Scrolls of Lore Forums  

Go Back   Scrolls of Lore Forums > WarCraft Discussion > WarCraft RTS Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old 05-31-2019, 04:40 AM
Lucifer Lucifer is offline

Wisp
Lucifer's Avatar
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 6

Default

I feel somewhat disappointed that they didn‘t rework the story of the Stratholm mission. If memory serves right, Mal‘Ganis’ still attacks with necromancers, which makes the whole reasoning behind Arthas‘ massacre a little bit pointless.
Reply With Quote
  #102  
Old 05-31-2019, 08:39 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,487

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucifer View Post
I feel somewhat disappointed that they didn‘t rework the story of the Stratholm mission. If memory serves right, Mal‘Ganis’ still attacks with necromancers, which makes the whole reasoning behind Arthas‘ massacre a little bit pointless.
Well the city still burns so it's not as if the corpses just lay around to be raised, they're destroyed before Mal'ganis has time to raise most of them.
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #103  
Old 05-31-2019, 09:12 AM
Lucifer Lucifer is offline

Wisp
Lucifer's Avatar
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 6

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
Well the city still burns so it's not as if the corpses just lay around to be raised, they're destroyed before Mal'ganis has time to raise most of them.
Counterpoint: The burning skeleton archer unit from the Human mission
Reply With Quote
  #104  
Old 05-31-2019, 09:49 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,487

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucifer View Post
Counterpoint: The burning skeleton archer unit from the Human mission
yeah but then we get into funky magic logistics blizz never set in stone, like how hard it is to raise a corpse from bone shards and how much harder it is to raise 'fire' based undead or w/e
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #105  
Old 06-05-2019, 07:02 AM
BoxCrayonTales BoxCrayonTales is offline

Faerie Dragon
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 132

Default

The changes seem to be mostly cosmetic. They haven't given the impression that they are going to dramatically alter the mission structure of the campaigns. It would be interesting to see WC3 remade with all the bells and whistles seen in SC2 like side missions and research points and such, but that would probably be far more expensive.

I'm more interested in the precedent that this sets for future installments of Warcraft and Starcraft.

SC2 makes revenue mostly through DLC like skins and co-op commanders. It is entirely possible that WC3R might adopt a similar model. Most of their current games are designed to make long-term profits through DLC, since microtransactions and such are the big thing in video game development right now. (As a proponent of the "video games can be art" school of thought, I find the whole thing quite awful.)

From there, it is entirely possible that Blizzard might remake old games like WC1, WC2 and SC1. Not remaster, not remaster with minor tweaks, not faithfully translate into the new engine, but completely remake as DLC for the standards set by SC2 and WC3R.

WC1 and WC2 are pretty lackluster compared to WC3. You can see a huge difference when playing the WC3 custom campaign remakes. Any official remakes would probably be dramatically different and similar only in the broadest of terms. For one thing, the remakes would probably feature a cast of characters similar to WC3 and their interactions would provide all the drama and such that is mentioned in Warcraft Chronicles. Yeah, I imagine that Warcraft Chronicles would be used as the outline for any remake stories.

The SC1/BW remake is a complete unknown. Starcraft hasn't had any kind of Chronicles book released to clean up the numerous plot holes and continuity errors that afflict the story. Comparing the SC1 manual, SC1 game script, BW game script, promotional materials, developer interviews, etc it becomes quite clear that SC had a hugely tumultuous development history that resulted in a meandering and disjointed story.

A remake could fix those problems, but considering this is Blizzard we're talking about the resulting story will still be pretty terrible on its own merits and introduce a bunch of wholly new inconsistencies. Taking the plot outline of SC1/BW and then expanding each campaign into thirty missions a la SC2 (for a total of 180 missions) would only highlight the fact that Blizzard is terrible at writing stories. I can't even imagine how they would expand the plot of SC1/BW to cover 180 missions worth of material. I could try predicting, but given that Blizzard sets new lows for stupidity I don't think my predictions would be particularly accurate given that I almost certainly smarter than Blizzard.

Episode 1 might try to work in Tassadar as a character to explain his alliance with Raynor, perhaps as a side mini-campaign similar to the Zeratul missions in SC2. Episode 2 will probably include a side mini-campaign explaining what Tassadar, Raynor and Fenix were doing at the time; I have no idea how they would expand upon the zerg characters, though I expect that the writers will make Kerry the main character and worship her mary sueness, and Amon/Duran will probably be shoehorned in somehow. Episode 3 would need to provide a lot of exposition on the protoss since they are extremely boring and their SC2 campaign was heavily criticized by critics due to their horrible blandness since they are dead-eyed zombies that speak in melodramatic reading.

BW is where bigger problems arise, since the BW plot relies on numerous horrible plot holes, plot contrivances, and other bad writing. The temple of Shakuras, the two crystals, the second overmind, Kerry having ridiculous plot armor, DuGalle betraying his childhood friend for a known distrusted defector, etc. Whenever later Blizzard materials try to recap BW, they always gloss over the plot holes because there is no way to explain those.

Honestly, I can't bring myself to care about Blizzard stories since they're so bad. I have much more interest in discussing fan-fiction where the quality of writing is generally much higher (not saying much, I know).
Reply With Quote
  #106  
Old 06-06-2019, 12:32 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

Site Staff - Moderator
Aldrius's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,025

Default

Quote:
The changes seem to be mostly cosmetic. They haven't given the impression that they are going to dramatically alter the mission structure of the campaigns. It would be interesting to see WC3 remade with all the bells and whistles seen in SC2 like side missions and research points and such, but that would probably be far more expensive.
I mean honestly that system comes with as many downsides as it does upsides anyway, and encourages a really bad mission layout. StarCraft 2's customisation options kind of give you the illusion of choice, but ultimately it winds up making your unit roster feel kinda bloated and walls some important options behind customisation choices.

I just think the whole thing didn't wind up working especially well (outside of MAYBE Wings of Liberty's system which just provides you with SO MUCH control). And WarCraft 3 had a much better and more efficient customisation system with heroes & items anyway. And the micro is more interesting so things like side objectives and whatnot are more captivating than... basically just an added difficulty component.

