients (unless the earthen who fought there were supposed to be the curse resistant ones from Ulduar), so the vrykul were probably still stone vrykul doing whatever the titan keepers were having them do.
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  #33  
Old 02-25-2016, 04:16 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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It's also possible that conditions on the newly created coastlines from the Sundering were less than hospitable at first, leading the trolls to pull inland the way the night elves withdrew to Hyjal. The Drakkari were never as numerous or powerful as the Amani or Gurubashi, so they wouldn't have necessarily managed to successfully spread across Northrend again. Especially since the old layout of the continent might have originally allowed them to spread across the proto-Northrend region without having to go into the Storm Peaks or Dragonblight, both of which are more rugged and desolate than modern Zul'Drak.

Of course, they also could have already been driven into Zul'Drak proper by the kaldorei expansion; without a pre-Sundering map of ancient Kalimdor at the height of the night elves' empire, there's no telling just how much land the trolls actually lost during that time period.

Last edited by ARM3481; 02-25-2016 at 04:21 PM..
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  #34  
Old 02-25-2016, 04:37 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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The Curse of Flesh happened more than 15k years before now, so more than 5 thousand years before the Sundering. The earthen seen during the WotA are actually the Series Two.

As for the vrykul, I imagine at that time they don't hold much land and stick to the Titan's holdings. I imagine they expand their Kingdom after the diminishing of the Drakkari.

Wheres the Azuremyst Isles in this, though?
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  #35  
Old 02-25-2016, 04:46 PM
Ratatosk Ratatosk is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Insane Guy of Doom View Post
The earthen didn't start destabilizing until after the War of the Ancients (unless the earthen who fought there were supposed to be the curse resistant ones from Ulduar), so the vrykul were probably still stone vrykul doing whatever the titan keepers were having them do.
The Vrykul gave birth to Humans 15,000 years ago according to the Howling Fjord quests. They should be somewhere in the Drakkari land on this map, which lends credence to the idea that it's like Canada: technically Zul'Drak had a lot of territory, but most of it wasn't actually inhabited by the Trolls.
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  #36  
Old 02-25-2016, 04:51 PM
Yorenec Yorenec is offline

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I prefer the idea that there are some areas just non-existent anymore. Everything on the map being a place that currently exists is meh.

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Eh, then I guess it's an unnamed swamp.

Would love for these areas to get lore and stories and names.
I speculated on it just being some unnamed swamp that doesn't exist anymore but it probably is Black Morass as shown on Marthen's map.

I do really like that it's just out of Gurubashi territory though. Like it was such a shithole filled with crocolisks and giant tarantulas that not even trolls want to live there.
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  #37  
Old 02-25-2016, 04:52 PM
Ratatosk Ratatosk is offline

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Well yeah, obviously a lot of it got sunk and doesn't exist anymore, but the stuff we still have today has to be somewhere on the map.
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  #38  
Old 02-25-2016, 04:56 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Originally Posted by Archdruid View Post
The Vrykul gave birth to Humans 15,000 years ago according to the Howling Fjord quests. They should be somewhere in the Drakkari land on this map, which lends credence to the idea that it's like Canada: technically Zul'Drak had a lot of territory, but most of it wasn't actually inhabited by the Trolls.
So Ice Trolls are literally the worst breed, and should be purged?
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  #39  
Old 02-25-2016, 05:43 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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So Ice Trolls are literally the worst breed, and should be purged?
Apparently they were so savage that they were cast out from the Amani, who were cast out from Zandalar because they were too savage.

So savage^2.

But yeah, I hope to learn about the places that don't exist anymore!
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  #40  
Old 02-26-2016, 04:20 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Alright, here is the rest. Some thing might be a bit off, but I would say it fits in general. Also, my calculations left me with 64 % lost during the Sundering, using this disposition, that is. Not 80 %, but not that far off either.

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  #41  
Old 02-26-2016, 08:11 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Alright, here is the rest. Some thing might be a bit off, but I would say it fits in general. Also, my calculations left me with 64 % lost during the Sundering, using this disposition, that is. Not 80 %, but not that far off either.
There's still a non-trivial amount of material to account for, though.

In terms of territory that we should be able to map out from existing material, there's the Broken Isles, Vashj'ir, Kezan, and the Lost Isles.

In terms of territory that we know about but don't have existing material for comparison, there's the exact disposition of Zandalar and Tel'Abim.

And given the explanation that Gul'dan only raised the Broken Shore (and the rest of the BI territory has just been ignored for 10k years) there's no telling how much more of this territory Blizzard could choose to deploy in the future.

I guess my point is this: great work Marthen but there's definitely more to be done. ^_^
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  #42  
Old 02-26-2016, 08:56 AM
Cemotucu Cemotucu is offline

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Great work, Marthen. Though Kalimdor's map should be expanded in the case of Silithus to the west and to the southwest in the case of Feralas in order to include Sardor Isle and Isle of Dread (both clearly delimited by three rivers).
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  #43  
Old 02-26-2016, 09:07 AM
Yorenec Yorenec is offline

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I can dig the idea that Stranglethorn is probably like roughly the size of Florida in lore and then pre-Sundering it was almost twice that. Might not be true but that's what I want to think.
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  #44  
Old 02-26-2016, 09:23 AM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Originally Posted by Ethenil View Post
Apparently they were so savage that they were cast out from the Amani, who were cast out from Zandalar because they were too savage.
Not exactly. From Shadows of the Horde the Amani and Gurubashi tribes both chose to leave Zandalar, wishing to build their own empires through conquest after the Zandalari had become content with their own holdings and lost interest in expanding them.

