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  #51  
Old 06-15-2017, 12:25 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Your eyes flash a warning of "SLIPPERY SLOPE" and you run! But try to take a moment and not worry about that.


Tom agonizes over his right hand. He has always felt off about it. It distresses him day and night. He wants it gone.

1) He cuts it off. Do you prosecute him?
2) His friend Jane cuts it off for him. Do you prosecute her?
3) For the first time in his life, Tom feels authentically happy. Can you share that happiness with him?
A wild NON SEQUITUR appears!
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  #52  
Old 06-15-2017, 12:28 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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A wild NON SEQUITUR appears!
Coward! Answer! This is part of the empathetic process!

It is the great adventure.

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  #53  
Old 06-15-2017, 01:04 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Coward! Answer! This is part of the empathetic process!

It is the great adventure.
No. I won't glorify it with an answer because it's a dishonest comparison like the ones I mentioned earlier. Maybe you're too young, but I lived through the "BUT PEOPLE WILL MARRY THEIR PETS AND TOASTERS!!!11!!11!" stage of the gay marriage debate. In my experience, those people are now begrudgingly being dragged along into societal progress and are okay with gay marriage now, but are making the arguments you mention now.
Either argue the issue at hand or go eat a bag of dicks.
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  #54  
Old 06-15-2017, 01:47 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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No. I won't glorify it with an answer because it's a dishonest comparison like the ones I mentioned earlier. Maybe you're too young, but I lived through the "BUT PEOPLE WILL MARRY THEIR PETS AND TOASTERS!!!11!!11!" stage of the gay marriage debate. In my experience, those people are now begrudgingly being dragged along into societal progress and are okay with gay marriage now, but are making the arguments you mention now.
Either argue the issue at hand or go eat a bag of dicks.
Aren't you a millenial? Although Grackle might be as well, depends where exactly do you draw the line.
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  #55  
Old 06-15-2017, 02:16 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Aren't you a millenial? Although Grackle might be as well, depends where exactly do you draw the line.
Pretty much everybody on this board (except for maybe Bolvar) is.
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  #56  
Old 06-15-2017, 02:44 AM
Aneurysm Aneurysm is offline

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Pretty much everybody on this board (except for maybe Bolvar) is.
Don't we have a bunch of Gen Xers too? At least within the forum's old guard.
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  #57  
Old 06-15-2017, 02:45 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Pretty much everybody on this board (except for maybe Bolvar) is.
How so? There are more people than Bolvar who are 34+ here. Or isn't the dividing line 83/84? And I'd wager you can't really apply this to anything beyond the Atlantic West, though that's a different story.
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Old 06-15-2017, 07:42 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
No. I won't glorify it with an answer because it's a dishonest comparison like the ones I mentioned earlier. Maybe you're too young, but I lived through the "BUT PEOPLE WILL MARRY THEIR PETS AND TOASTERS!!!11!!11!" stage of the gay marriage debate. In my experience, those people are now begrudgingly being dragged along into societal progress and are okay with gay marriage now, but are making the arguments you mention now.
Either argue the issue at hand or go eat a bag of dicks.
Weakness! I need you to do better; I need your roots deeper. Just a few posts ago you had polygamy lumped together with pet and toaster marriage, but after a few responses you've shied away from it. Monogamous hetero marriage, polygamous marriage, gay marriage, animal marriage, inanimate marriage - they all have similarities but also very important differences from each other. We think about these differences and similarities; we explore our reasons for supporting and opposing what we do.

* * *

You mention the issue at hand, and in my first post the issue I sought is understanding. I don't understand what it's like to "feel like a man". You know what I do understand? Feeling like I have my arm or my leg, even when I'm not using it. I can grasp the idea of someone born incomplete suffering from a phantom limb. If I can grasp that, I have to be able to grasp the reverse - feeling like there is no limb there, even when there is.

Apparently it's called Body Integrity Identity Disorder (BIID). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body...ntity_disorder

This is probably my bridge to understanding the concept of feeling that your body is born "wrong", in a way that can be "corrected" surgically. Even if I don't approve of bending one's body to match a brain's perception, it does help me comprehend instead of dismissing the issue as make believe.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 06-15-2017 at 07:45 AM..
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  #59  
Old 06-15-2017, 08:02 AM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Your eyes flash a warning of "SLIPPERY SLOPE" and you run! But try to take a moment and not worry about that.


Tom agonizes over his right hand. He has always felt off about it. It distresses him day and night. He wants it gone.

1) He cuts it off. Do you prosecute him?
2) His friend Jane cuts it off for him. Do you prosecute her?
3) For the first time in his life, Tom feels authentically happy. Can you share that happiness with him?
Because K wouldn't answer:

1 - No
2 - Yes
3 - Instructions unclear, cut off my own hand. See you in court.
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  #60  
Old 06-15-2017, 01:23 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Weakness! I need you to do better; I need your roots deeper. Just a few posts ago you had polygamy lumped together with pet and toaster marriage, but after a few responses you've shied away from it. Monogamous hetero marriage, polygamous marriage, gay marriage, animal marriage, inanimate marriage - they all have similarities but also very important differences from each other. We think about these differences and similarities; we explore our reasons for supporting and opposing what we do.

