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  #51  
Old 12-29-2017, 05:28 PM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
The bargaining at the end though - I really have to question that. Night Elves will get good content only after they get a raid? That already happened in Legion and all of that content went to the Horde. Besides, Night Elf fans have been watching their favorite race get demolished for at least eight years now - is there a point where you say "okay, you've suffered enough"?
My lame excuse is that the problem with the Nightborne is they were too thematically different from the modern incarnation of Night Elves. I'm talking about a modern Night Elf themed Raid. Not Night Elves with a twist, but just Night Elves squeezed for every last drop of potential raid boss material.

Fierce Sentinels and Watchers in plate who wield the blessings of their goddess. A fortress grown or reinforced with Druidic magic and blessing of Elune. Perhaps a Highborne focused wing. Something that shows off each main segment of their culture and uses them to their fullest to give us cool looking raid bosses. Like treants or other plant monsters. Their various natural allies, like Chimeras, Furbolg, Cenarians, or whatnot.

And then you kill them all, and get really sad you had to kill them instead of joining them. And you don't get their stuff. Just like Orcs don't get Iron Horde stuff. Unless Blizzard feels generous and decides to reuse those assets.

I suppose that's cynical optimism. It's more that I don't think things are necessarily fucked beyond repair. If you're lucky, they'll even give you a newly redesigned Capital City with new assets once BfA is over.

I mean, Blizzard wouldn't burn down your fucking capital if they weren't planning to do something with Night Elves. Let's just hope what you get is something worth it, and not just a push for greater unity within the Alliance. If you don't get any development in return for that, you're pretty much fucked.
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  #52  
Old 12-29-2017, 06:53 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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I'm going to address your last paragraph. The others aren't really a requirement for anything.

I don't see why they necessarily must have some idea of what to do with the Night Elves after Teldrassil, particularly given that, unlike the Forsaken, Blizzard has said jack squat about what happens next, and presented the incident in about the most throwaway way possible.
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  #53  
Old 12-29-2017, 08:17 PM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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I'm going to address your last paragraph. The others aren't really a requirement for anything.

I don't see why they necessarily must have some idea of what to do with the Night Elves after Teldrassil, particularly given that, unlike the Forsaken, Blizzard has said jack squat about what happens next, and presented the incident in about the most throwaway way possible.
It's because that while I think Blizzard are oftentimes lazy, inconsiderate, or incompetent, I don't think they're downright retarded. I expect them to mishandle practically everything and make tonedeaf decisions that miss the point. I expect them to install a Warchief and never make proper use of them before they're killed off.

What I don't expect is for them to destroy the city of one of their most played races, with some of their oldest surviving characters in it, and not have even considered what they're going to do with them.
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  #54  
Old 12-30-2017, 12:47 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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It's because that while I think Blizzard are oftentimes lazy, inconsiderate, or incompetent, I don't think they're downright retarded. I expect them to mishandle practically everything and make tonedeaf decisions that miss the point. I expect them to install a Warchief and never make proper use of them before they're killed off.

What I don't expect is for them to destroy the city of one of their most played races, with some of their oldest surviving characters in it, and not have even considered what they're going to do with them.
It seems as though you're basing your expectations on what you personally believe is reasonable, which underlines a level of trust with these people that I frankly don't share. We're at an impasse hence, so I'll make my closing argument.

Blizzard has done plenty of things that I would not consider reasonable with respect to the Night Elves, and you are by no means the first to advance a claim that you don't see Blizzard doing X, Y, or Z without in some way making it up to Night Elf fans or following it up with some real development. Those people were wrong, and the trends they failed to consider are very much still in place.

If you were talking to a Forsaken fan, I'd imagine they'd be reacting very differently. Blizzard has a good history with Forsaken lore. Blizzard has shown that they care about it, and about what Forsaken fans want to see. Blizzard treated the fall of the Undercity with the care and the weight that the event deserved. Blizzard showed the Horde during that event as being competent and dare I saw awesome. Blizzard followed that up with lore about entities like the Desolate Council. They clarified that the Forsaken are pushed back to rational holdouts and will continue the fight. They brought up a warfront that they're going to have in Stromgarde, and of course, Sylvannas is Warchief.

Now let's compare....

Blizzard has an awful track record with Night Elven lore, their fans get ignored or parodied. Teldrassil turns up in a couple of pieces of artwork and in the opening seconds of the features trailer as a "kick the dog" moment. We have no idea how that defense went, except that we see Sylvannas standing triumphantly in a field of carnage with an Alliance elf dying at her feet. Blizzard offered nothing on what happens next, the most we have is that the ship to Kalimdor has been rerouted. Holdouts were not outlined, no warfront here was discussed, and the Night Elf leadership ranges from incompetent to absent to neutral, with no indication that any of that will change.