Quote:
The SC1/BW remake is a complete unknown. Starcraft hasn't had any kind of Chronicles book released to clean up the numerous plot holes and continuity errors that afflict the story. Comparing the SC1 manual, SC1 game script, BW game script, promotional materials, developer interviews, etc it becomes quite clear that SC had a hugely tumultuous development history that resulted in a meandering and disjointed story.
I mean, I don't agree necessarily. The core narrative is pretty coherent overall. Most of the plot holes people point out are usually because people want EVERY LITTLE DETAIL explained or want perfect coherency (Which isn't as important as emotional impact to my mind). Or they just hate Kerrigan and think she's obnoxious so she SHOULD be punished.

The Iron Fist is mostly pretty incoherent, because a lot of the shit Dugalle and Stukov do is horribly (or just not) explained, but the emotional beats are really strong and everything that gets set up pays off.

But honestly, outside of maybe the Founding of Durotar and some weird stuff in the Blood Elf campaign (the whole second half is bizarre), but I think beat for beat, Frozen Throne is easily the strongest campaign series Blizzard has ever done. Both in terms of gameplay, story, and how the two are integrated into one another. The map design is amazing.

I'm disappointed that they sort of seem to be following the paradigms of StarCraft 2 here. Orchestrated attack waves that the player is warned about, no enemy base to destroy, the sort of intense, rushed feeling of combat that isn't suited to an RTS *at all*.

I hope I'm wrong, but I imagine I'm not.
__________________
"The Demons did their job well. You creatures are as reckless and bloodthirsty as they ever were."
Reply With Quote
  #107  
Old 06-06-2019, 12:12 PM
BoxCrayonTales BoxCrayonTales is offline

Faerie Dragon
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 132

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
I mean, I don't agree necessarily. The core narrative is pretty coherent overall. Most of the plot holes people point out are usually because people want EVERY LITTLE DETAIL explained or want perfect coherency (Which isn't as important as emotional impact to my mind). Or they just hate Kerrigan and think she's obnoxious so she SHOULD be punished.

The Iron Fist is mostly pretty incoherent, because a lot of the shit Dugalle and Stukov do is horribly (or just not) explained, but the emotional beats are really strong and everything that gets set up pays off.
BW is where the plot holes get obvious, but SC1 does have some.

The SC1 manual setup one thing, but the game's execution feels like another. It is obviously plot-driven and numerous narrative shortcuts were taken by Metzen to force the plot in a particular direction. Metzen also seems to have forgotten what he wrote, or interpreted in an idiosyncratic way.

Ask yourself: If you were in charge of writing the plot of Starcraft back in 1998 instead of Metzen, then do you think your plot would have turned out the same way? (Assume you only have the manual to work with and have no knowledge of the final game as released in reality.)

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't do the same thing at all. I would never have come up with the psi-emitter, and even if I did it wouldn't have worked since the zerg would know it is a trap. I wouldn't have left the terran sector behind, either, because there's no good way to keep terrans relevant in the apocalyptic galactic war the manual teased. I'd go something like: the zerg are invading the terran worlds and abducting people for their experiments, the terrans are trying to resist both the aliens and rebellions, the protoss under tassadar are trying to rescue the terrans while those under aldaris are callous. Trying to make the campaigns linear seems nonsensical to me, since I couldn't contrive a way to maintain player investment, so I'd probably make them occur concurrently. Each campaign might very well take place on a separate planet. That way, each campaign could dedicate its writing entirely to itself without worrying about the others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
But honestly, outside of maybe the Founding of Durotar and some weird stuff in the Blood Elf campaign (the whole second half is bizarre), but I think beat for beat, Frozen Throne is easily the strongest campaign series Blizzard has ever done. Both in terms of gameplay, story, and how the two are integrated into one another. The map design is amazing.

I'm disappointed that they sort of seem to be following the paradigms of StarCraft 2 here. Orchestrated attack waves that the player is warned about, no enemy base to destroy, the sort of intense, rushed feeling of combat that isn't suited to an RTS *at all*.

I hope I'm wrong, but I imagine I'm not.
The RTS genre has room for a variety of sub-genres, like traditional base building, MOBA and 4X/RTS hybrids like Total War.
Reply With Quote
  #108  
Old 06-06-2019, 02:07 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

Site Staff - Moderator
Aldrius's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,025

Default

The manual should inform the game, not the other way around I think. I can't say I've poured over it in a really long time. But I tend to prefer the more character and faction driven stuff that's in the game to the sort of vague world-building and fantasy-esque stuff that's in the manual. Everything that's important is reiterated in the game for the most part.

And sure, there's more than one way to do an RTS but the way that Blizzard has always done RTS story-driven campaigns is with them being a bit less intense, letting you take your time, letting you explore. Needing to scout, needing to use support units.

WarCraft 3 is primarily made up of destroy the enemy base missions, sure. And apparently that's a problem, but what's always separated the missions in WC3 (particularly tFT) is what you have access to, and what you're trying to do. The undead campaign for example contains: a mission where you can only use banshees, a mission where you're given a head start to destroy the enemy bases (copied from Brood War, but it's a good concept and it's a different game so whatever) a mission where you need to do point control and guard four totally separate points, but the game gives you time to actually claim points and lets you reclaim them; where the challenge comes from dealing with Vashj and Kael flanking you rather than constantly being rushed by Illidan. Whereas a lot of the SC2 examples constantly put you on the back foot.

I also think all of those WC3 examples have much stronger STORY connections to their objectives than SC2 does. That banshee mission makes you feel like you're disadvantage, like you're fighting against impossible odds after reclaiming your free will. The obelisk mission feels like an epic struggle between two power house characters who are at their final confrontation. The story isn't told just through dialogue and action, but what you have to do as part of the gameplay.

StarCraft 2 doesn't really have that so much. The missions are generally just arcade mission style "here's a unique goal". Rather than an attempt to integrate them into a narrative drive of the mission (and granted, most of the missions don't HAVE narrative goals in of themselves, but that's another totally separate misstep on Blizzard's part). There's a few exceptions, but there aren't very many.

