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Old 09-17-2013, 03:09 PM
Valtheria Valtheria is offline

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Here's the reply that was on the Taran Zhu thread. I feel like I'm baiting something bad again by making this, though.

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Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
Past the landing zone in the Jade Forest, the Alliance doesn't do any enslaving. I'll give you the statue, but so what about it being irreplaceable? What makes it irreplaceable? That it's a statue? That's hardly a reason. It can take centuries to build a town (constant growth and rebuilding) or longer to grow a forest. The Sha are defeatable and are apparently defeated for all time now after this raid. The damage to the Vale apparently goes away too (the water keeps flowing and growing in the Valley of Four Winds). The Horde has caused untold damage to Azeroth since it arrived, causing the deaths of millions of humans and thousands of dwarves and Kaldorei, tens to hundreds of thousands of High elves, occupied lands they know isn't theirs.
The statue is irreplaceable for the same reason a sacred tree in Ashenvale might be irreplaceable.

You can defeat the Sha, but you can defeat Arthas. That something can be defeated doesn't make it harmless. Hell, the Horde was defeated in war twice now (five if you count the various iterations not connected to the Doomhammer/Thrall/Garrosh/Vol'jin line of Warchiefs) and they still do a ton of damage when they become a threat.

Also, when Taran Zhu said what he said, he had no way of knowing the Vale's waters would return. He doesn't have the benefit of a third-person omniscient point-of-view and the Vale isn't going to heal immediately regardless of the pools' return. He is well within his rights to feel that way since he's clearly researched our history, watched his Shado-Pan and the Golden Lotus decimated by the Horde, and was nearly killed as the most sacred place in Pandaria (maybe the most sacred and place left untouched by evil on all of Azeroth) was corrupted.

Also, where are you getting these figures? Because "tens to hundreds of thousands of high elves" is more of a Scourge figure than a Horde one - Silvermoon never fell to the Horde, if I recall correctly. They're kingdom, though larger than shown in-game, could never suffer losses in those numbers unless the Elfgates fell and the lands north of the Elrendar were invaded.

Millions of humans, I will give you. Between Stormwind and the kingdoms on Lordaeron, as well as the current conflict. But the Scourge did far more damage than the Horde did - not that that's a defense, mind you, comparing the Horde to the Scourge doesn't exactly make it look "good". It's about perspective, however. The Horde and everything brought by it to Pandaria is the Pandaren's Scourge.

And, honestly, it seems like more Kaldorei have died to the cataclysm and the War of Shifting Sands in their recent history than they've died to the Horde. But they do die to the Horde a lot and that is a valid grievance; I just don't see it as equivalent to the pandaren because of how low the night elves' numbers are said (perhaps implied, must find citation) to be due to their stagnation after the Sundering.

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Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
The yaungol and Mantid are native threats which makes the Shado-pan look pretty bad since it wasn't the fact those forces were beating the Shado-pan, but that they were doing it before they were scheduled. The yaungol and Mantid attack on a schedule... and it caught the Shado-pan with their pants down. The temples apparently can and have come under attack before. By the Saurok (the Red Crane), the Mantid (White(?) Ox) and presumably the other two temples as well. They aren't strangers to conflicts. They are 'defiled' when those attacks happen, so no loss there.
Some saurok and some mantid are not equivalent to full-scale Sha outbreaks (major Sha in particular being rare and extremely dangerous) and the deaths of those temples' acolytes. Just because they are used to conflict (something that the Alliance and Horde's races were no stranger to before the Dark Portal) doesn't mean that this isn't devastating. Defending your people, culture, and sacred sites and experiencing the near-decimation of your people, culture, and sacred sites are entirely different things.