* * *

You mention the issue at hand, and in my first post the issue I sought is understanding. I don't understand what it's like to "feel like a man". You know what I do understand? Feeling like I have my arm or my leg, even when I'm not using it. I can grasp the idea of someone born incomplete suffering from a phantom limb. If I can grasp that, I have to be able to grasp the reverse - feeling like there is no limb there, even when there is.

Apparently it's called Body Integrity Identity Disorder (BIID). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body...ntity_disorder

This is probably my bridge to understanding the concept of feeling that your body is born "wrong", in a way that can be "corrected" surgically. Even if I don't approve of bending one's body to match a brain's perception, it does help me comprehend instead of dismissing the issue as make believe.
Do you believe cis men should be able to marry trans women? If so, do you also believe they should be able to marry dogs? These are very closely related, you see.
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Old 06-15-2017, 02:37 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Do you believe cis men should be able to marry trans women? If so, do you also believe they should be able to marry dogs? These are very closely related, you see.
I don't think the government should have any relationship with marriage anymore. But that wasn't your point.

For all the vast differences between, say, a man and woman standard marriage and a man marrying a dog, I can see similarities in the concept of the act of union itself. The reason we can dismiss it so openly has more to do with a lack of demand for animal-marrying rights, as opposed to some inherent constitutional morality code.

EDIT: I almost forgot to mention: I have no problem with CIS Battledroids marrying Transformers.

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  #62  
Old 06-15-2017, 02:50 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
For all the vast differences between, say, a man and woman standard marriage and a man marrying a dog, I can see similarities in the concept of the act of union itself. The reason we can dismiss it so openly has more to do with a lack of demand for animal-marrying rights, as opposed to some inherent constitutional morality code.
Why are you willing to draw an imaginary line there and not between transsexuals and random other issues people are attaching "trans" to in an attempt to bring them into the same conversations?
If it's purely the lack of demand, then you should drop the "transableist" thing because the demand for that is effectively nil. The only reason it's brought up is because people spam facebook with it to say "LOOK AT THIS SLIPPERY SLOPE!" just like these very same people did with comparing homosexuality to bestiality.
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Old 06-15-2017, 02:56 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Why are you willing to draw an imaginary line there
I must have expained myself wrong. I don't think the government should have any relationship with marriage because I feel unable to draw a line between authentic marriage and crazy fringes, without invoking subjective morality.
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  #64  
Old 06-15-2017, 03:12 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I must have expained myself wrong. I don't think the government should have any relationship with marriage because I feel unable to draw a line between authentic marriage and crazy fringes, without invoking subjective morality.
I'm not going down the spiral of subjective morality with you.

I'd still like to know what the people taking the "it's a mental illness" angle think homosexuality is, though. I have a feeling at least a few of them feel the same way about it.
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  #65  
Old 06-15-2017, 04:51 PM
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I almost forgot to mention: I have no problem with CIS Battledroids marrying Transformers.
I was going to stay out of this thread, but now I have no choice.

Roger roger
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  #66  
Old 06-15-2017, 06:52 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I must have expained myself wrong. I don't think the government should have any relationship with marriage because I feel unable to draw a line between authentic marriage and crazy fringes, without invoking subjective morality.
I don't think the government can really define marriage. They can just enforce a legal contract. Married people shouldn't be treated any differently than two single people when it comes to taxes.
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  #67  
Old 06-21-2017, 12:56 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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  #68  
Old 06-21-2017, 01:20 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I don't think the government can really define marriage. They can just enforce a legal contract. Married people shouldn't be treated any differently than two single people when it comes to taxes.
I'd prefer a different solution. It's semantics, really, but I'd turn "registered partnership" (or some more fancy naming) completely identical to marriage legally and socially, to serve as its replacement for anyone who is concerned with it on a practical and non-religious level. Marriage would then be reserved for those who would want an actual sacred union according to their faith.

But I agree with you when it comes to taxes.
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  #69  
Old 07-20-2017, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Weakness! I need you to do better; I need your roots deeper. Just a few posts ago you had polygamy lumped together with pet and toaster marriage, but after a few responses you've shied away from it. Monogamous hetero marriage, polygamous marriage, gay marriage, animal marriage, inanimate marriage - they all have similarities but also very important differences from each other. We think about these differences and similarities; we explore our reasons for supporting and opposing what we do.

* * *

You mention the issue at hand, and in my first post the issue I sought is understanding. I don't understand what it's like to "feel like a man". You know what I do understand? Feeling like I have my arm or my leg, even when I'm not using it. I can grasp the idea of someone born incomplete suffering from a phantom limb. If I can grasp that, I have to be able to grasp the reverse - feeling like there is no limb there, even when there is.

