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Old 11-26-2017, 05:36 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Thumbs down Mediocre at Best

So we were talking, over on the Discord, where all the cool kids are, and a subject came up which I thought might be fun to ferry back over to the forum. That subject is this:

How many characters in Warcraft have NOT failed at their assigned and assumed roles?

I mean, how many leaders can you name who haven't failed their people? How many dragonflights can you name which haven't just gone totally off the rails? How many gods and heroes have miraculously contrived to not be all-around general fuck-ups?

I figure most of our lists are gonna turn out to be pretty short.
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Old 11-26-2017, 05:47 PM
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Does dying in the line of duty count as a failure? If not, Tirion's life has always been one of successes, starting with being morally upstanding with Eitrigg and founding the Argent Crusade to deal with the LK.
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Old 11-26-2017, 06:01 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Thrall?
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Old 11-26-2017, 06:05 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Old 11-26-2017, 06:09 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Sylvanas' entire existence is testament to her failure.

Thrall failed his Horde time and again throughout the Garrosh fiasco.

Tirion loses points for hosting a carnival at the base of Death Mountain, but I guess otherwise he was a pretty cool guy.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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Old 11-26-2017, 06:20 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Maiev didnt fail.
I guess the Cenarion Circle and Ysera were pretty on point as well considering the nature of their enemy, but even then..

Gallywix.seems to be doin alright at his goals.

As for leaders failing their people..
Magni wass good.
Tyrande.... I wont say she failed her people, but I cant say shes been good for them. Shes certainly loved, but shes effectively responsible for the stagnation.
Voljin never failed his people.
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Old 11-26-2017, 06:24 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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It wasn’t really Thrall’s Horde after he left it.
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Old 11-26-2017, 06:27 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Maiev didnt fail.
Or you joking? She had one job - contain the prisoner.

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Gallywix.seems to be doin alright at his goals.
Ha! I'll give you that, and gladly add Gallywix to the list of Non-Failure Warcraft Characters.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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Old 11-26-2017, 06:30 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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It wasn’t really Thrall’s Horde after he left it.
True, but Thrall pretty much failed his Horde before he stepped down. Arguably, that's why he stepped down.

He admitted to it in The Shattering. He couldn't lead the Horde, he was on the verge of being overthrown, and he had to be careful of what he said because of it.

The Orcs never went through the cultural change he really wanted for them, instead they clung to the attempt because of him out of respect. As time past, that respect meant less and less, and the story of the glory days, especially with a Hellscream front and center selling that lifestyle, and, well.

Thralls Orcs very quickly became disenfranchised with their respect for him.

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Or you joking? She had one job - contain the prisoner.
I mean, by no fault of her own was that failed. Tyrande came in like a wrecking ball.

Although...

I do have a theory about that.

I think Illidan was a prisoner of the Druids, not of Tyrande and the "darnassian" Night Elves. That explains why Illidan wasn't in The Vault of the Wardens. That explains why the Warden didn't stand down on Tyrande's orders.
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Old 11-26-2017, 06:44 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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I mean, by no fault of her own was that failed. Tyrande came in like a wrecking ball.
I'm pretty sure 'failure to do your job' is a 'failure' regardless of whether that job involved opposing forces which ended up too great for you.
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I was probably just upset about the Horde fleet in the Second War.
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Old 11-26-2017, 06:45 PM
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Tirion loses points for hosting a carnival at the base of Death Mountain, but I guess otherwise he was a pretty cool guy.
I actually maintain that the argent tournament was a good idea. The scourge grows in power every enemy you throw at it. It makes more sense to assault ICC with a few incredibly powerful champions who won't die than a horde of mooks who will just join the enemy army.
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Old 11-26-2017, 06:57 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Old 11-26-2017, 07:05 PM
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I actually maintain that the argent tournament was a good idea. The scourge grows in power every enemy you throw at it. It makes more sense to assault ICC with a few incredibly powerful champions who won't die than a horde of mooks who will just join the enemy army.
Yeah but we got those dead hordes of mooks anyway in Pit of Saron.
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Old 11-26-2017, 07:06 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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I actually maintain that the argent tournament was a good idea. The scourge grows in power every enemy you throw at it. It makes more sense to assault ICC with a few incredibly powerful champions who won't die than a horde of mooks who will just join the enemy army.
Except the mooks ended up fighting anyway and holding their own, so instead of taking disposable mooks out of the picture all we did was kill and/or disqualify 50% of our best champions.

