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Old 06-28-2017, 03:30 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Default The magic system of a dead universe...

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
When I first came here, I joked about how "Bloodlust" lore had become somewhat schizophrenic, embodying both the orcs' bloodthirsty corruption and also their noble savagery. The most demonstrable example was the fact that WC3 shared the exact same spell with ogre-magi (warlocks) and heroic shaman. It's still iconic to both groups.

Lore on the conundrum is rare and often at odds with other depictions. I wish we had more written material on it.

This is actually quite more complicated that it might seem at first glance. Back in Warcraft III, there was actually no particular contrariety, out of two simple, yet often forgotten reasons.

First of all, during the era of Warcraft III, ogre magi were not warlocks, they were mages, using arcane. The Warcraft RPG specifically called them sorcerers.

More importantly, though, it is important to remember that back in Warcraft III, shamanism was part of arcane arts, just as necromancy, the arts of the elves and the Kirin Tor, the elemental arts of the Liches, etc.

The spirit lodge is a place of quiet contemplation where shamans
and troll witch doctors meditate and refine their mastery of arcane
magic.


This is imperative when considering the whole magic system of the era, and how seemingly contradicting (in origin) spells could have been so similar, be it the frost spells of the Liches and the Archmagi, the Warlock fiery spells and the pyroblasts of the Archmagi, and so on. As even though used by different actors in different ways, these all had one underlying root. They were all arcane magic, ultimately coming from one, single source;

The Burning Legion is a terrifying nomadic army comprised of insidious demonic beings and horrifying creatures, gathered from countless burnt-out worlds and dimensions. It is rumored that the immortal Legion has existed since the beginning of the universe and that the Eredar - the leaders of the Legion - somehow destroyed their own home dimension, thereby inadvertently setting magic loose throughout all creation. Cursed to wander the countless dimensions of the Twisting nether consuming every last trace of magic it finds, the Burning Legion has ravaged innumerable worlds in order to sate its insatiable hunger for magic. Many eons ago, the Legion attempted to drain the world of Azeroth of its innate magic, but was narrowly defeated. Now, after nearly ten thousand years, the Legion has returned to finish-off Azeroth for good. The Legion uses its unstoppable melee fighters and the aphotic green fires of entropy itself as its primary tactical weapons.


The source being a completely different dimension. Yes, back when this universe was still alive, the Eredar were not the creatures of our reality, and magic was something foreign, alien. And, something heavily implied in The Last Guardian, it was possibly magic itself that was the flaw Sargeras had concluded to be the reason behind creation's failure.

--------------------------------------------------------
As such, Bloodlust wasn't really problematic formerly. It only turned problematic when Shamanism was completely separated from Arcane.

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Old 06-28-2017, 03:41 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Wait, what's that second blizzard quote from? I'm not seeing it in the manual.

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
First of all, during the era of Warcraft III, ogre magi were not warlocks, they were mages, using arcane. The Warcraft RPG specifically specifically called them sorcerers.

[...]

As such, Bloodlust wasn't really problematic formerly. It only turned problematic when Shamanism was completely separated from Arcane.
I'm pretty sure it was the RPG that first made them completely separate things, so using RPG materials in your statement of prior lore seems contradictory.
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Old 06-28-2017, 03:58 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Wait, what's that second blizzard quote from? I'm not seeing it in the manual.

https://www.neoseeker.com/Articles/G...aft_III/7.html


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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
I'm pretty sure it was the RPG that first made them completely separate things, so using RPG materials in your statement of prior lore seems contradictory.
Didn't that happen only with the later works? I'd have to recheck, but I do not remember the 2003 works making them completely separate.

Still, the point was more about showing that the ogre magi were nowhere implied to be warlocks (only) during the early 2000s. Warcraft III itself had them basically blue warriors who could use Bloodlust.

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Old 06-28-2017, 04:09 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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It doesn't surprise me to hear ogre-magi were treated as mages so early on, but I never considered such because the old Altars of Storms were still very connected to warlockery.