In addition, the way StarCraft 2 did it's mission structure gave you a lot less control over how to approach a mission because the mission objectives are so specific usually. Or you have some sort of literal or soft timer. Which just makes them feel so same-y. And definitely in every mission of Heart of the Swarm (Except the last one) and almost every mission of Legacy of the Void this is the case.

It's just so on-rails, it's not as fun. And it SEEMS like, based on the preview of the Culling that's the direction they MIGHT be taking it in.
__________________
"The Demons did their job well. You creatures are as reckless and bloodthirsty as they ever were."

Last edited by Aldrius; 06-06-2019 at 02:34 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #109  
Old 06-06-2019, 09:35 PM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

Ranger
Cacofonix's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 302

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
Or they just hate Kerrigan and think she's obnoxious so she SHOULD be punished.
Is there a problem with that?
Reply With Quote
  #110  
Old 06-06-2019, 10:41 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

Loremaster
ARM3481's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,561

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
I mean, I don't agree necessarily. The core narrative is pretty coherent overall. Most of the plot holes people point out are usually because people want EVERY LITTLE DETAIL explained or want perfect coherency (Which isn't as important as emotional impact to my mind). Or they just hate Kerrigan and think she's obnoxious so she SHOULD be punished.
The funny thing is, some of those plotholes - which, properly address, needn't have remained so - are improperly addressed in SC2.

The problem being, it's not really even a proper retconning (which, for all its associated negative connotations, isn't necessarily by definition a bad thing in and of itself.) A proper retconning can seem ridiculous in some cases, but technically should still be reconcilable with what we knew before.

Rather than properly retroactive continuity, SC2 employed outright revisionist continuity. Questions that arose and lingered from SC1 - for instance, "why did the Overmind just dump its whole plan to use Kerrigan as a counter to protoss psionics simply because it found out the physical location of Aiur?" - remained ignored in BW, yet were address messily by SC2 with the whole "that was never really the Overmind's plan for her at all" business.

Except it was the Overmind's plan, and objectively so. This wasn't a case of omitted backstory we finally found out about in SC2; if it had been, then it would be a proper retcon. No, it was an outright contradictory rewrite because the SC1 manual had rather thoroughly and solidly addressed the Overmind's motivations and plans going into the story, as per a third party, omniscient, non-invested narration. "Word of God" as one would say. We knew what the Overmind was after, how it intended to get it, and what humanity's (i.e. Kerrigan's) role in the plan was to be, and that was never in any way whatsoever framed in the context as coming from an unreliable or inaccurate source.

Even the psi emitters played into it. If one examines the storyline it becomes a rather pointed and overt thing that after Tarsonis, the psi emitters ceased to be a factor, replaced instead by the psi disruptor in Brood War. Funny that such a thing wouldn't be used again in BW, which was in effect about the war to determine who will control the Swarm. Devices that can outright attract and redirect the zerg en masse would be a huge game-changer in such a conflict, yet they don't appear again.

Why? Because the reality of what they were doing actually excluded them from working, and it made sense. While Mengsk didn't know, and the Confederacy didn't know, we players would know that the psi emitters were never truly doing what they outwardly seemed to do. The terrans all thought the zerg were basically feral - albeit clever - animals, having never interacted with any of the sapient agencies behind the Swarm, but we knew otherwise. We knew the zerg weren't mindless, and that everything they were doing was according to a plan. That the zerg weren't just psionic-sensitive beasts rampantly chasing after the emitters' signals out of instinct. That they were doing it because as per the plan that would eventually lead to the infestation of Kerrigan, on each planet where an emitter was activated the Overmind was sending its broods after what it believed to be evidence of enormously powerful human psychics, with the intent of assimilating these psychics to bolster the swarm's own power for the inevitable confrontation with the protoss.

So naturally the emitters ceased to be a factor in the story after SC1 because without the Overmind targeting their signals for its established calculated reasons, the feral Swarm wouldn't have had a reason to be attracted by them any more.

But then, as per the standard of ignoring that whole segment of zerg backstory, SC2's Nova missions bring the emitters back and have them operating as if the terran's early assumptions about the zerg - assumptions the SC1 manual had soundly established as erroneous before the game even started - were actually spot-on and the zerg were just dumb animals blindly chasing anything with a big, juicy psionic signal.
Reply With Quote
  #111  
Old 06-07-2019, 12:09 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

Site Staff - Moderator
Aldrius's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,025

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
Is there a problem with that?
Well it's subjective, it's not an objective complaint about the plot. But I'm gonna try not going down that rabbit hole again.

Mainly, I think the issues with Kerrigan's "plot armour" come down to presentation. Zeratul should probably realise that Raszagal is under Kerrigan's control, Dugalle should probably recognise that while Stukov betrayed him, it wasn't done for malicious reasons, Raynor, Mengsk and Fenix should likely realize or at least not be so surprised that Kerrigan betrays them on Korhal.

But all of these things are pretty dubious because Kerrigan and Raszagal act super shady in The Stand, Stukov is a super charming and genuine guy in The Iron Fist, and Kerrigan in The Queen of Blades acts super smug and unhelpful and offers no reassurances that she doesn't intend to just flat out betray her allies. With Mengsk and Raynor basically saying they're willing to work with her to get what they want. Which I accept and think is perfectly logical, but I do totally get why someone wouldn't.

But these are all fine plot points in of themselves I think. Dugalle's morals and ethics driving him to suicide is a good story. Zeratul being forced to kill his mother figure because she's old and corrupted by Kerrigan is really tragic too, Mengsk getting bested by a woman he left to die

I wish there was MORE of it and that it was presented a little more elegantly, but I also think that Brood War came out when Blizzard was still figuring out how narrative works in an RTS game. I think a lot of the themes and story ideas wind up being reiterated in WC3 in various ways and are much more refined and better presented there.

Quote:
Rather than properly retroactive continuity, SC2 employed outright revisionist continuity. Questions that arose and lingered from SC1 - for instance, "why did the Overmind just dump its whole plan to use Kerrigan as a counter to protoss psionics simply because it found out the physical location of Aiur?" - remained ignored in BW, yet were address messily by SC2 with the whole "that was never really the Overmind's plan for her at all" business.
And basically I think there IS a perfectly logical explanation for that anyway. She was left behind to hunt down the Dark Templar & Tassadar -- who are Protoss and are absolutely a massive threat. Plus the whole "I have left to her the greatness of her spirit" thing. This is what Kerrigan was choosing to do.