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Old 11-26-2017, 07:09 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Old 11-26-2017, 07:41 PM
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Except the mooks ended up fighting anyway and holding their own, so instead of taking disposable mooks out of the picture all we did was kill and/or disqualify 50% of our best champions.
I'm not sure if I follow.

If you're referring to the Ashen Verdict, weren't they implicitly the best that the Crusade and Ebon Blade had to offer for the ICC strike force?

If you're talking about the gunship; Tirion doesn't have control of the Alliance or Horde.
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Old 11-26-2017, 07:58 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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I actually maintain that the argent tournament was a good idea. The scourge grows in power every enemy you throw at it. It makes more sense to assault ICC with a few incredibly powerful champions who won't die than a horde of mooks who will just join the enemy army.
Good idea in concept maybe but...

1. Didn't the raid actually have people die in it? Like, we literally killed off our own fighters?

2. Didn't those champions die like chumps in ICC's 5mans, with only like 5 guys being worthwhile fighters?
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Old 11-26-2017, 08:06 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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I'm not sure if I follow.

If you're referring to the Ashen Verdict, weren't they implicitly the best that the Crusade and Ebon Blade had to offer for the ICC strike force?

If you're talking about the gunship; Tirion doesn't have control of the Alliance or Horde.
I'm saying that if there were something to the logic of the Argent Tournament, we'd have found a whole lot of undead Alliance and Horde near the top tiers of the citadel instead of both sides managing to fight off the Scourge.

And the "best of the Argent Crusade and Ebon Blade" stuff falls flat because despite both organizations apparently somehow being considered "worthy" by default, the Argents especially spent half of the expansion getting slapped around by Scourge and trolls like the glorified footmen and grunts they really were. Where were all of these totally worthy-by-default "best of the Crusade" whenever they kept losing without my help?

If Blizzard wanted me to swallow them telling me I had to prove my worth after defeating everything else Northrend threw at me, they shouldn't have made me prove it to a bunch of people who were objectively shown to be less worthy than I, even as they claimed to be otherwise and got a free pass to Icecrown because they wore the right tabard. If they were so in love with it as a concept, they should've had the Kirin Tor doing it, or someone else who hadn't spent the past four patches routinely and one-sidedly getting their faces kicked in until I came along to save them. And we should have seen the Argent Crusade having to prove their worth along with us, instead of being treated like some superior arbiters of who's worthy to fight when they'd already proven lacking in that department.

Last edited by ARM3481; 11-26-2017 at 08:10 PM..
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Old 11-26-2017, 08:41 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Wait, what? The Ebon Blade and the Argent Crusade had their asses kicked all over Northrend?

Did I really read that? Because all the outposts and strongholds built by both of them, especially the Ebon Blade, say otherwise.

The Ebon Blade had a gloriously successful campaign on Northrend.
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Old 11-26-2017, 09:11 PM
ARM3481 ARM3481 is offline

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Wait, what? The Ebon Blade and the Argent Crusade had their asses kicked all over Northrend?

Did I really read that? Because all the outposts and strongholds built by both of them, especially the Ebon Blade, say otherwise.

The Ebon Blade had a gloriously successful campaign on Northrend.
So you didn't actually read my post then.

I was talking specifically about the Argent Crusade in that regard. The Ebon Blade at least has some excuse; as death knights and empowered former champions of the Scourge every single one is theoretically on par with a player hero. Except despite actually having the credentials to make such a claim, they weren't the ones anointing themselves as judges of our worth.