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Once used to channel the demonic energies of the Burning Legion, these altars have been retooled by troll masons. Using the rediscovered elemental abilities of the shamans, these altars serve as a kind of "gate" to revive fallen warriors. When a hero dies, his spirit can be recalled at these altars to continue service for the horde.
I don't think the WC3 manual said anything about ogre-magi. But the map still had Caer Darrow in ruins, and the old Altars of Storms had a demonic influence still, so I figured the runestone-altars-ogremage connection was still in play.

But really, it was less about the specific spell for Bloodlust and more about the thematics. When you do a simple search for "bloodlust" in the WC3 manual, you get a stream of steady results:

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Outnumbered and driven mad by the curse of their bloodlust, the orcs inevitably fell before the wrath of the Alliance.
Quote:
The Dragonmaw clan's defeat signaled the end of the horde – and the end of the orcs' furious bloodlust.
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Antonidas theorized that the orcs' communal lethargy was not actually a disease, but a long-term racial withdrawal from the volatile Warlock magics that had made them fearsome, bloodlusted warriors.
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[Grom Hellscream] has struggled with the rage and bloodlust within his heart for many long years.
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[Mannoroth] may be the original source of their bloodlust and corruption, but this has yet to be proven.
Except for one noble and heroic outlier...

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Shaman can cause such overwhelming bloodlust in their brethren that affected warriors actually increase in size and power for short periods of time.
Begone, wicked curse of bloodlust! Let us return to our peaceful and shamanistic way of life... with bloodlust!
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Old 06-28-2017, 04:14 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Man, that's pre-release info from an obviously outdated version, from a non-public source, relayed and reworded by someone who isn't a blizzard employee. It'd be a hard sell to state that that interpretation was intended at the time, let alone still intended to be canon for the final product (though it would definitely explain the dialogue for that one cutscene, which doesn't really make sense in the context of warcraft III-established materials alone, and gives some background of where the heck the RPG's take on arcane magic came from)

Not to say it's not an interesting article. Never seen that old infernal design before.

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Didn't that happen only with the later works? I'd have to recheck, but I do not remember the 2003 works making them completely separate.
Page 58 of the 1st edition core rulebook:

Healers form the core of all the divine spellcasting organizations in Kalimdor, from priests of the Holy Light to druids of the wild to shamans.


page 93

Though divine spellcasters, Shamans do not shy from physical conflict
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Old 06-28-2017, 04:14 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Begone, wicked curse of bloodlust! Let us return to our peaceful and shamanistic way of life... with bloodlust!
I don't think Warcraft III portrayed the pre-Horde orcs as peaceful. A race of savage warriors and all that.

That being said, I suppose that thematically, it could be easily differentiated as "bloodlust bad when pernament" and "bloodlust good when for a short period of time".
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Old 06-28-2017, 04:25 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
I don't think Warcraft III portrayed the pre-Horde orcs as peaceful. A race of savage warriors and all that.

That being said, I suppose that thematically, it could be easily differentiated as "bloodlust bad when pernament" and "bloodlust good when for a short period of time".
You know how The Last Guardian got so nitty-gritty with the Fireball spells, and the way in which Khadgar reverse engineered a Far Seeing spell to get the visions he wanted?

I'd love that kind of detail in depicting pre-corruption orcish shamans and their interactions with Bloodlust. As of now, those WoD movies show us Frostwolves who shun even temporary bloodlust. And remarkably, I think it's the first depiction of bloodlust in which an orc is so overcome that he can't discern friend from foe.
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Old 06-28-2017, 04:25 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Man, that's pre-release info from an obviously outdated version, from a non-public source, relayed and reworded by someone who isn't a blizzard employee. It'd be a hard sell to state that that interpretation was intended at the time, let alone still intended to be canon for the final product (though it would definitely explain the dialogue for that one cutscene, which doesn't really make sense in the context of warcraft III-established materials alone, and gives some background of where the heck the RPG's take on arcane magic came from)
Eh, so? It was heavily implied in several Warcraft III associated works (The Art of Warcrat, The Last Guardian, Warcraft III itself), and at the same, there's no indication whatsoever that this would be unintended at the time of Warcraft III.