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Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
Alliance towns have been destroyed. An entire country cast down into ruin and most of the population made to flee. Hillsbrad, Southshore and Dun Garok wiped out completely in recent times, and one kingdom wiped out, millions killed, and other lands attacked and devastated in older times by the Horde. The Kaldorei have been facing a ten year occupation of their own land and have recently faced a concentrated effort to take all of their land, have seen beloved forests cut down, hundreds or more of their citizens killed. Theramore completely obliterated, Northwatch literally melted off the planet and tens of thousands of soldiers and sailors and likely up to hundreds of thousands of citizens killed by the Horde. Just because we don't see the many towns and villages and cities in game doesn't mean that the ones in the game are the only ones that exist.
Dun Garok and Northwatch were military outposts and I doubt that "tens of thousands" of ANYTHING could exist in either of them when the former was a few out-of-kingdom dwarves and the latter was mostly manned by Tirasian navy personnel (minority in the Alliance overall) and Theramore marines (who are the refugees of the plague and not incredibly numerous).

Northwatch was also rebuilt stupidly fast in Tides of War, so it's pretty much the same as the pandaren's temples by your logic. It's rebuilt, so the lives lost and/or destroyed don't count.

Hillsbrad was already at war for years before its decimation, horrific though it was, and was made up of Lordaeronians who refused to leave after the Scourge - not a potentially high figure given how utterly the plague and Arthas's troops ravaged Lordaeron.

I'd put those losses at a couple hundred, with a little over one hundred surviving refugees, as an estimate. That they had issues with the Forsaken can be summed up as "The Forsaken weren't that large from the start and couldn't put their full might on Hillsbrad." Just an estimate, though. Just as valid as your "hundreds of thousands in two to three years" estimate.

The Kaldorei have been facing four years of occupation at best, unless you think Durotar belongs to them (laughable) or that the orcs' and humans' unwitting desecration of their forests is "occupation". Theramore's citizens were mostly evacuated (of course, SoO implies that they didn't get away so you might have me on the losses) and wasn't amazingly large.

And your assessment of in-game scale vs. actual scale applies to the Pandaren as well. Which means that, if we are to count things we DON'T know, have no real measure of how many pandaren died any more than we have a measure of how many Alliance have died.

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Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
It's been the Horde from the Dark Portal times to now in WoW that have inflicted almost continuous damage and loss of life to the Alliance. A good part of the population of the Alliance has been forced to move and fight in wars they don;ty want or understand, but are forced to fight them for survival.
The Horde has existed as a threat to the Alliance for thirty years now, only six of which it existed as the heartless, bloodthirsty army it was, fourteen of which it spent in captivity, seven of which it wasn't actively hostile, and two of which it resumed active aggression.

So that's eight of thirty years. But the Horde IS efficient at killing when it wants to be, so the casualties are plausible, but "continuous damage" isn't exactly true.

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Originally Posted by Kynrind View Post
Overall, Pandaria has gotten off lightly. It's survived with most of it's problems ending up being solves (Sha gone, the corruptions vanishing if what I hear about in the raid being true), the Mantid and mogu, yaungol and Saurok being controlled, plus the continent has been opened to there outside so it can expand economically selling food and booze and silk/cloth. Was Pandaria hurt? Yes. Worse than the Alliance? Hell no. It's only claim is that all of that happened within a year.
Being able to rebuild doesn't mean they didn't suffer or their suffering is equal. The pandaren can rebuild and reopen trade as much as the Alliance can with the Horde gone because, like the pandaren, the Alliance has all but destroyed every threat despite its suffering.

Count it: the Legion, the Scourge, the Twilight's Hammer, the Horde, all of them caused the Alliance a lot of grief, but does their being defeated and the Alliance's ability to rebuild invalidate that? No, it doesn't. Like the pandaren, they can't bring back their dead (well, they can, we'd all prefer they not) and they can't forget the pain they've endured.

That it happened in a year is the truly devastating part of it. The Horde has essentially been as destructive to Pandaria as it was to Stormwind, but in even less time and with an even greater population. Garrosh is no better than Blackhand the Destroyer and only marginally worse than Orgrim Doomhammer.
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Old 09-18-2013, 12:22 PM
Reignac Reignac is offline

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I think you're one of my favorite posters now.
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You know, when I put the "i hate all of you" tag in threads, I'm not trying to be funny or cute. With a handful of exceptions, I really do hate almost everybody here.

It's one thing to have problems and voice your concerns, but when you endlessly bitch day in and day out about the same tired old shit, it honestly makes me wonder why you are even here. Generally when somebody doesn't like something, they stop caring about it.