The Argent Crusade were a bunch of extra-shiny footmen who got kicked around until we showed up and won for them. All those outposts and strongholds? They're about to be overrun whenever we showed up. And yet despite pulling off the tasks they couldn't manage, they hold this little tournament and stand in judgment of our worth as if they've already got this war in the bag and we're just competing for front row seats.
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Old 11-26-2017, 10:02 PM
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Good idea in concept maybe but...

1. Didn't the raid actually have people die in it? Like, we literally killed off our own fighters?

2. Didn't those champions die like chumps in ICC's 5mans, with only like 5 guys being worthwhile fighters?
I could've sworn that after reducing the health of the other factions' champions to 0 they just took a knee.

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I'm saying that if there were something to the logic of the Argent Tournament, we'd have found a whole lot of undead Alliance and Horde near the top tiers of the citadel instead of both sides managing to fight off the Scourge.
Well I mean, the top of ICC begins with Dranosh Saurfang and includes plenty of mobs that are clearly former Alliance and Horde races like the blood elven san'layn and gnomes in the plague quarter.

Quote:
And the "best of the Argent Crusade and Ebon Blade" stuff falls flat because despite both organizations apparently somehow being considered "worthy" by default, the Argents especially spent half of the expansion getting slapped around by Scourge and trolls like the glorified footmen and grunts they really were. Where were all of these totally worthy-by-default "best of the Crusade" whenever they kept losing without my help?

If Blizzard wanted me to swallow them telling me I had to prove my worth after defeating everything else Northrend threw at me, they shouldn't have made me prove it to a bunch of people who were objectively shown to be less worthy than I, even as they claimed to be otherwise and got a free pass to Icecrown because they wore the right tabard. If they were so in love with it as a concept, they should've had the Kirin Tor doing it, or someone else who hadn't spent the past four patches routinely and one-sidedly getting their faces kicked in until I came along to save them. And we should have seen the Argent Crusade having to prove their worth along with us, instead of being treated like some superior arbiters of who's worthy to fight when they'd already proven lacking in that department.
Presumably the worthy ones were those who weren't getting merced by the scourge and trolls. Like the guys powerful enough to protect a tournament set up on the scourge's doorstep.
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Old 11-26-2017, 10:31 PM
Trickster Trickster is offline

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Old 11-26-2017, 11:11 PM
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I could've sworn that after reducing the health of the other factions' champions to 0 they just took a knee.



Well I mean, the top of ICC begins with Dranosh Saurfang and includes plenty of mobs that are clearly former Alliance and Horde races like the blood elven san'layn and gnomes in the plague quarter.


Presumably the worthy ones were those who weren't getting merced by the scourge and trolls. Like the guys powerful enough to protect a tournament set up on the scourge's doorstep.
1. In the five man dungeon, they do. But in the raid (and uh, in the dungeon's last fight) we see skeletons and dead champions raised and whatnot, and it all seems very permanent.

2. San'layn are from Kael's folks tho and Gnomes are just holdovers from Naxxramas

3. I think the problem we're seeing here is the paradox of gameplay and lore design

If the rest of the world were competent, you'd think it wouldn't need saving

but because it always needs saving, you feel it must be either incompetent or unworthy of being saved

What we need are Blizz quests that demonstrate the faction leaders and the nations of the world having their shit together AND making us feel good about helping them
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Old 11-27-2017, 02:17 AM
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Thrall?
Thrall is responsible for:
  • Warchief Garrosh
  • Trade Prince Gallywix
  • The Banshee-Queen Sylvanas
Warchief Thrall had an unusually-successful career presiding over his New Horde, but he has still made his share of mistakes.
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Old 11-27-2017, 05:50 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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Mistakes =/= failures, which seems to be the point of the thread. Whoever hasn’t been dethroned or killed is at least better than the rest.
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