And moreover, the information about the races was not relayed and reworded, it was directly pasted from a press kit, written directly by a Blizzard employee.

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Old 06-28-2017, 05:59 PM
Almed Almed is offline

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I've pointed this out before, but WC3 suggested there wasn't a sure gap between "Proper" magic as practied by the Kirin Tor and "Demon" magic as praticed by the Scourge and Burning Legion. You had Archimonde's speech in Dalaran where he chastises the wizards for using what he calls ''their'' fire. The Blood Mage's bio in both the manual and official site talk about him studying demon associated magic with the manual noting them abadoning water and ice (linked with the Kirin Tor) for fire and heat (linked with the demonic). Overall, WC3 had what I would call a theme that at least arcane magic was, if not demonic, still inherently chaotic and transformative if dumped on you too much.

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Old 06-28-2017, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Almed View Post
I've pointed this out before, but WC3 suggested there wasn't a sure gap between "Proper" magic as practied by the Kirin Tor and "Demon" magic as praticed by the Scourge and Burning Legion. You had Archimonde's speech in Dalaran where he chastises the wizards for using what he calls ''their'' fire. The Blood Mage's bio in both the manual and official site talk about him studying demon associated magic with the manual noting them abadoning water and ice (linked with the Kirin Tor) for fire and heat (linked with the demonic). Overall, WC3 had what I would call a theme that at least arcane magic was, if not demonic, still inherently chaotic and transformative if dumped on you too much.
That was pretty much the case even into WoW. All of the old mage quests from Vanilla, and I think a few books from WotLK, made it a point to emphasize the arcane was a corrupting force, fel just expedited the process.
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Old 06-29-2017, 12:22 AM
Almed Almed is offline

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The RPG talked about Fel being a corrupted form of Arcane too. But all of it went out the window with Chronicles establishing Arcane as the orderly enemy of the chaotic Fel. Which is weak in my book since it doesn't fit with the portrayal for it in a large chunk of lore.
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Old 06-29-2017, 01:29 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Almed View Post
I've pointed this out before, but WC3 suggested there wasn't a sure gap between "Proper" magic as practied by the Kirin Tor and "Demon" magic as praticed by the Scourge and Burning Legion. You had Archimonde's speech in Dalaran where he chastises the wizards for using what he calls ''their'' fire. The Blood Mage's bio in both the manual and official site talk about him studying demon associated magic with the manual noting them abadoning water and ice (linked with the Kirin Tor) for fire and heat (linked with the demonic). Overall, WC3 had what I would call a theme that at least arcane magic was, if not demonic, still inherently chaotic and transformative if dumped on you too much.
I think that is an misinterpretation. See, while Shamanism, the Kirin Tor magics, Necromancy, the magic of the witch doctors is all described as arcane magic at some point in the manual, the demonic energies (or warlock magics) are never described as such. While they were still certainly magic, unlike say druidism which is never described as such in the manual, they were probably the most distinct from the rest.

The fire magic association was really only an association, fire is still an element, albeit one that is probably most dangerous and corruptive.
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Old 06-29-2017, 06:49 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Eh, so? It was heavily implied in several Warcraft III associated works (The Art of Warcrat, The Last Guardian, Warcraft III itself), and at the same, there's no indication whatsoever that this would be unintended at the time of Warcraft III.
Implied, yes. Stated, no. And that's relevant.

Remember the WoD rewrite of Gorgrond? A significant chunk of story got removed, including the Iron Horde having some sort of death cannon. However, because this change happened so late in production, it's not only mentioned in all sorts of pre-release material, it's also referenced in the game itself. Most notably, the cinematic at Shattrath.
Does this make the questline that was removed from the game canon?

