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  #7201  
Old 06-22-2017, 07:45 PM
AndyJP AndyJP is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
In what story? Frozen Throne?

The Undead are at war with the Demomic - does that count as uniquely Warcraft? The final battle between Arthas-Ner'zhul and Illidan-Gul'dan cements it.

The rivalry between warlock and necromancer stretches back to the original Warcraft, when they cooperated yet belonged to very different ideologies.
Yeah the whole shebang, and that's a good example. I had grown tired of all the adapted mythologies and HP Lovecraft stuff over the past few expansions that I need to be reminded of some aspects of the lore that isn't a ripoff
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  #7202  
Old 06-23-2017, 02:20 AM
Almed Almed is offline

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Reminder that the Scourge as envisioned by Kel'thuzad is better than the Forsaken.

The Scourge stands for building a better, more unified, world. The Forsaken stands invading whereever out of some Humans or whatever being mean to you.
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  #7203  
Old 06-25-2017, 03:14 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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I theorize that the section of the Tomb of Sargeras that collapsed in TFT after Illidan and Maiev did their stuff is the appropriately named "The Collapse" area in the raid, especially since when entering it, Illidan will say:

"Few understood my use of the naga to obtain the Eye of Sargeras, but it was a necessary tactic to ensure the future of Azeroth. Let nothing stop you from doing what needs to be done!"

Now, a few comments:

- So yeah, I think this is that section. Could anyone that has property explored the further areas and not gotten stuck on Harjatan tell me if there are any clues as to where the Chamber of the Eye and the Scepter could be?

- I'm very happy Chronicle 3 will explain the nature of Illidan's allegiance with the naga.

- So apparently Illidan himself believes he was doing that stuff for the good of Azeroth and not, you know, for power. Oh Illidan.
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  #7204  
Old 06-25-2017, 10:15 AM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Originally Posted by AndyJP View Post
I've been wondering, is there anything (non-specific) in the story that is uniquely Warcraft? Something that wasn't an obvious or intentional homage/reference?
Death Knights allying themselves with Paladins, only to slaughter them afterwards.
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  #7205  
Old 06-25-2017, 12:53 PM
Apep Apep is offline

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Originally Posted by Ethenil View Post
- I'm very happy Chronicle 3 will explain the nature of Illidan's allegiance with the naga.
Where was this confirmed, because I'm always down for more naga info, even it it is through association with Illidan.
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  #7206  
Old 06-25-2017, 01:21 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Originally Posted by Apep View Post
Where was this confirmed, because I'm always down for more naga info, even it it is through association with Illidan.
Matt Burns said on Twitter we would know Vashj's reasons for joining Illidan.
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  #7207  
Old 06-25-2017, 01:23 PM
Kiraser Kiraser is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apep View Post
Where was this confirmed, because I'm always down for more naga info, even it it is through association with Illidan.
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  #7208  
Old 06-28-2017, 05:20 AM
OnyxWatcher OnyxWatcher is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
In what story? Frozen Throne?

The Undead are at war with the Demomic - does that count as uniquely Warcraft? The final battle between Arthas-Ner'zhul and Illidan-Gul'dan cements it.

The rivalry between warlock and necromancer stretches back to the original Warcraft, when they cooperated yet belonged to very different ideologies.
Demons vs. Undeads is as old as the world. Examples are at least "Might and Magic" and "Warhammer" universes.
Arthas is based on Lord Haart ("Arthas" is Haart's anagram - check it out and you'll shit bricks).
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  #7209  
Old 07-02-2017, 02:33 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Since we were discussing this a while ago, I was wondering, do you guys think the Terrace of the Moon in the Tomb might once have been above ground? I noticed that the ceiling is rock, and, well, a terrace is usually an open-air space.
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  #7210  
Old 07-02-2017, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethenil View Post
Since we were discussing this a while ago, I was wondering, do you guys think the Terrace of the Moon in the Tomb might once have been above ground? I noticed that the ceiling is rock, and, well, a terrace is usually an open-air space.
Does it look like finished / manufactured / polished stone, or rough cave rock?

If it looks finished it may have been a 'magic' terrace that lets you change the appearance of the surrounding area for the view.
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  #7211  
Old 07-02-2017, 11:26 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Imo, it looks rough, but maybe not.
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  #7212  
Old 07-02-2017, 09:16 PM
Azshande Azshande is offline

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Originally Posted by Ethenil View Post
- So apparently Illidan himself believes he was doing that stuff for the good of Azeroth and not, you know, for power. Oh Illidan.
It's more like the writers are trying to retcon Illidan into an hero and trying to pass his actions as being for the "greater good" when that was not the case in the original lore.

He killed Naisha and the rest of the watchers (and attempted to do the same to Maiev) for nothing more than personal vengeance. That's a inherently selfish reason and none of his actions there helped to weaken the Legion or affected Azeroth in a posivite way.