Again, just... kinda iffy presentation. I dunno how you do it right with how SC presented it's story, though. That sort of awkward "I'm doing this nonsensical thing for a reason" dialogue really bogged down SC2's script.

...I guess my whole point is I don't think Blizzard's current team rewriting SC as a remake is necessarily going to make it better. Maybe more efficient, safer, clearer. But I think a lot of the emotional impact would be lost.
__________________
"The Demons did their job well. You creatures are as reckless and bloodthirsty as they ever were."

Last edited by Aldrius; 06-07-2019 at 12:40 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #112  
Old 06-07-2019, 01:12 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

Eternal
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 4,977

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
It's just so on-rails, it's not as fun. And it SEEMS like, based on the preview of the Culling that's the direction they MIGHT be taking it in.
How so? From what I've seen in the few videos, gameplay-wise, it's a nearly exact replica. You have to kill zombies faster than Mal'ganis, have two entrances to the city, and have to defend your base from an occasional attack.
Reply With Quote
  #113  
Old 06-07-2019, 03:11 AM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

Site Staff - Moderator
Aldrius's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,025

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
How so? From what I've seen in the few videos, gameplay-wise, it's a nearly exact replica. You have to kill zombies faster than Mal'ganis, have two entrances to the city, and have to defend your base from an occasional attack.
It's obviously pre-release, so it might be unwarranted. But it just seems to me like there's no enemy base. So you can't use effective scouting or map control to see attacks coming. I just get really strong SC2 map-style vibes from it.

I'm just nervous about it.
__________________
"The Demons did their job well. You creatures are as reckless and bloodthirsty as they ever were."
Reply With Quote
  #114  
Old 06-07-2019, 06:39 AM
BoxCrayonTales BoxCrayonTales is offline

Faerie Dragon
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 132

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
Except it was the Overmind's plan, and objectively so. This wasn't a case of omitted backstory we finally found out about in SC2; if it had been, then it would be a proper retcon. No, it was an outright contradictory rewrite because the SC1 manual had rather thoroughly and solidly addressed the Overmind's motivations and plans going into the story, as per a third party, omniscient, non-invested narration. "Word of God" as one would say. We knew what the Overmind was after, how it intended to get it, and what humanity's (i.e. Kerrigan's) role in the plan was to be, and that was never in any way whatsoever framed in the context as coming from an unreliable or inaccurate source.
You can rationalize the plot points as presented, claim the sources are too vague anyway, that complaints are subjective, that we do not know the author's intent, etc. All of that is perfectly true. Subjectively speaking, I do not find that satisfying.

The Starcraft lore has had problems since its inception. The setting went through multiple rewrites along the way. The cinematic videos were produced separately from the game's script and the script had to be rewritten to account for them. The manual fluff and the game script are extremely vague about the context. There are a number of (arguable) inconsistencies within sources and between sources.

In any case, the setup as presented by the manual and the payoff are presented by the game are distinct talking points. Subjectively speaking, I did not find the game's script to be a satisfying payoff for the manual's setup.

When the manual setup the plot point about the koprulu sector being the theater of a war for the fate of the terrans, I did not imagine that this war would only show the POV of the terrans and be immediately resolved and discarded by the end of the first episode. I imagined that koprulu would be the setting of all three campaigns, maybe any number of others.

When the manual setup the plot point about the determinant, I did not imagine that it would involve capturing one person. I imagined that it would involve witnessing the zerg harvesting millions, maybe billions, of people for horrific experimentation.

When the manual setup teased the plot point about the potential apocalyptic war between the zerg and protoss, I did not imagine that it would be shown and resolved in a single episode. I imagined that it would be saved for future installments if it was ever shown at all, and that it would be much bigger and maybe span many campaigns.

I did not imagine that the only barrier was the zerg not knowing where Aiur was for unexplained contrived reasons. I imagined that the zerg knew full where where the protoss worlds were located, as the manual says as much, but needed to achieve parity by assimilating the terran's useful traits and a bazillion other logistical factors before they could launch the war.

Yes, all of that is subjective. I don't know if it was the limitations of 1998, the tumultuous development, twenty years of hindsight, or whatever, but as of right now I do not like the story of Starcraft 1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARM3481 View Post
But then, as per the standard of ignoring that whole segment of zerg backstory, SC2's Nova missions bring the emitters back and have them operating as if the terran's early assumptions about the zerg - assumptions the SC1 manual had soundly established as erroneous before the game even started - were actually spot-on and the zerg were just dumb animals blindly chasing anything with a big, juicy psionic signal.
The flaw in your argument is that the psi-emitter was shown to work this way as early as 2002 in the licensed novel Speed of Darkness. It shows the events of the mission “Desperate Alliance” from the perspective of Confederate marines executing a mission elsewhere on Mar Sara. It specifically states that a relatively weak telepath activates a psi-emitter to draw zerg forces away from Mar Sara City long enough for the Sons of Korhal to evacuate the population, as otherwise the evacuation would have failed.

This isn't the first time the zerg are portrayed this way, either. As early as 2000, the Starcraft: Uprising novel showed that isolated zerg would mindlessly obey the telepathic commands of Sarah Kerrigan. At the same time, the novel paints her as a special snowflake by being the only test subject to ever demonstrate this ability (and remember, this was before later sources would retcon Kerry as so special that she broke the Psychic Index scale). Presumably this was supposed to explain why she inexplicably took control of the zerg in Brood War, but in practice it ended up being one of the many reasons she ultimately became a Mary Sue to the point that one of the official Q&As would explicitly called her a "demigoddess."

You could rationalize these as revisionist history a la the awful Queen of Blades novel, but these novels came out prior to the 2006 era of retcons and were officially signed off by whoever oversaw continuity at the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
Well it's subjective, it's not an objective complaint about the plot. But I'm gonna try not going down that rabbit hole again.