It also helps that a lot of the sources for this aren't the most reliable as lore sources. The RPG description of the TFT campaign[1] and the actual TFT campaign[2] have very little in common, for instance. Just because the former seems to have affected the development of warcraft lore[3] doesn't make it canon. The Art of Warcraft is obviously intended more as an art-focused book than a lore source, and it has a focus on previous stages of development. That leaves the Last Guardian and the destruction of Dalaran cinematic. IIRC, the former couches it in in-universe speculation. The latter is definitely the strongest evidence, but given how many stages of development the game went through, and the fact that cinematics are not easy to change (See: Talador cinematic), makes even that somewhat questionable.

I'm not saying it can't be intended to have been canon at the time. It's very likely to have been intended to be so during at least the making of the Dalaran cinematic. I'm saying I'm not seeing enough evidence to accept it as canon-upon-release with reasonable certainty.

[1] Illidan tries to become the lich king, recruits a small group of nomadic terrorists that call themselves blood elves, stopped by a coalition of night elf and alliance forces in Dalaran, driven off the planet in force.
[2] Illidan tries to kill the Lich King, works with the alliance in Dalaran, recruits a large group of betrayed Kirin Tor elves that call themselves blood elves, leaves planet mostly voluntarily.
[3] Night Elves as alliance members supposedly got its start here according to the RPG.

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And moreover, the information about the races was not relayed and reworded, it was directly pasted from a press kit, written directly by a Blizzard employee.
Wouldn't the sentence be 'The information' rather than 'some information' if that was the case?

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And remarkably, I think it's the first depiction of bloodlust in which an orc is so overcome that he can't discern friend from foe.
There was one incident with Thrall in Lord of the Clans.

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
I think that is an misinterpretation. See, while Shamanism, the Kirin Tor magics, Necromancy, the magic of the witch doctors is all described as arcane magic at some point in the manual, the demonic energies (or warlock magics) are never described as such. While they were still certainly magic, unlike say druidism which is never described as such in the manual, they were probably the most distinct from the rest.
The early RPG books were the once to establish that, and most of the references in early WoW seem to be inspired by that. The Three Rules of Magic (makes you old, makes you a dick, attracts demons) for instance.
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Old 06-29-2017, 07:22 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Ooh, what happened in LotC?
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Old 06-29-2017, 07:45 AM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Ooh, what happened in LotC?
It was a minor thing. Thrall lost control during training with sergeant, such that he started fighting as if it were a real battle, fighting with killing intent.
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Old 06-29-2017, 07:52 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Implied, yes. Stated, no. And that's relevant.
It was stated in a number of official preview materials, materials that were not disproved well until The Burning Crusade.

But I see we are each using a different method here. Untrue until directly proven, as is the case with the law and its enforcement, and true until directly disproven. Clearly, we won't reach similar results.

Quote:
Remember the WoD rewrite of Gorgrond? A significant chunk of story got removed, including the Iron Horde having some sort of death cannon. However, because this change happened so late in production, it's not only mentioned in all sorts of pre-release material, it's also referenced in the game itself. Most notably, the cinematic at Shattrath.
Does this make the questline that was removed from the game canon?
That's not even remotely similar. The information in these press kits was not removed, it was simply not repeated again in the game itself. Furthermore, there was nothing present in the game that would contradict it, on the contrary, there were implications it still held true. Hence true until directly disproven. These materials were authentic, and since there had been no formal statement or removal of their status well until The Burning Crusade, it can be safely held they stayed such until that point.

Quote:
It also helps that a lot of the sources for this aren't the most reliable as lore sources. The RPG description of the TFT campaign[1] and the actual TFT campaign[2] have very little in common, for instance. Just because the former seems to have affected the development of warcraft lore[3] doesn't make it canon. The Art of Warcraft is obviously intended more as an art-focused book than a lore source, and it has a focus on previous stages of development. That leaves the Last Guardian and the destruction of Dalaran cinematic. IIRC, the former couches it in in-universe speculation. The latter is definitely the strongest evidence, but given how many stages of development the game went through, and the fact that cinematics are not easy to change (See: Talador cinematic), makes even that somewhat questionable.