Apparently it's called Body Integrity Identity Disorder (BIID). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body...ntity_disorder

This is probably my bridge to understanding the concept of feeling that your body is born "wrong", in a way that can be "corrected" surgically. Even if I don't approve of bending one's body to match a brain's perception, it does help me comprehend instead of dismissing the issue as make believe.
We all try to make sense of the strange relationship between our physical bodies and our interiority. It's an inevitable part of the strange construction that is the human being, in that our physical nature and soul/mind/&c. often feel in opposition to one another.

I too cannot accept the idea of physically modifying a body to grant it traits it does not have. Even as someone who suffers from the feeling that my mind and body do not form a coherent whole, I know that such modifications would simply create a chimera, and would never reach the ideal 'self-guide' that resides within my soul/mind/&c.

However, as you and I both know, many in this world willingly choose to corrupt their God-given mental clarity. To some degree, we all try to avoid the realities of the world around us, no doubt. People use various drugs, media, political ideologies, religions, and whatever else, to escape from the unknowns and contradictions that form the basis our existence. To me, the existential problem of feeling as if one's body and soul/mind/&c. do not form a coherent whole is another one of those, one that cannot be understood merely through the scientific lens. Truthfully, it is a spiritual problem, rooted in the very base opposition between consciousness and instinct.

The present reaction by certain people to this problem, of modifying one's body in the hope of being liberated from the prison that is the flesh, is simply another form of medication, no different from the consumption of alcohol or binge-watching some sort of mass-produced cultural detritus. In fact, these actions are not truly a medicine, in that they do not offer a cure, but a 'supplement', that is, things we use as substitutes for those things that do not exist. In place of the absent centre, that is, a coherent narrative relationship between one's body and soul/mind/&c., one creates such a narrative through a combination of social construction and sculpture of the flesh.

Of course, this new narrative will never satisfy, in that it will never replace what does not and can never exist, and the feeling of lacking will continue. However, it will serve as a way to numb the senses, whereby one will give away one's lucidity, one's knowledge of the inherent absence of a totality, in return for mental stability. In this way, one should not be surprised by the appearance of such a trend. For as long as people have dwelled on this Earth, they have found ways to avoid the truth. Contemporary medical technology has simply given us a new one. That truth, to be clear, is not the naturalness of physical sex, but the truth that there is no one truth...

In any case, if a person in any way attempts to numb one's senses, they're no different from those that participate in the above-mentioned trend...I think empathy should be easy, in such a case...but perhaps your supplementarity prevents that...
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  #70  
Old 07-21-2017, 12:27 AM
C9H20 C9H20 is offline

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Welcome back Mr. Eagan. We've missed you.


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  #71  
Old 08-19-2017, 12:26 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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I thought this was interesting.
"No major difference in gender identity development of children raised by same-sex parents compared to those adopted by heterosexual couples. The toys that children prefer to play with in their preschool years are much more tell-tale about whether they will grow up to conform to typical gender norms."
http://www.springer.com/gp/about-spr...ntity/14216584
It's also worth noting that even some species of monkeys have been studied and show a gender split between wanting to play with cloth dolls or wheeled toys when young.
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Old 08-19-2017, 01:22 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I thought this was interesting.
"No major difference in gender identity development of children raised by same-sex parents compared to those adopted by heterosexual couples. The toys that children prefer to play with in their preschool years are much more tell-tale about whether they will grow up to conform to typical gender norms."
http://www.springer.com/gp/about-spr...ntity/14216584
It's also worth noting that even some species of monkeys have been studied and show a gender split between wanting to play with cloth dolls or wheeled toys when young.
So when conservatives lobby that adoption agencies can discriminate by religion and sexual preference arguing that they're protecting kids, they're really just talking shit so they can have poor kids to indoctrinate.
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Old 08-19-2017, 01:31 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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So when conservatives lobby that adoption agencies can discriminate by religion and sexual preference arguing that they're protecting kids, they're really just talking shit so they can have poor kids to indoctrinate.
"Be fruitful and multiply" has always just been a scheme to increase their numbers.
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Old 08-19-2017, 01:46 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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So when conservatives lobby that adoption agencies can discriminate by religion and sexual preference arguing that they're protecting kids, they're really just talking shit so they can have poor kids to indoctrinate.
I mean... Yes?

Everything the Democrats lobby for on that same front though is for the same reason.

You try and make it sound sinister by saying indoctrinate, but in the end that's all both sides are doing. Trying to get people to march to their music and belief systems to the detriment of the other.
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Old 08-19-2017, 02:11 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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I mean... Yes?

Everything the Democrats lobby for on that same front though is for the same reason.

You try and make it sound sinister by saying indoctrinate, but in the end that's all both sides are doing. Trying to get people to march to their music and belief systems to the detriment of the other.
One does not need an ulterior motive to support American values like freedom and equality.
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