And on that note, SoL is a forum I no longer enjoy. So, I'm done here. And I genuinely think the people who have absolutely nothing at all positive to say about the game and, the people whose posts are composed entirely of whining, really consider leaving (or at least sticking to non-WoW sections). Because if you truly get no enjoyment out of WoW, then why are you here?

With that said, goodbye.
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Old 09-18-2013, 12:35 PM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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Garrosh is no better than Blackhand the Destroyer and only marginally worse than Orgrim Doomhammer.
Minor nitpick just here, everything else is fine.

in ToD even Blackhand is said to have been the one who originally recruited the ogres into the Horde and had ordered Doomhammer to recruit the trolls (this was shown in a Doomhammer flashback IIRC).

By all accounts and purposes, Blackhand was BETTER than Garrosh.

At least he knew the value of other races.
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Old 09-18-2013, 01:30 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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And, honestly, it seems like more Kaldorei have died to the cataclysm and the War of Shifting Sands in their recent history than they've died to the Horde. But they do die to the Horde a lot and that is a valid grievance; I just don't see it as equivalent to the pandaren because of how low the night elves' numbers are said (perhaps implied, must find citation) to be due to their stagnation after the Sundering.
This was never said or implied anywhere. It's fanon. It's always been fanon. So has the whole stagnation bit. Even Blizzard doesn't support it, because it's never been said by them. So has the whole slow reproduction bit. All the men were not sleeping, because all the men are not and were not druids.

Loreology said it's probable that the Night Elves took a bigger hit than any other race in the Third War against the Legion, which means it took a bigger hit than Lordearon, the humans, the High Elves, all of it, because it was part of the Legion invasion.

The old manuals and WoW website said that "countless" Night Elves lived in Darnassus.

Beyond that, Night Elves don't really make a big deal out of dying in battle, or death in general when it comes from external forces. I think Velen's short story made mention of this, and that when Deathwing attacked, it said the Night Elves didn't flinch.

So, I doubt we would see them say how much was lost in general, and I doubt they overly "care" as long as the conflict is over and they stay out of Ashenvale.

That being said, the Orcs DID attack Ashenvale, and destroy much of it, and Ashenvale IS supposedly a sacred forest blessed by Elune, with multiple confirmed creatures, such as some of the night sabers, being guided and influenced and evolved through Elune personally taking interest in them, so yeah, the Vale and Ashenvale forest are pretty heavily comparable and it's wrong for Zhu to not take that into account when he said what he said.

On an interesting note... The Night Elves are apparently in the middle of some big political uprising and tensions now that I reread the Night Elf page on Warcraft's page. It can't be the Highborne, that's a social issue, not a political one, and it's post Stormrage, and therefore post Fandral..

Doubt it will ever be explained.

The Pandearan haven't suffered all that much. If anything, the Sha have been completely purged and they are, for the first time, allowed to live without holding things in. In fact, wasn't it said in Shadows of the Horde that Huojin was heavily frowned on, and that any emotion, even hugging people, was just as bad?

If anything, the Panda's have GAINED more than anyone. They are free of the mists. They are free of the Sha. They are, depending on if another queen is around, free of the Mantid swarms. They were not destroyed by the Mogu who resurged.

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Old 09-18-2013, 01:34 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Originally Posted by Ferlion View Post
On an interesting note... The Night Elves are apparently in the middle of some big political uprising and tensions now that I reread the Night Elf page on Warcraft's page. It can't be the Highborne, that's a social issue, not a political one, and it's post Stormrage, and therefore post Fandral..

Doubt it will ever be explained.
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Now, amid political turmoil, natural disasters, and violent Horde incursions into night elven lands, Malfurion and Tyrande are focused on leading their people into Azeroth’s uncertain future, just as they have done in ages past.
This bit? Couldn't it refer to the Druids of the Flame?
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Old 09-18-2013, 01:37 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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This bit? Couldn't it refer to the Druids of the Flame?
No. Druids are not members of Darnassian government. They are members of the Cenarion Circle, and by default, that takes precedence over Darnassus. It's something Blizzard has been pretty heavy about pushing. It was the whole reason the Circle was created. To stop threats without Government intervening.