In both cases I'm upset at the lack of explanation for how the Alliance and the Horde respectively power through the very heartlands of their adversaries, but that's beside the point. The point is that if you are a Forsaken fan, yes, you would be right to assume that, given the loss of your capitol city, Blizzard is going to give that event its proper treatment. However that ends, you will get lore and it will probably portray the part of the franchise that you like with respect.

For a Night Elf fan, given the history, the lack of lead up, the slapdash presentation, and two months of silence interrupted only by Thalyssra and Liadrin rhetorically gutpunching Night Elves some more, there's no reason to expect anything other than for the Night Elves to be chucked into a tent city in Stormwind, at which point the developers can call it a day and focus on other Alliance content. The requisite level of trust just isn't there. Blizzard has done absolutely nothing to earn it.

Until they do that, and believe me, it would take quite a lot, I simply do not see why they would conform to what you think would be reasonable for them to do. The trends I'm reading just don't support that kind of optimism.

Now, it wasn't my intent to return to what I regard as cold reality, but if you are explicitly taking into account what the writers may do in the future, as you appear to be doing, then I'm afraid cold reality has a place in the discussion.
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  #55  
Old 12-30-2017, 06:27 AM
Patrick_C Patrick_C is offline

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As a Horde player, I'm kind of sick of working for characters and factions that are basically just parts of the Alliance. It doesn't really make much sense. A more proper neutral faction should have more balanced themes, two different sides coming together, rather than just be a chunk torn from one faction and declared neutral.
Like the Shattered Sun Offensive?

Man, I miss the Shattered Sun Offensive. I wish Blizzard had taken that and ran with it, making Draenei and Beleves allies outside of the scope of Alliance and Horde politics, and that this kind of bilateral partnership extended to other races (Like, I dunno, Tauren and the more druidly inclined Night Elves, or give more weight to Human-Dwarf alliance).

Alas...
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  #56  
Old 12-30-2017, 07:49 AM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Like the Shattered Sun Offensive?

Man, I miss the Shattered Sun Offensive. I wish Blizzard had taken that and ran with it, making Draenei and Beleves allies outside of the scope of Alliance and Horde politics, and that this kind of bilateral partnership extended to other races (Like, I dunno, Tauren and the more druidly inclined Night Elves, or give more weight to Human-Dwarf alliance).

Alas...
The SSO wasn't really much more than a blood-elven themed Cenarion Circle. It just didn't take anything that it didn't eventually give back, it didn't overstay its welcome, and it wasn't being used as an excuse to prevent the Blood Elves from being shown at their best in other areas.

I mean, I liked the SSO, but I think its short lifespan and purpose driven nature was a huge part of its success.
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Old 12-30-2017, 10:02 AM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
It seems as though you're basing your expectations on what you personally believe is reasonable, which underlines a level of trust with these people that I frankly don't share. We're at an impasse hence, so I'll make my closing argument.
I don't think Blizzard is reasonable. I think they're humans and not some sort of defective AI algorithm or outright malicious. They might not understand what Night Elf fans want, but it's not like they're a forgotten race to Blizzard. They're one of the more frequently recurring races.

The "rhetorical gutpunches" to Night Elves are probably an effort to actually highlight their culture and attitude rather than degrade it. To make the Night Elves look more hardened. Whether or not they're doing it well, they're trying to do something. Even the insults the Nightborne aim at Night Elves, where they call them savages or like trolls, reflect the idea they've been listening.

Blizzard listening doesn't necessarily mean you'll get what you want, especially if there are too many seemingly contradictory ideas surrounding that. People say they want Warcraft 3 Night Elves back. Warcraft 3 Night Elves weren't exactly the most diplomatic or friendly race, and Nightborne wouldn't fit in well with them culturally. So this is what was shown. They're trying to show Night Elves as relatively primal and wild, and not likely to put up so much with the more foppish bullshit the Nightborne love.

When they're talking about the Nightborne joining the Horde because they believe it'd be better for them to retain their culture, they're probably referencing both the general incompatibility between Night Elves/Nightborne and the repeated complaints people have about how Night Elves have been handled.