Mainly, I think the issues with Kerrigan's "plot armour" come down to presentation. Zeratul should probably realise that Raszagal is under Kerrigan's control, Dugalle should probably recognise that while Stukov betrayed him, it wasn't done for malicious reasons, Raynor, Mengsk and Fenix should likely realize or at least not be so surprised that Kerrigan betrays them on Korhal.

But all of these things are pretty dubious because Kerrigan and Raszagal act super shady in The Stand, Stukov is a super charming and genuine guy in The Iron Fist, and Kerrigan in The Queen of Blades acts super smug and unhelpful and offers no reassurances that she doesn't intend to just flat out betray her allies. With Mengsk and Raynor basically saying they're willing to work with her to get what they want. Which I accept and think is perfectly logical, but I do totally get why someone wouldn't.

But these are all fine plot points in of themselves I think. Dugalle's morals and ethics driving him to suicide is a good story. Zeratul being forced to kill his mother figure because she's old and corrupted by Kerrigan is really tragic too, Mengsk getting bested by a woman he left to die

I wish there was MORE of it and that it was presented a little more elegantly, but I also think that Brood War came out when Blizzard was still figuring out how narrative works in an RTS game. I think a lot of the themes and story ideas wind up being reiterated in WC3 in various ways and are much more refined and better presented there.
That's putting it mildly. The events of Brood War are extremely egregious.

My complaints about SC1 hinges largely on my dissatisfaction with the presentation and less on the logic behind the plot points. It is a LOT easier to rationalize the ill-defined events of SC1 than it is to rationalize anything in Brood War.

In SC1, the zerg's motivations are barely explained in the game itself. They invade the terran sector, seemingly chase psi-emitters (although you could argue that this just coincidence), abduct Kerry for some bizarre pet project, etc. But their reasons for doing all of these things are given only vaguely. It feels very disjointed, even random and unpredictable, but not entirely absent of logic. There are numerous bizarre leaps of logic, but none of the characters act like blatant idiots since you can easily contrive a reason for what they do.

In BW, the key plot points are obviously highly questionable and attempts to rationalize them only raise more questions. Why are the protoss reliant on a xel'naga warp gate when they to be able to make their own gates just fine? How did the zerg already establish hives on Shakuras when the refugees arrived? When did QoB have time to brainwash Raszagal? Why is there a xel'naga temple in the galactic rim that can destroy the zerg, when the zerg killed the xel'naga in the galactic core? Why does it require two highly specific crystal keys? How and why were these keys lost? How did Aldaris convince the khalai to rebel without telling them why they were even rebelling in the first place? Why do the protoss allow QoB to go free after she publicly murders Aldaris, which in any sane situation would be considered an act of war? Why do they work with her at all when they could just rip the information from her using their superior psychic powers? Why does DuGalle claim he distrusts Duran only to immediately take Duran's advice over that of his childhood friend? Why does DuGalle immediately suspect his childhood friend of having impure motives as opposed to logical strategic disagreements? Etc.

There were so many plot holes that the official recap in the Wings of Liberty manual and website completely glossed over everything because even Blizzard couldn't make sense of it. The recap at the beginning of Legacy of the Void glossed even more to the point that both SC1 and BW were basically footnotes and the information presented in a way that could lead to completely inaccurate impressions of those games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
And basically I think there IS a perfectly logical explanation for that anyway. She was left behind to hunt down the Dark Templar & Tassadar -- who are Protoss and are absolutely a massive threat. Plus the whole "I have left to her the greatness of her spirit" thing. This is what Kerrigan was choosing to do.

Again, just... kinda iffy presentation. I dunno how you do it right with how SC presented it's story, though. That sort of awkward "I'm doing this nonsensical thing for a reason" dialogue really bogged down SC2's script.

...I guess my whole point is I don't think Blizzard's current team rewriting SC as a remake is necessarily going to make it better. Maybe more efficient, safer, clearer. But I think a lot of the emotional impact would be lost.
My beef with SC1 ultimately boils down to presentation if we want to argue semantics. Yes, my complaints are subjective. Yes, you can rationalize everything. I still did not like the presentation and execution of the game's story and I feel that it could have been done much better. Maybe it couldn't have been done better within the limitations of 1998, but it can certainly be done better now.

And that's why I'm writing fanfiction.
Reply With Quote
  #115  
Old 06-07-2019, 06:53 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

Ranger
Cacofonix's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 302

Default

I don't recall you talking about WC3's (including TFT) plot deeply like you've done for SC. I find your stance neat so I wonder wjat you say about overall (retcons, the major characters, the factions...).
Reply With Quote
  #116  
Old 06-07-2019, 07:41 AM
BoxCrayonTales BoxCrayonTales is offline

Faerie Dragon
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 132

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cacofonix View Post
I don't recall you talking about WC3's (including TFT) plot deeply like you've done for SC. I find your stance neat so I wonder wjat you say about overall (retcons, the major characters, the factions...).
IIRC, I haven't played the official campaigns since the early 2000s. I don't remember them well enough to make an informed judgment, and re-playing them would take a while. Furthermore, it would probably be best to wait until after playing WC3R before making any judgments. I don't think I can put forth the effort to do a side-by-side comparison without taking months of prep time.

Has anyone else gone over the plot at length? I'm sure there are going to be side-by-side comparisons when WC3R comes out, but was the original plot analyzed in isolation? I know that the retcons have been gone over at length by many people elsewhere. There's that whole thread next spot over discussing how to remove and replace the retcons. But was the plot of WC3R ever analyzed on its own merits?

If I had to do an extremely brief overview of the first two campaigns (since they both star Arthas), then I could try that right now.

Due to the technological advancement at the time, WC3 was able to present its story much better than the previous Blizzard RTS games were able. WC1 and WC2 told a very bare bones story through their manuals, mission intro text, and cinematics. SC1 and BW told their story through talking heads, text blocks, and short cinematics. WC3 told its story through cutscenes created in the game engine that depicted much more activity through 3D models, so the number of cinematics was greatly reduced since they weren't needed as much.