More, that isn't really a political problem either, is it? I mean, it's not like they were out recruiting Night Elves and turning them against Malfurion and Tyrande while trying to promote new leaders to further their goals. They just straight up defected and joined the enemy. It's not like things were made particularly tense in Darnassus.

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Old 09-18-2013, 01:54 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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I think it's supposed to be a reference to the things you learn while filling the vials with moonwell water, which would make Smoke right.
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Old 09-18-2013, 01:57 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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I think it's supposed to be a reference to the things you learn while filling the vials with moonwell water, which would make Smoke right.
It's been a really long time, but I don't recall those even mentioning the flame druids. What they did was lament about the past and shit like that.

The only thing I can "possibly" think of being mentioned in Cata was in Shadowglen where two Night Elves are whispering about how odd it was Fandral just vanished and that something didn't seem right, and they just wouldn't talk as soon as you got near.
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Old 09-18-2013, 01:59 PM
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It's been a really long time, but I don't recall those even mentioning the flame druids. What they did was lament about the past and shit like that.
Not the flame druids, but that Fandral disappeared and how his supporters were still claiming that he was right or something like that and had left. I'd have to look at what the last two ghosts say to be sure, though.
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Old 09-18-2013, 02:05 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Considering the pandaren lost pretty much the entire plains-dwelling population of Kun-lai, I'm thinking many people are seriously underestimating how many deaths the pandaren suffered. Remember, "my people" can have more than one definition here. It can regard the entire faction, the entire species or the entire nationality. And I think it's a pretty safe bet to say that the pandaren empire have lost more people due to the war between the horde and the alliance reaching their continent (which includes not just the sha, but arguably also the zandalari, who couldn't have gone to pandaria had the mists not been lifted) than any single member nation in the alliance has in this war.
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Old 09-18-2013, 02:10 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Considering the pandaren lost pretty much the entire plains-dwelling population of Kun-lai, I'm thinking many people are seriously underestimating how many deaths the pandaren suffered. Remember, "my people" can have more than one definition here. It can regard the entire faction, the entire species or the entire nationality. And I think it's a pretty safe bet to say that the pandaren empire have lost more people due to the war between the horde and the alliance reaching their continent (which includes not just the sha, but arguably also the zandalari, who couldn't have gone to pandaria had the mists not been lifted) than any single member nation in the alliance has in this war.
The Alliance and Horde were not responsible for lifting the mists. Nor were they responsible or the Zandalari and thus the Mogu..

If not for the Alliance and Horde war, the Mogu would have straight up jacked the Pandaren and that would have been that. And really, with the Mogu back, and the Zandalari trolls and other troll nations helping, there is no guarantee that the Sha wouldn't have risen anyway.
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Old 09-18-2013, 02:16 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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The Alliance and Horde were not responsible for lifting the mists. Nor were they responsible or the Zandalari and thus the Mogu..

If not for the Alliance and Horde war, the Mogu would have straight up jacked the Pandaren and that would have been that. And really, with the Mogu back, and the Zandalari trolls and other troll nations helping, there is no guarantee that the Sha wouldn't have risen anyway.
Really? What then was responsible for the lifting of the mists? I'm genuinely wondering, because I was under the impression that the spirit of shaohao had lifted the mists because of the arrival of the horde and alliance (which would arguably make shaohao responsible, though I don't think Taran Zhu knows that)

And I doubt the mogu could have 'jacked' the pandaren all that easily. The pandaren now are a lot stronger than those who defeated the mogu empire in the first place, and have the celestials on their side.
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Old 09-18-2013, 02:18 PM
SmokeBlader SmokeBlader is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
What then was responsible for the lifting of the mists? I'm genuinely wondering, because I was under the impression that the spirit of shaohao had lifted the mists because of the arrival of the horde and alliance.
It's still not confirmed. But my in my headcanon the cataclysm did it.
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Old 09-18-2013, 02:20 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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Wasn't it the pearl we'll never hear about again?
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Old 09-18-2013, 02:20 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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It's still not confirmed. But my in my headcanon the cataclysm did it.
Pretty sure the mists were still there when the alliance and horde fleets clashed off the coast, so I doubt the cataclysm could have done it.
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Old 09-18-2013, 02:35 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Really? What then was responsible for the lifting of the mists? I'm genuinely wondering, because I was under the impression that the spirit of shaohao had lifted the mists because of the arrival of the horde and alliance (which would arguably make shaohao responsible, though I don't think Taran Zhu knows that)

And I doubt the mogu could have 'jacked' the pandaren all that easily. The pandaren now are a lot stronger than those who defeated the mogu empire in the first place, and have the celestials on their side.
Wasn't the Mogu empire in decline and without Lei Shen when they took down the Mogu Empire?