They have a vague idea about what you want, and they're going to stumble around drunkenly for awhile until they hit upon something that sort of works or give up. They've given more use to Malfurion and Tyrande than they ever did to Vol'jin when he was Warchief. They're unlikely to just completely blend them in with the Alliance, because they've been making a token effort to do the opposite. They've been showing Elune, Patron Goddess of the Night Elves, as a relevant figure.

So yes, Night Elves get lore. They get attention far beyond that of most races. Blizzard just doesn't seem to have a 100% clear idea what's the best way to do that. I could even compare them with Orcs. Orcs get a lot of attention, but they've been mishandled to the point where people who used to be fans eventually grew sick of them.

This was because they tried to appeal to a certain fantasy about Orcs that it turned out only a vocal minority actually wanted. Even then, they didn't do a very good job with it, and Orcish identity suffered as a result. They lost the position of Warchief, when it was once inconceivable that any other race could hold that position.

You shouldn't worry about nothing being done with Night Elves. You should worry about too much of the wrong things being done with Night Elves.
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Like the Shattered Sun Offensive?

Man, I miss the Shattered Sun Offensive. I wish Blizzard had taken that and ran with it, making Draenei and Beleves allies outside of the scope of Alliance and Horde politics, and that this kind of bilateral partnership extended to other races (Like, I dunno, Tauren and the more druidly inclined Night Elves, or give more weight to Human-Dwarf alliance).

Alas...
In the sense that the Shattered Sun Offensive were distinct factions, Aldor and Scryer, coming together to resolve a particular crisis? Yes, something like that. Ideally, the Cenarion Circle should just be its own group, and the Horde should have its own nature-based faction. Sometimes coming together to resolve issues that require cooperation, but otherwise being rivals of a sort.
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  #58  
Old 12-30-2017, 12:56 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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@ Krakhed

I'll quickly reply to a couple of points here because I think that you're misunderstanding where I'm coming from in some areas (part of that is my fault).

With regard to the rhetorical gutpunching, leaving aside that Liadrin's gripe is just inaccurate, this ties back to an earlier complaint (which I didn't bring up in this thread, so the misunderstanding here is on me) that Night Elves are rarely allowed to give their side of the story. It looks like cantankerous bitching, their reasons for it are never expressed, let alone defended, which ends up making them look like this guy:



You seem to also be making a claim that Blizzard is trying to please Night Elf fans but is just failing. I really don't see where you get that. How do you work out that - by making them punching bags, making Tyrande often look like a petulant idiot (specifically "A little patience", but it bleeds into Val'sharah), refusing to put their victories onscreen, making core pieces of their identity neutral, and now, uprooting them completely from lands that are also heavily tied into their identity - they are trying to please Night Elf fans?

I don't necessarily believe that it's malice. I believe the writers are prioritizing the wishes of other fans and trying to simplify the factions so that they're easier to write. But again, I don't believe that Night Elf fans should continue to financially reward that kind of behavior. If Blizzard wants us as customers, then they should have to earn our custom.


Finally, I'm seeing a repeat of a common conflation coming in at the very end. I have never claimed that the Night Elves don't get enough lore - but I do say that Blizzard's treatment of them, and their fans, has been abusive. I would much prefer the position of a gnome fan, who knows that they will never get lore, but that accordingly, they won't be repeatedly trashed and demolished in terms of their respect and their identity. By around MOP, I was arguing strenuously that Night Elves simply should get no more lore, and I eventually axed my subscription because I feared the prospect of an entire expansion of it.

Looks like only my timing was off, although I doubt that some of this wasn't planned in advance.
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  #59  
Old 12-30-2017, 02:35 PM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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You seem to also be making a claim that Blizzard is trying to please Night Elf fans but is just failing. I really don't see where you get that. How do you work out that - by making them punching bags, making Tyrande often look like a petulant idiot (specifically "A little patience", but it bleeds into Val'sharah), refusing to put their victories onscreen, making core pieces of their identity neutral, and now, uprooting them completely from lands that are also heavily tied into their identity - they are trying to please Night Elf fans?
I get the sense they're trying to please Night Elf fans simply because they're using Night Elves in the first place. They fail to properly display their victories for the same reason Vol'jin looks incompetent and pathetic onscreen. Their writing team is fucked up. Garrosh was supposed to be smart, yet he was often shown being an incompetent moron. Blizzard is prone to sabotaging its own efforts to write a consistent or good story.

Tyrande looks like an idiot for a similar reason to Garrosh. Blizzard has trouble portraying fierce warriors as anything other than volatile meatheads. Savage warriors end up coming across as idiots who need cooler heads to keep them in check. In short, Tyrande is a petulant idiot because that's how Blizzard writes proud warriors these days.