I'm not sure, however, if Metzen's actual writing skills had improved. He recycled a number of situations from SC1/BW (this would become a running theme for Blizzard), such as characters joining the dark side. In fact, Jaina was originally going to become a banshee before they realized that subplot was too similar to QoB so it was moved to Sylvanas. Arthas' fall to darkness was clearly recycled from Kerry, but it is presented much better. The Lich King gaslights Arthas through a prolonged campaign in order to claim him.

However, much like the zerg campaign before it, the scourge campaign underwent a marked decrease in story quality compared to the prior alliance campaign. Where the alliance campaign asked questions like "do the ends justify the means?" and "which of two evils should you chose?", the scourge campaign did not ask any questions and simply told the player to accomplish certain tasks because the plot said so. The alliance campaign had a number of colorful characters who interacted and had drama and such. That was absent from the the scourge campaign. While the undead characters secretly worked against the demons, there wasn't any of the drama that characterized the alliance campaign.

In a sense, the change could be attributed to a shift from a character-driven narrative to a plot-driven narrative. The alliance campaign was character-driven: when the undead invaded, the focus was on how the characters reacted and why. The undead campaign was plot-driven: the focus was on the characters acquiring various objectives for the ultimate goal of summoning the legion to destroy the world.

Some key plots of the scourge campaign had questionable justification compared to the alliance campaign. For example, I can't remember much compelling reason given for why the Sunwell was needed to make Kel'thuzad a lich when the other liches didn't need it. It feels like Metzen just contrived a reason for an invasion of Quel'thalas. The whole scenario raises questions about why the scourge invaded Lordaeron at all if, after all was said and done, they just needed a skilled wizard to read the book of medivh to cast a spell to summon archimonde. If that was their true goal the whole time, then there were any number of ways they could have accomplished it. The invasions of Lordaeron and Quel'thalas weren't necessary in and of themselves.

So here we see some of the same storytelling problems that afflicted Starcraft, and probably for the same reasons such as multiple rewrites during development. The difference here is that WC3 better explained its plot points compared to SC1, so there is much better material for criticism compared to the subjective rationalizations debate characterizing criticism of SC1. The lesson we can take from this is that it probably would have made the most sense for Blizzard to wait on writing the story until after the mechanics were mostly finished, rather than rewrite the story every time budget limitations interfered with the mechanical development and forced them to cancel whole plots in the middle of writing. That probably would have had its own problems, though.

WC3R may attempt to address this by giving more characterization to the characters in the undead campaign. However, I don't think they would be able to add the drama that made the alliance campaign so interesting without major rewrites. There's a danger that they might make the scourge campaign more about their enemies like Uther and Sylvanas than the scourge characters.

I don't know. I'm not experienced as a critic. I prefer to discuss the retrocraft proposals in which the timeline is expanded and the scourge is a functional nation at war with the former alliance nations.
Reply With Quote
  #117  
Old 06-07-2019, 09:14 AM
Cacofonix Cacofonix is offline

Ranger
Cacofonix's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 302

Default

FYI, were't told that the Scourge attacked Lordaeron and Quel'thalas since they were able to threaten the Legion (or at least its return) so they were disposed of to make the invasion go easier. Still solid points.

https://forums.spacebattles.com/thre...ft-iii.252728/

If you need a recap that gives critiques you could check out the above.
Reply With Quote
  #118  
Old 06-07-2019, 11:38 AM
BoxCrayonTales BoxCrayonTales is offline

Faerie Dragon
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 132

Default

Back to WC3R....


One of the coolest innovations from SC2 was the army customization. You can argue that campaigns poorly executed its potential, but the multiplayer skins and co-op commanders are cool. There was better support for mods too, so we got several custom army mods like Heptacraft and Tech Wars. Sure, WC3 technically allowed for stuff like that, but there was no distinction between maps and mods at that point. You couldn’t simply take a map and change its dependencies to point to a mod made by someone else. We saw the early precursors of skins and army variants in WC3 with the High/Blood Elves and Chaos/Fel Orcs, but it was only in SC2 that the full potential was realized. If WC3R works more like SC2, this opens the door for so much more opportunity than even the heyday of WC3 mapping.

Army skins and variants would be an awesome addition to WC3. Remember how the WC2 manuals had entries for the Alliance nations and the Horde clans? Remember how the only distinction was their in-game color? With skins, it would be possible for every nation and clan to have a unique look. With variant armies, they could have distinct tech trees reflecting their homelands and cultures.
Reply With Quote
  #119  
Old 06-07-2019, 12:07 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

World Builder
Mutterscrawl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 32,487

Runes

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoxCrayonTales View Post
Back to WC3R....


One of the coolest innovations from SC2 was the army customization. You can argue that campaigns poorly executed its potential, but the multiplayer skins and co-op commanders are cool. There was better support for mods too, so we got several custom army mods like Heptacraft and Tech Wars. Sure, WC3 technically allowed for stuff like that, but there was no distinction between maps and mods at that point. You couldn’t simply take a map and change its dependencies to point to a mod made by someone else. We saw the early precursors of skins and army variants in WC3 with the High/Blood Elves and Chaos/Fel Orcs, but it was only in SC2 that the full potential was realized. If WC3R works more like SC2, this opens the door for so much more opportunity than even the heyday of WC3 mapping.

Army skins and variants would be an awesome addition to WC3. Remember how the WC2 manuals had entries for the Alliance nations and the Horde clans? Remember how the only distinction was their in-game color? With skins, it would be possible for every nation and clan to have a unique look. With variant armies, they could have distinct tech trees reflecting their homelands and cultures.

Gods yes please all of this. I've wanted it for years.
__________________
Brought to you by Sanguine Enterprises.