And who says the Celestials would take sides?
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Old 09-18-2013, 02:39 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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The Kaldorei have been facing four years of occupation at best, unless you think Durotar belongs to them (laughable) or that the orcs' and humans' unwitting desecration of their forests is "occupation". Theramore's citizens were mostly evacuated (of course, SoO implies that they didn't get away so you might have me on the losses) and wasn't amazingly large.
It's been at least ten years now the Kaldorei have had their land under occupation. Thrall sent the Warsong back into Ashenvale right after the first Hyjal. Which is confirmed to be at least ten years in game and out when Cataclysm was launched.

Theramore was a refugee home and had an active thriving and growing population. You get men and women together and babies will happen. It's also the main (and only) Alliance port on the eastern seaboard of Kalimdor and the only large human settlement on the continent. After discovering that the EK realms survived (sort of), there would have been immigration to and from the EK and Theramore, so in all likelihood, the population would have seen a boost from adventurous people looking to explore or make a new start in a new land. I'd also assume that a large part of the population would have chosen to stay when the Horde army came because they are defending their -home-. Theramore isn't just a military base, but it's also the home of civilians and citizens just looking to make a living. In the lore, Theramore was a rather large city. In times of war, people tended to gather in the best fortified areas they knew of, in this case. Theramore. It would have been a nearly impregnable place for the Horde to seize.


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The statue is irreplaceable for the same reason a sacred tree in Ashenvale might be irreplaceable.

You can defeat the Sha, but you can defeat Arthas. That something can be defeated doesn't make it harmless. Hell, the Horde was defeated in war twice now (five if you count the various iterations not connected to the Doomhammer/Thrall/Garrosh/Vol'jin line of Warchiefs) and they still do a ton of damage when they become a threat.
With all of that, it seems like it would be a simple decision to destroy the Horde as an organization and the orcs as a species since it's the orcs that are the driving force every time. At what point do you say 'enough is enough'?

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Some saurok and some mantid are not equivalent to full-scale Sha outbreaks (major Sha in particular being rare and extremely dangerous) and the deaths of those temples' acolytes. Just because they are used to conflict (something that the Alliance and Horde's races were no stranger to before the Dark Portal) doesn't mean that this isn't devastating. Defending your people, culture, and sacred sites and experiencing the near-decimation of your people, culture, and sacred sites are entirely different things.
These are things the humans, Draenei and Night elves have experienced in various forms from the Horde several times in the last 30 years. So the pandaran's experiences aren't unusual or unique.

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Hillsbrad was already at war for years before its decimation, horrific though it was, and was made up of Lordaeronians who refused to leave after the Scourge - not a potentially high figure given how utterly the plague and Arthas's troops ravaged Lordaeron.

I'd put those losses at a couple hundred, with a little over one hundred surviving refugees, as an estimate. That they had issues with the Forsaken can be summed up as "The Forsaken weren't that large from the start and couldn't put their full might on Hillsbrad." Just an estimate, though. Just as valid as your "hundreds of thousands in two to three years" estimate.
Hillsbrad was in a war of defense against the forsaken. The villages of Hillsbrad, Southshore and Dun Garok were not actively aggressive to the undead. Aside from maybe 2 quests in classic WoW, those three settlements were minding their own business and doing nothing much against the forsaken who were -constantly- attacking those places. The people there were also, as you note, of Lordaeron (aside from the dwarves), so why should they leave their homes? The homes THEY have had all their lives and their ancestors? Who was the aggressor there? Not the living Lordaeronians. It was the forsaken who were the ones pressing the conflict there. All the people of Hillsbrad wanted was for the forsaken to leave them the hell alone.