While core pieces of Night Elf identity have been made neutral, they're still Night Elf dominated. Blizzard probably sees that all as Night Elf lore for the most part. Just everyone gets to see and experience it. Like Thrall.

Blizzard literally doesn't realize they're making Tyrande look incompetent by having Varian help her. They think they're showing an ideal Alliance where both sides benefit and learn from one another. They don't think they're taking lore away by making it neutral. You're being fucked over entirely by accident. Like with the Orcs.

It's the same reason why Sylvanas is Warchief. She's literally the most popular Horde character left alive, so they thought people would like her as Warchief. Every sensible person realizes this is stupid. And as a Forsaken fan rather than a Sylvanas fan, I'd rather keep Undercity and throw Sylvanas in a blender. Maybe the Forsaken will get lore from being pushed out of Lordaeron, but the Lordaeron angle is one of the key motivating points for the New Forsaken.

The New Forsaken she's been raising aren't the bitter and vengeful dead, but the oddly dissonant and cheery folk who seemingly don't think there's anything wrong at all with their situation and don't seem to process anything they're doing as anything less than morally upstanding. I'd rather have focus put on how this impacts the politics of their nation as a whole. Old Forsaken may have hated their condition and not want to raise any more, but the selection process results in new recruits who are remarkably chill with their new lives and would be all for necromancy.

New developments are unlikely to explore that angle, and things are likely to focus on Sylvanas and the other emo undead in the Desolate Council who probably disagree with her. The lore they get will probably shut down the story I'd actually be interested in. The large influx of new Forsaken with an entirely different view on everything, and no particular reason to be loyal to Sylvanas besides gratitude, highlighting that difference here, for being raised.

Got my fingers crossed for the day we get our own damned necromancers and don't need her around.

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  #60  
Old 12-30-2017, 05:39 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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I may not necessarily accept your interpretation, but even if I did, it wouldn't change much. If we're saying that Blizzard's writing team is just a gaggle of fuck ups, then we're back to where we started, with the same trends that we discussed.

So again, I don't see why the writers have to have a plan for them after Teldrassil or why they must be doing something other than preparing a spot to put the rep and mount vendors. That scenario is entirely possible, and I would regard it as likely that what future developments Night Elf fans will get will in no way compensate for the loss of Teldrassil given the track record, whether that record came about by intent or mistake.

It also doesn't change my prescription for what Night Elf fans should do next, or my statement that the best thing for Night Elf lore would be for the Night Elves to be handed to a third party developer who either actually cares or is simply more competent.
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Old 03-17-2018, 12:11 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Alright, I threatened a post like this on the SoL discord, and I've raised this theory before on multiple occasions. But in the past couple of months I've grown a tad more optimistic as more information comes out - albeit with the caveat that it is still quite possible that the worst case scenario will bear out.

The argument for optimism in my mind is that the Night Elves only lose Teldrassil, and retain their presence in the rest of Northern Kalimdor. It's hard to underline how much this makes a difference in how the Night Elves are portrayed, at least from how I see it.
Rather than being comprehensively defeated in their own backyard, they at minimum hold the line.
Rather than being uprooted from a land very much tied into their identity, they stay to defend it.
Rather than having their efforts subordinated to a distinctly human ambition - they fight for what they care about.

This could change everything.

As for the basis for that argument: I would not normally quote another person so heavily and completely, but I do have to hand it to Ronstin over at the US Story Forums for laying it out quite comprehensively. His points follow.

Here is where his points begin:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...1857429?page=5

Quote:
Teldrassil's existence is absolutely meaningless to their religious communalist economy that's based on their nature blessings and use of wisps. That is maintained so long as they keep a forested home. And since we already have the gameplay indications that they're sticking around in northern Kalimdor, they're not refugees relying on the other Alliance races for basic survival either. All they've done is switch BACK to Northern Kalimdor (where we've seen in Cataclysm and more recently that Hyjal and Nordrassil are recovered) just like they'd switched to their new Teldrassil while their original holdings were still in recovery.
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Teldrassil was a medium-term rental for refugees while their actual homeland was repaired/recovered. These are people that counted the forests of Northern Kalimdor, not that brand-spanking new island-tree, as their home for thousands of years. Not just as a race but each individually because they did/do live that long. That real home has recovered and as of the end of MoP they didn't even have to deal with the Horde still in it, they'd left. ...