My Worldbuilding:
http://bloodinkworlds.tumblr.com/
Reply With Quote
  #120  
Old 06-07-2019, 02:04 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

Site Staff - Moderator
Aldrius's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,025

Default

Quote:
In BW, the key plot points are obviously highly questionable and attempts to rationalize them only raise more questions. Why are the protoss reliant on a xel'naga warp gate when they to be able to make their own gates just fine? How did the zerg already establish hives on Shakuras when the refugees arrived? When did QoB have time to brainwash Raszagal? Why is there a xel'naga temple in the galactic rim that can destroy the zerg, when the zerg killed the xel'naga in the galactic core? Why does it require two highly specific crystal keys? How and why were these keys lost? How did Aldaris convince the khalai to rebel without telling them why they were even rebelling in the first place? Why do the protoss allow QoB to go free after she publicly murders Aldaris, which in any sane situation would be considered an act of war? Why do they work with her at all when they could just rip the information from her using their superior psychic powers? Why does DuGalle claim he distrusts Duran only to immediately take Duran's advice over that of his childhood friend? Why does DuGalle immediately suspect his childhood friend of having impure motives as opposed to logical strategic disagreements? Etc.
I mean, I think this is basically the text form of a silly cinema-sins video. There's perfectly logical explanations for plenty of this that don't require a lot of thought, you only have to give the story the most bare of benefits of the doubt. And the rest of it is "obviously that couldn't happen and it was never established that it could happen."

I guess fundamentally you could say I'm not going to hold my video game plot which tells it's story through mission briefings and in-sprite cutscenes to the same standard I am to a novel or a film. And honestly that's what blizzard's tie in-novels should be for. Tell the smaller stories. Tell a story about a khalai protoss who got swept up in Aldaris's xenophobic rebellion (it wasn't just about Raszagal), tell the story about Stukov & Dugalle's childhoods. Rather than just retreading old story content and changing it a ton for no reason.

I don't care for any of the changes in context or retcons that Wings of Liberty brought (Raynor and Fenix were in contact with Zeratul on Shakuras during the Stand according to WoL's recap -- which is a weird change and makes everything worse), so I'm not really going to comment on that. I was discussing Brood War on it's own terms not what outside material has turned it into.

As to the Scourge campaign:

I think the WC3 campaigns all serve different purposes, and shouldn't be compared 1:1 like that. Yes the RoC Scourge campaign is one of the weaker ones, particularly in Reign of Chaos, but it's mostly bogged down by the Dalaran & Quel'thalas arcs which are overly long and don't really deal with anything thematically outside of Arthas killing Antonidas (which is over with by the half-way mark). It also has that general problem that Blizzard likes to end campaigns with aggravatingly long hold-out missions that don't really serve a purpose and feel really detached from the character arc.

The Path of the Damned's purpose is totally different from the Scourge of Lordaeron. The first campaign is about Arthas finding his place and where he belongs fundamentally. The Scourge campaign is about him finding that and now unleashing a plague of terror and violence upon the established kingdoms. And then the ending is meant to establish the main antagonist before he comes back in End of Eternity. Which is... something Blizzard bothered to do back then in a more elegant way than they did later on.

And yeah obviously it'd be cool to see more graphic and skin work done. (Particularly with the dreadlords, night elves and blood elves) Honestly I wish they WOULD fix up Reign of Chaos's map design and gameplay design a fair bit. It looks like they're using the Reign of Chaos item table too, which is a horrible idea when Frozen Throne's item table is SO much better. I'm not adverse to changes or updates, but hopefully they're for the better.
__________________
"The Demons did their job well. You creatures are as reckless and bloodthirsty as they ever were."

Last edited by Aldrius; 06-07-2019 at 02:11 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #121  
Old 06-07-2019, 04:31 PM
BoxCrayonTales BoxCrayonTales is offline

Faerie Dragon
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 132

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
I mean, I think this is basically the text form of a silly cinema-sins video. There's perfectly logical explanations for plenty of this that don't require a lot of thought, you only have to give the story the most bare of benefits of the doubt. And the rest of it is "obviously that couldn't happen and it was never established that it could happen."

I guess fundamentally you could say I'm not going to hold my video game plot which tells it's story through mission briefings and in-sprite cutscenes to the same standard I am to a novel or a film. And honestly that's what blizzard's tie in-novels should be for. Tell the smaller stories. Tell a story about a khalai protoss who got swept up in Aldaris's xenophobic rebellion (it wasn't just about Raszagal), tell the story about Stukov & Dugalle's childhoods. Rather than just retreading old story content and changing it a ton for no reason.

I don't care for any of the changes in context or retcons that Wings of Liberty brought (Raynor and Fenix were in contact with Zeratul on Shakuras during the Stand according to WoL's recap -- which is a weird change and makes everything worse), so I'm not really going to comment on that. I was discussing Brood War on it's own terms not what outside material has turned it into.

As to the Scourge campaign:

I think the WC3 campaigns all serve different purposes, and shouldn't be compared 1:1 like that. Yes the RoC Scourge campaign is one of the weaker ones, particularly in Reign of Chaos, but it's mostly bogged down by the Dalaran & Quel'thalas arcs which are overly long and don't really deal with anything thematically outside of Arthas killing Antonidas (which is over with by the half-way mark). It also has that general problem that Blizzard likes to end campaigns with aggravatingly long hold-out missions that don't really serve a purpose and feel really detached from the character arc.

The Path of the Damned's purpose is totally different from the Scourge of Lordaeron. The first campaign is about Arthas finding his place and where he belongs fundamentally. The Scourge campaign is about him finding that and now unleashing a plague of terror and violence upon the established kingdoms. And then the ending is meant to establish the main antagonist before he comes back in End of Eternity. Which is... something Blizzard bothered to do back then in a more elegant way than they did later on.

And yeah obviously it'd be cool to see more graphic and skin work done. (Particularly with the dreadlords, night elves and blood elves) Honestly I wish they WOULD fix up Reign of Chaos's map design and gameplay design a fair bit. It looks like they're using the Reign of Chaos item table too, which is a horrible idea when Frozen Throne's item table is SO much better. I'm not adverse to changes or updates, but hopefully they're for the better.
Yeah, well...

The spacebattles forums went over the bad writing at length and pretty much everyone agreed this was blatant bad writing. https://forums.spacebattles.com/thre...rcraft.243644/

I can’t really say anything they haven’t already said.
Reply With Quote
  #122  
Old 06-07-2019, 06:38 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

Site Staff - Moderator
Aldrius's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,025

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoxCrayonTales View Post
Yeah, well...