As for the numbers, I am guessing, but since Southshore is the main port there, it is likely much larger than it looks in game, as it was able to funnel the refugees of two kingdoms through it.

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The Horde has existed as a threat to the Alliance for thirty years now, only six of which it existed as the heartless, bloodthirsty army it was, fourteen of which it spent in captivity, seven of which it wasn't actively hostile, and two of which it resumed active aggression.

So that's eight of thirty years. But the Horde IS efficient at killing when it wants to be, so the casualties are plausible, but "continuous damage" isn't exactly true.
Ever since the Horde arrived on Azeroth, some part of it has been either constantly raiding/skirmishing (much of Classic and BC, and after the Second War with the orc raids on Alliance settlements for food and such, the Broken Front), occupying land they know belongs to someone else (Classic with the occupation of Ashenvale), or involved in outright war (First, Second and Fourth (current) wars). Remember that only part of it was interned in the camps, other parts remained free to raid and such. And after Thrall freed the interned orcs, what's the first thing he did? He demanded that Lordaeron give the orcs good land or he would restart the Second War. Then he had the orcs sack a port or two, kill a fair number of people to steal their ships when he left the EK.

Over all, the Horde's presence has been more of a detriment to the Alliance and Azeroth than a help because when the Horde isn't fighting the newest Big Baddie, parts of it are making numerous pinprick raids on the Alliance or attacking neutrals or attacking some other group in an effort to steal their land/resources. The Horde has never been at peace with its neighbors in its entire history. It's history is one drenched in bloodshed from start to now ingame. The only difference is the amount of blood the Horde is spilling atm.
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Old 09-18-2013, 02:56 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Wasn't the Mogu empire in decline and without Lei Shen when they took down the Mogu Empire?
The empire was in decline yes. But, in its 'resurrected' state, it's still a lot weaker than it was declined. Sure, Lei Shen counts for a lot. But that doesn't make up for the loss of the vast majority of their holdings and population. And that's if all mogu would follow Lei Shen. Given what we see in-game, that's likely not the case, with most mogu clans working for themselves or Xin. Remember, Lei Shen had a pretty pathethic number of followers by the time we encountered him on the isle of thunder.

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And who says the Celestials would take sides?
The mogu are somehow corrupting the images of the celestials, tried to kill Niuzao in MoP and we know Xuen and Lei Shen fought before. From what we can tell, the celestials and mogu are enemies, and both sides take that fairly seriously.

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*snip*
Since you seem to speak of the whole of the alliance, I'm going to repeat what I said in an earlier post:

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Remember, "my people" can have more than one definition here. It can regard the entire faction, the entire species or the entire nationality.
In addition, we're only talking about the deaths that the horde caused under Garrosh' reign. The full quote:

"We've all suffered from his atrocities. My people more than any other."

He's not talking about the combined deaths of the first, second and assorted interim wars. He's only talking about the horde under Garrosh.
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Old 09-18-2013, 03:01 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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Since you seem to speak of the whole of the alliance, I'm going to repeat what I said in an earlier post:



In addition, we're only talking about the deaths that the horde caused under Garrosh' reign. The full quote:

"We've all suffered from his atrocities. My people more than any other."

He's not talking about the combined deaths of the first, second and assorted interim wars. He's only talking about the horde under Garrosh.
Eh. I look at the big picture of history between the Alliance and Horde. Garrosh's war is only a relatively small part of the whole interaction between the factions.

With the time thing, I believe the First War was retconned from lasting for ten years to all of that happening in a single year. The destruction of the most powerful human kingdom on Azeroth in less than a year... I'd say that is a hell of a lot more destructive than what the Pandaren faced. THEY still have their lands and people and additionally have a lot of problems cleaned up. Stormwind, or the kingdom of Azeroth it was known as then, was pretty much wiped out.

For the Alliance, Garrosh was just one Warchief among several. This was noted by Varian's comment about the Horde has caused many heinous crimes (I believe that was the quote). So the Horde's past actions are apparently remembered, for now.

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Old 09-18-2013, 03:06 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Eh. I look at the big picture of history between the Alliance and Horde. Garrosh's war is only a relatively small part of the whole interaction between the factions.