The Zandalari were fine with them dong so, as they knew the "lesser" tribes would still come back to them with tribute, allowing them to benefit from the sacrificial offerings of the Twin Empires without having to engage in expansionist wars and conquest themselves.

The ice trolls, however, were indeed outcast from the Amani for being too brutal and violent. Makes me wonder if it was just a generalized cultural "thing" about those particular tribes that offended the Amani, or if there was some sort of specific event like a civil war or attempted coup that led to their exile.

Last edited by ARM3481; 02-26-2016 at 09:27 AM..
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  #45  
Old 02-26-2016, 09:33 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Where would you guys place the Azuremyst Isles?
Also, I figured the Thundering Mountain would be the Throne of Thunder place, and Mogu'Shan Vaults would be Kun Lai.
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  #46  
Old 02-26-2016, 09:35 AM
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Little sad nothing seems to have come from "Razzashi" bits and bobs scattered around during old ZG, but oh well.
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  #47  
Old 02-26-2016, 09:40 AM
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I feel like your guess for Pandaria is too far west, Marthen. The Thundering Mountain is Isle of Thunder, not Kun-Lai Summit. Krasarang's delta is probably the one a bit further east than the one you chose; I'd say the delta where you put Krasarang is probably actually that mess of islands in southwest Dread Wastes.
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  #48  
Old 02-26-2016, 09:57 AM
MisterCrow MisterCrow is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Not exactly. From Shadows of the Horde the Amani and Gurubashi tribes both chose to leave Zandalar, wishing to build their own empires through conquest after the Zandalari had become content with their own holdings and lost interest in expanding them.

The Zandalari were fine with them dong so, as they knew the "lesser" tribes would still come back to them with tribute, allowing them to benefit from the sacrificial offerings of the Twin Empires without having to engage in expansionist wars and conquest themselves.

The ice trolls, however, were indeed outcast from the Amani for being too brutal and violent. Makes me wonder if it was just a generalized cultural "thing" about those particular tribes that offended the Amani, or if there was some sort of specific event like a civil war or attempted coup that instigated their exile.
It might be notable to point out that the Drakkari were the ones who actually cannibalized their loa. So there's a level of extremity there that the Drakkari were willing to engage that the Zandalari found heretical. It stands to reason that the Drakkari may have done something similarly profane in the past that led to their being cast out.
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  #49  
Old 02-26-2016, 10:00 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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There's still a non-trivial amount of material to account for, though.

In terms of territory that we should be able to map out from existing material, there's the Broken Isles, Vashj'ir, Kezan, and the Lost Isles.

In terms of territory that we know about but don't have existing material for comparison, there's the exact disposition of Zandalar and Tel'Abim.

And given the explanation that Gul'dan only raised the Broken Shore (and the rest of the BI territory has just been ignored for 10k years) there's no telling how much more of this territory Blizzard could choose to deploy in the future.

I guess my point is this: great work Marthen but there's definitely more to be done. ^_^
Well, the problem with all the islands is we do not know their exact size compared to the continents. Using the World of Warcraft map might be often tricky, as the islands often have to be blown out of proportion due to the necessities of game design. A prime example would be Tol Barad; an island told to sit in Baradin Bay, yet one that would not fit it, for it had to be massively enlarged.

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Where would you guys place the Azuremyst Isles?
Also, I figured the Thundering Mountain would be the Throne of Thunder place, and Mogu'Shan Vaults would be Kun Lai.
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I feel like your guess for Pandaria is too far west, Marthen. The Thundering Mountain is Isle of Thunder, not Kun-Lai Summit. Krasarang's delta is probably the one a bit further east than the one you chose; I'd say the delta where you put Krasarang is probably actually that mess of islands in southwest Dread Wastes.
I do not believe so. Kun-Lai should consist of the highest mountains in the region, plus it all lines up better that way. I would say those dots are simply bit off (they are so in other cases as well, such as ZulGurub). As for the Thundering Mountain, I would say it might have been a part of Kun-Lai (northwestern part) before the Sundering, which is why I actually drawn Kun-Lai to end right south of that Thundering Mountain dot.
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  #50  
Old 02-26-2016, 10:24 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Originally Posted by MisterCrow View Post
It might be notable to point out that the Drakkari were the ones who actually cannibalized their loa. So there's a level of extremity there that the Drakkari were willing to engage that the Zandalari found heretical. It stands to reason that the Drakkari may have done something similarly profane in the past that led to their being cast out.
Weren't the other tribes doing the same, at the urging of the Zandalari, post Cataclysm? Seems like preserving troll culture only matters if the preservers themselves aren't in danger.
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