The spacebattles forums went over the bad writing at length and pretty much everyone agreed this was blatant bad writing. https://forums.spacebattles.com/thre...rcraft.243644/

I can’t really say anything they haven’t already said.
I don't think I'm going to take the time to siphon through all that to find people's pertinent opinions. I mean fair enough, I'm sure there's good points in here that are worth considering, but I also highly doubt it's anything new anyway. Yeah, the 1998 RTS game is logically inconsistent. Sure.

But as far as doing what it sets out to do, stringing together exciting game play with fun characters and a fun plot it does it's job. It succeeds. I don't dislike StarCraft 2's campaign because of the inconsistencies or plot holes or whatever, though. The fact that they completely, directly retconned the story I blatantly already played through (for... dubious reasons) bugs me, but it's more just... SC2 isn't any fun for me.

I guess if I objectively compare them, and could objectively try to find a reason I prefer SC1 to SC2 it'd mainly be I just think SC1 is more fun and the plot is more substantial, it's more earnest and sincere. I think all these things are true.

Anyway, to try and guide the conversation back to WC3. I really would like to see them improve the item table. The Wand of Negation is so much worse than the Staff of Negation, Frozen Throne also has lots of cool unique items like Gul'dan's Shadow Orb and the Ring of the Archmage, and I think that's something Reign of Chaos would really benefit from.

Something like making Frostmourne an item and it getting more and more powerful the more Arthas kills things. Like every 50 kills is a +1 to his attack power or something. That's a little weird because it's not an engrossing side-mission like what exists in tFT, though. So maybe that wouldn't work as well.
__________________
"The Demons did their job well. You creatures are as reckless and bloodthirsty as they ever were."

Last edited by Aldrius; 06-07-2019 at 07:18 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #123  
Old 06-11-2019, 03:45 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

Eternal
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 4,977

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
It's obviously pre-release, so it might be unwarranted. But it just seems to me like there's no enemy base. So you can't use effective scouting or map control to see attacks coming. I just get really strong SC2 map-style vibes from it.

I'm just nervous about it.
There is a base, it is simply unreachable like in the original rendition. But both the green and the purple attack from there. You can see it here. It's essentially where the Slaugherhouse is in World of Warcraft.

Reply With Quote
  #124  
Old 06-14-2019, 01:25 PM
BoxCrayonTales BoxCrayonTales is offline

Faerie Dragon
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 132

Default

I'm hoping that maybe the naga tech tree might be expanded into a full tree like the other four and that they might be available in multiplayer. It's probably not going to happen, at least not outside mods, since it would require additional rounds of rebalancing. Here's hoping that WC3R has SC2-style mod support so that it will be easier to use.

I would love to see tech trees for the Legion and the Goblins, though. But it's probably not gonna happen outside mods.

The sorts of skins, variants or co-op armies I'd like to see include:
  • Human Alliance: High Elf/Blood Elf, Stormwind/WC1-era (e.g. clerics, conjurers, catapults, crossbowmen), WC2-era (e.g. naval), other nation-specific
  • Orcish Horde: Chaos Orc/Fel Orc, WC1-era (e.g. necrolyte, warlock), WC2-era (e.g. naval, death knight, ogre mage), other clan-specific
  • Undead Scourge: Forsaken, Nerubian Empire
  • Night Elf Sentinels: Corrupted Ancients (satyr), Highborn

There are some WC3 campaigns that try to remake WC1 and WC2. I'm more interested in replicating the spirit rather than identical mechanics, as those simply aren't fun in modern times. Following the WC3 style seems fine, but naval combat would be entirely new. A re-imagining of WC1 or WC2 could expand the tech trees to a similar breadth as WC3. Units could be re-skinned and re-flavored for different nations and eras.

WC1 didn't have heroes, but its warlocks, necrolytes, conjurers and clerics have spells that in WC3 belonged to heroes. The warlock's summon daemon translates to the pit lord's doom spell, the necrolyte's dark vision and cleric's far seeing translates to the far seer's far sight spell, and summon water elemental is shared between conjurer and archmage. Likewise, the WC2 death knight and mage have six or seven spells each, so they could be split into two or so heroes by WC3 standards.

WC3 archers, priests and sorceresses could be re-skinned as Stormwind's archers, clerics and conjurers. The heroes could include the paladin (e.g. Lothar), archmage (e.g. Khadgar), and firelord (justified as summoned by the conjurers in lore). WC3 necromancers, Stormreaver necrolytes, warlocks, and doomguard could be adapted to the WC1-era Horde. The heroes could include blademaster, farseer, warlord (cut from alpha), and warlock (Archimonde's class); maybe demon heroes like the Pit Lord.

WC2's heroes don't work like WC3 heroes, but could be adapted as such. Gul'dan is a custom warlock hero, Cho'gall and Dentarg are custom ogre mage heroes, Zuljin is a shadow hunter hero, Grom Hellscream is a blademaster hero, Kargath Bladefist is a custom warlord hero, Teron Gorefiend is a death knight hero, Deathwing is a custom black dragon hero. Sir Anduin Lothar and Danath are custom heroes (maybe crusader cut from alpha?), Sir Uther Lightbringer and Turalyon are paladin heroes, Khadgar is an archmage hero, Alleria is an elven ranger hero, Kurdran is a custom dwarf gryphon rider hero.
Reply With Quote
  #125  
Old 06-14-2019, 03:03 PM
Aldrius Aldrius is offline

Site Staff - Moderator
Aldrius's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,025

Default

Quote:
There is a base, it is simply unreachable like in the original rendition. But both the green and the purple attack from there. You can see it here. It's essentially where the Slaugherhouse is in World of Warcraft.
In Reign of Chaos you can absolutely go there and attack it, it's just not feasible to do so generally. Mal'ganis has his altar of darkness there too. This looks like it's just... off the map. It's not a big deal, it just bugs me.

I think a Naga tech tree would be all right. The actual Naga units are so absurdly overpowered they're ridiculous, though. So they'd need A LOT of balance work.

I definitely want more bold armies and sound sets. Like I hope they add an actual elven swordsman and archer model that aren't just footman and night elven archer remodels. Honestly the Archer & Swordsman are also kinda useless anyway.
__________________
"The Demons did their job well. You creatures are as reckless and bloodthirsty as they ever were."
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
rts, warcraft 3

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.