With the time thing, I believe the First War was retconned from lasting for ten years to all of that happening in a single year. The destruction of the most powerful human kingdom on Azeroth in less than a year... I'd say that is a hell of a lot more destructive than what the Pandaren faced. THEY still have their lands and people and additionally have a lot of problems cleaned up. Stormwind, or the kingdom of Azeroth it was known as then, was pretty much wiped out.
Most certainly (and I doubt any sane mind would dispute that), but at that point you're no longer addressing Taran Zhu's words. The only thing that was under discussion at that moment was what to do with Garrosh, not the horde over its entire history.
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Old 09-18-2013, 03:41 PM
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Most certainly (and I doubt any sane mind would dispute that), but at that point you're no longer addressing Taran Zhu's words. The only thing that was under discussion at that moment was what to do with Garrosh, not the horde over its entire history.
Blasted old fool Taran Zhu! Im just gonna say you damn right you fat fluffy panda because I know he will somehow manage to look like he's right in the end.
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Old 09-18-2013, 03:51 PM
Kynrind Kynrind is offline

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I dunno. If you're going by that, the relatively short time Pandaria has been open, then the pandarens have taken a lot of damage in a relatively short period of time, but recognize that is ALL the history the pandarens have had with the Horde. The Alliance has had a much longer history with the Horde and pretty much all of it is bad. You can't or shouldn't discount that and say Taren has a stronger claim just because the pandarens history with the Horde is so much shorter. If there is a line, the pandarens should be at the end of it.

If he's to take Gartrosh, I could see a claim being advanced because they are the most neutral group of those aggrieved, but if you want a neutral party, why not invite the Argents? They have a strong track record of being and maintaining their neutrality. THEY can be impartial unlike even the pandarens cannot be.
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Old 09-18-2013, 04:46 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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I dunno. If you're going by that, the relatively short time Pandaria has been open, then the pandarens have taken a lot of damage in a relatively short period of time, but recognize that is ALL the history the pandarens have had with the Horde. The Alliance has had a much longer history with the Horde and pretty much all of it is bad. You can't or shouldn't discount that and say Taren has a stronger claim just because the pandarens history with the Horde is so much shorter. If there is a line, the pandarens should be at the end of it.
You do realize that the entire reason there is a conflict over who gets to have garrosh is because neither side is going to let the other take garrosh, right? Sure, the alliance has a stronger position globally at the moment, but at that moment in that room, they're a lot more evenly matched. Is Varian really going to put his son in danger solely because he doesn't want the other side to get a kill? Having Taran Zhu take him lets both sides save face and at least pretend that they're fighting over ethical issues, and not for the sake of their egos.

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If he's to take Gartrosh, I could see a claim being advanced because they are the most neutral group of those aggrieved, but if you want a neutral party, why not invite the Argents? They have a strong track record of being and maintaining their neutrality. THEY can be impartial unlike even the pandarens cannot be.
Most members of the argent crusade were members of the alliance or the scarlet crusade until pretty recently (with former horde members being a bit of a minority). Most other 'neutral' factions have similar hang-ups, because neutral in world of warcraft is pretty much another word for "member of the alliance, but not stuck in this annoying faction system"
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Old 09-18-2013, 04:59 PM
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You do realize that the entire reason there is a conflict over who gets to have garrosh is because neither side is going to let the other take garrosh, right? Sure, the alliance has a stronger position globally at the moment, but at that moment in that room, they're a lot more evenly matched. Is Varian really going to put his son in danger solely because he doesn't want the other side to get a kill? Having Taran Zhu take him lets both sides save face and at least pretend that they're fighting over ethical issues, and not for the sake of their egos.
He will if he values justice and retribution. Anduin is no-longer in potential danger (and why the fuck was he there to begin with?) so Varian shouldn't hesitate at all to claim Garrosh.
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Old 09-18-2013, 05:10 PM
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He's getting his justice anyway. Without pissing off the Horde and causing an international incident over who gets to tell him 'you suck'. That's GOOD leadership. Avoiding conflict SUCCESSFULLY and still getting what you want.

At least in this example.
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