But it was still understandable coming from Illidan - The watchers kept him locked and forgotten bellow the earth for millennia, why would he waste the opportunity to make them pay for all the suffering they inflicted upon him in the most ironic way possible?

These selfish decisions made him more "human", therefore, more relatable.

I'm worried about what sort of retcons they will pull out of their asses in the next Chronicles book. Terror of the Tides is going to be completely rewritten for sure, biased towards Illidan. There's a reason they barely hinted about it in this expansion, and one of these few instances had its lore incorrect (Maiev says that Naisha died while defending the temple, with no mention of Illidan at all), most likely in purpose.

I miss when the story wasn't completely one-sided.
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  #7213  
Old 07-02-2017, 11:02 PM
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Interestingly, a discussion on 4chan's /tg/ I came across is now relevant:







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  #7214  
Old 07-02-2017, 11:11 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Oh god, that pro wrestling comparison.
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  #7215  
Old 07-02-2017, 11:31 PM
Almed Almed is offline

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I wonder what we'll need to get Blizzard to stop.

Surely, you can have a man like Illidan fight the Legion WITHOUT dancing around how much of a dastardly man he was (see how buddy buddy the likes of Khadgar are with him).

Last edited by Almed; 07-02-2017 at 11:55 PM..
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  #7216  
Old 07-02-2017, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Almed View Post
I wonder what we'll need to get Blizzard to stop.

Surely, you can have a man like Illidan fight the Legion WITHOUT dancing around how much of a dartardly man he was (see how buddy buddy the likes of Khadgar are with him).
I just don't understand how Blizz NEVER seems to understand moderation, I can't think of one thing they've done related to characterization or plot development that hasn't been a MASSIVE swing one direction or the other.

World Building, Art, Design... all great, but character behavior, dialogue, story stuff? Dreadful.

Also, there was that thing where they gave really high voices to big monsters, like Gurtogg Bloodboil in TBC, are they still doing that?
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  #7217  
Old 07-02-2017, 11:54 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Nothing in the game apart from Xe'ra makes him innocent. Time and time again, both in the novel and in the flashbacks we see he isn't at all good.

If Xe'ra is his fangirl, so be it. That's her problem.
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  #7218  
Old 07-03-2017, 12:03 PM
Krainz Krainz is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azshande View Post
It's more like the writers are trying to retcon Illidan into an hero and trying to pass his actions as being for the "greater good" when that was not the case in the original lore.

He killed Naisha and the rest of the watchers (and attempted to do the same to Maiev) for nothing more than personal vengeance. That's a inherently selfish reason and none of his actions there helped to weaken the Legion or affected Azeroth in a posivite way.

But it was still understandable coming from Illidan - The watchers kept him locked and forgotten bellow the earth for millennia, why would he waste the opportunity to make them pay for all the suffering they inflicted upon him in the most ironic way possible?

These selfish decisions made him more "human", therefore, more relatable.

I'm worried about what sort of retcons they will pull out of their asses in the next Chronicles book. Terror of the Tides is going to be completely rewritten for sure, biased towards Illidan. There's a reason they barely hinted about it in this expansion, and one of these few instances had its lore incorrect (Maiev says that Naisha died while defending the temple, with no mention of Illidan at all), most likely in purpose.

I miss when the story wasn't completely one-sided.
I don't think Illidan's acts of selfishness were ever retconned. I mean, you're just accepting Xe'ra's perspective as your own, and doing the exact same thing you're criticizing: one-siding the story.
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  #7219  
Old 07-03-2017, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethenil View Post
Nothing in the game apart from Xe'ra makes him innocent. Time and time again, both in the novel and in the flashbacks we see he isn't at all good.

If Xe'ra is his fangirl, so be it. That's her problem.
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I don't think Illidan's acts of selfishness were ever retconned. I mean, you're just accepting Xe'ra's perspective as your own, and doing the exact same thing you're criticizing: one-siding the story.
This exactly. The novel and Black Rook quest both show him being an absolute bastard. There's nothing that really changed about his personality.
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  #7220  
Old 07-03-2017, 03:49 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Here, this is the Terrace of the Moon in the Tomb of Sargeras. Notice the rock ceiling. I've also included the region outside above it.
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  #7221  
Old 07-03-2017, 06:16 PM
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We have Khadgar and the others in the Superhero Club palling around with Illidan. It's no better than if Arthas came back with talk about how he's totally trying to stop the Legion and they palled around with him.

Illidan being alive is a mistake.
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  #7222  
Old 07-04-2017, 01:46 AM
Azshande Azshande is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krainz View Post
I mean, you're just accepting Xe'ra's perspective as your own
But...I didn't even mention Xe'ra.
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I don't think Illidan's acts of selfishness were ever retconned..
I didn't imply that, sorry for not being clear. English isn't my primary language and i also suck at explaining things.