Will the loss of Teldrassil hurt? Sure. But it will hurt like any non-heinous war loss, not like something approaching genocide. It doesn't even cause anything more than short-term disruption to their uniquely-structured economy.
The uniquely structured economy, for reference, has to do with the Night Elves symbiotic relationship with the wilds, such that they are able to grow settlements and effortlessly provision their population and military based on the surrounding territories thanks to wisps and druidism. It's about the only scenario where a free market advocate like myself could see efficiency in a socialist economy - and it changes the game on matters of logistics and supply.

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We don't know how the war is supposed to develop later but we do know that the only areas seeing any updates and phasing are Tirisfal and Teldrassil and we know that Northern Kalimdor keeps an Alliance transcontinental transportation hub, which serves as a pretty big clue to my mind.
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There is no indication so far that the northern forests are or would be Horde dominated. The northern forests also include areas where that hasn't been so much as a whispered trace of Horde presence (aside from Horde druids, the player, and a visit by Thrall) which would themselves be no more out of place for civilians than Mulgore, Durotar, etc were for the Horde during the Cataclysm war.
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The only territory mentioned is flanking Malfurion by going into Felwood and finding a way down into Darkshore from there. WAY more limited than your attempt to paint a canvas across at least five zones specifically including Hyjal which actually is never mentioned in any datamining anywhere.
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They're talking about getting from Felwood to Darkshore. Mount Hyjal is literally the opposite direction. Darkshore is directly to the west of Felwood, Hyjal is directly to the east. Further, there is a massive elevation difference between Darkshore and Felwood. You are literally going over, under, or through a mountain to get from Felwood to Darkshore (technically all of Ashenvale, Felwood, and Winterspring count as the increasing highlands from the coast toward the peak that is Hyjal)

....

You can be in a part or parts of Ashenvale *or Darkshore, or Felwood) without wiping the entire zone clean of night creatures with purple skin. And also it's worth pointing out there's no indication they came from Orgrimmar either.

It looks to me like they're in eastern Ashenvale (probably at/near the border with Darkshore, things narrow into a small pass there) and she sends Saurfang with a small force to go to Felwood and find a way down into Darkshore to create a distraction in Malfurion's rear so the Horde can break into Darkshore. That puts a small force infiltrating into Darkshore through Felwood and an army of unknown size in eastern Ashenvale near Zoram'gar.

That army could have marched from Orgrimmar through half of Ashenvale, it could have been landed by boat coming up the eastern coast of Kalimdor, or it could have come in from the tauren holdings in Stonetalon. Even if it does come from Orgrimmar, there's no indication of what you alleged.
Quote:
What we're left with after Teldrassil, though, is that the night elves are apparently still in northern Kalimdor and the first Kalimdor Warfront is all the way down in the Southern Barrens. That doesn't speak well to the night elves being decimated, devastated, or any other d-word you might be thinking about using.
The points I will tack on are as follows:

1. On the subject of parity, there is no indication that the Forsaken are losing territory outside of Tirisfal either. The presence of the Arathi Warfront and the required logistics suggest that the Forsaken will retain substantial holdings in the northern part of the Eastern Kingdoms as well. This is of course punctuated by the fact that the Alliance lands amphibiously, rather than pushing a land invasion up through Hillsbrad and Silverpine. (I don't see the other route as being viable at all)

If this parity wasn't maintained - if the Horde retained such a foothold and the Alliance didn't? I would expect the official forums to explode into a rage we haven't seen since Cataclysm. Look at how void elves have gone down, and then imagine that when the difference can be quantified so clearly: "the Alliance lost territory and the Horde didn't". You don't need much imagination to see what the "Horde bias" threads would look like - and the last time we got anything approaching that, Metzen ended up in an Alliance sweatshirt promising fist-bump moments.

2. The Kalimdor warfront explicitly excludes anything in Ashenvale. I have said this is either really good or really bad. This is the really good option, because it means that Ashenvale is uncontested.

3. Tyrande, Malfurion, and Shandris are thus far absent from the Fall of Lordaeron scenario, which suggests that they're busy with other things. Maintaining the fight in Kalimdor is of course, a plausible other thing.

4. The Night Elves do not NEED a capitol city. They previously were very spread out and able to live off of the forests. This could be a return to that, one that I'd welcome.

... anyway. I know that this thread has been me mostly quoting an old rival of mine, but I think I can now answer the question of "what can be" with an optimistic possibility. This doesn't confirm anything, nor will I give the developers the benefit of the doubt until something actually is confirmed, but it is something to be hopeful for.
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