You are right - his actions weren't retconned, but the motivations behind them were.
He originally killed the watchers and enslaved Outland because of vengeance and power hungriness, respectively, but now it was retconned so he did these things because they were necessary evils to save the universe (a.k.a "for the greater good"™)

Actually, i don't know how it applies to the case of the watchers, but since Blizz purposely tried to avoid mentioning these events and soft retconned Naisha's death (By having Maiev say that she died defending the temple while not mentioning Illidan at all, which makes no sense since she blames him in every single opportunity and in this case he was directly reponsible for the death of her friends) it's safe to assume that barely anything shown in Terror of the Tides will remain as canon after the release of the new Chronicles book. Illidan was portrayed as pretty vile in that campaign - even from his perspective - which doesn't fit their new vision of the character at all. So let's just retcon it, armirite?
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  #7223  
Old 07-04-2017, 02:41 AM
Whitrix Whitrix is offline

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Originally Posted by Azshande View Post
But...I didn't even mention Xe'ra.
I didn't imply that, sorry for not being clear. English isn't my primary language and i also suck at explaining things.

You are right - his actions weren't retconned, but the motivations behind them were.
He originally killed the watchers and enslaved Outland because of vengeance and power hungriness, respectively, but now it was retconned so he did these things because they were necessary evils to save the universe (a.k.a "for the greater good"™)

Actually, i don't know how it applies to the case of the watchers, but since Blizz purposely tried to avoid mentioning these events and soft retconned Naisha's death (By having Maiev say that she died defending the temple while not mentioning Illidan at all, which makes no sense since she blames him in every single opportunity and in this case he was directly reponsible for the death of her friends) it's safe to assume that barely anything shown in Terror of the Tides will remain as canon after the release of the new Chronicles book. Illidan was portrayed as pretty vile in that campaign - even from his perspective - which doesn't fit their new vision of the character at all. So let's just retcon it, armirite?
I think you look too much into your own view of Illidan.
He has always been a power hungry asshole who wanted to do the good thing with the evil method and the more power he gets the better he'll accomplish his goals. That hasn't changed one bit. They just added that he's so centered on himself that he didn't trust anyone with his machinations against the Legion in TFT. He has always been portrayed as being against the Legion, but of course if they were going to kill him he was more than happy to be aligned with them in the short term (and I think that has happened 2 or 3 times already).

"Their new vision of the character" does not exist as far as I know. The only difference is that now he has a light crystal fanboy who could be wrong. Hell, there's an entire book on Illidan about how much of an idiot he is. Even in this patch, the entire expansion was about how to close the portal the Legion opened to Azeroth and Illidan just opened the biggest ever portal the Legion could ever hope to have to reach the planet.

The onlly thing I see as bad in this is that Khadgar either is too much of a nice guy or didn't ask about who Illidan is and what he has done before and that's why he and Velen are so happy being at his side. For all we know Velen could want Illidan killed for enslaving the broken on Outland. But of course we're talking about the man who didn't care about the draenei genocide at the hands of the orcs back then.
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  #7224  
Old 07-04-2017, 06:05 AM
Almed Almed is offline

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WC3 to TBC had Illidan backstab his brother and join the Highborne to get his fix, devour a demonic skull after just running for it on a Death Knight's say-so, work under one of the Legion's leaders where his Naga friends trash Night Elf villages and he himself tries to destroy the North Pole, run away to Outland after failing, works under the same Legion leader until failing again, runs back to Outland where he goes total 3rd World Dictator.

Hardly a lifetime of trying stop the Legion by doing hard decisions.
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  #7225  
Old 07-04-2017, 07:00 AM
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WC3 to TBC had Illidan backstab his brother and join the Highborne to get his fix, devour a demonic skull after just running for it on a Death Knight's say-so, work under one of the Legion's leaders where his Naga friends trash Night Elf villages and he himself tries to destroy the North Pole, run away to Outland after failing, works under the same Legion leader until failing again, runs back to Outland where he goes total 3rd World Dictator.

Hardly a lifetime of trying stop the Legion by doing hard decisions.
And I didn't say he lived his whole life being a good guy trying to stop the Legion doing hard decisions .

He backstabbed the Legion and his brother multiple times in the WotA. He also created the second Well of Eternity because he knew the Legion would return and he believed the world needed the power of the well to stop them.

He devoured the skull of Gul'dan because he wanted power and had the excuse of "it will heal the forest I swear!" (which I think it didn't or it started but the continued presence of the Shadow Council stopped its regeneration).

Both times he worked under Kil'jaeden was under fear of being killed, like I said, and I don't remember well but maybe he spouted some nonsense to Malfurion about wanting to kill the Lich King to help the world (typical Illidan excuse).

When he fled to Outland he destroyed the Legion presence there and when he returned there he started his crazy plan of going to Argus to kill Kil'jaeden and Archimonde, while also crippling Nathreza and at least another Legion-controlled world.

I'm not saying Illidan is a good guy who defies the Legion at every possible situation making hard decisions. I'm saying that Illidan opposes the Legion from the beginning 10k years ago at the WotA. He allies with them to gain power, backstab them or at least to stay alive and in the way sacrifices other people for his own benefit.
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