Except that part has nothing to do with the creation of the cinematic whatsoever, it's all sound, which we know was recorded very late (the 2001 ECTS preview did not have the sound completed yet). Additionaly, it is not even about the sound, it's really only about the text, as it's the subtitles that tell us what's Archimonde actually saying.

If Blizzard had really deemed this part not accurate, they could have easily removed it or altered it. But they hadn't, it was still the same in the final release. There's no reason to doubt its authenticity.

Quote:
I'm not saying it can't be intended to have been canon at the time. It's very likely to have been intended to be so during at least the making of the Dalaran cinematic. I'm saying I'm not seeing enough evidence to accept it as canon-upon-release with reasonable certainty.
Well, given the reeasoning provided above, can't agree there.


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Wouldn't the sentence be 'The information' rather than 'some information' if that was the case?
This is the 2002 press kit, the pre-release version. Although the entry about the Burning Legion is no longer present, for they were removed as a playable race some time ago, the text for the remaining four races is nearly identical to that found in that preview page.




Sadly, I can't find any scan of a pre-2002 press kit. A friend of mine owns one in German, but it might take some time getting it.
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Old 06-29-2017, 07:53 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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It was a minor thing. Thrall lost control during training with sergeant, such that he started fighting as if it were a real battle, fighting with killing intent.
I do think I read that part now that you mentioned it, and it is significant.

Yeah. I think I need a short story that describes Bloodlust the shaman spell, developed by one of Thrall's loyal shaman who convincingly demonstrated to the new warchief that it could channel the best parts of an orc's instinctive drive without overwhelming him.
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Old 06-29-2017, 09:21 AM
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"Bloodlust" is not actually spell. Bloodlust is orcish nature.
Both warlocks and shamans are able to imbue an orcs with this state. The difference is warlocks do that with fel magic and shamans do it with nature magic.
Not without reason alliance version of this spell is called "heroism" in WoW.
The fact that other races can be bloodlusted is just gameplay balance mechanic.
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Old 06-29-2017, 09:29 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by OnyxWatcher View Post
"Bloodlust" is not actually spell. Bloodlust is orcish nature.
Both warlocks and shamans are able to imbue an orcs with this state. The difference is warlocks do that with fel magic and shamans do it with nature magic.
Not without reason alliance version of this spell is called "heroism" in WoW.
The fact that other races can be bloodlusted is just gameplay balance mechanic.
That is not nearly as fun as believing that Alliance Pandaren Shaman and Horde Pandaren Shaman are casting slightly different spells, based on competing aspects of Tushui vs. Huojin ideologies.
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Old 06-29-2017, 09:42 AM
OnyxWatcher OnyxWatcher is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
That is not nearly as fun as believing that Alliance Pandaren Shaman and Horde Pandaren Shaman are casting slightly different spells, based on competing aspects of Tushui vs. Huojin ideologies.
Actually they are, lorewisely :-)
Huojin imbue an orcs with bloodlust, while Tushui, Wildhammers and Draenei imbue alliance races with heroism, sacrifice, allah akbar or other severe berserk mushrooms.
Still this is just game mechanic and I think "bloodlust" is state of psychology and physiology of Orcs.
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Old 06-29-2017, 10:04 AM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Actually they are, lorewisely :-)
Huojin imbue an orcs with bloodlust, while Tushui, Wildhammers and Draenei imbue alliance races with heroism, sacrifice, allah akbar or other severe berserk mushrooms.
Still this is just game mechanic and I think "bloodlust" is state of psychology and physiology of Orcs.
It's not as if Trolls and Tauren and such don't have any bloodlust at all, just because orcs have more innately
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Old 06-29-2017, 10:18 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
It's not as if Trolls and Tauren and such don't have any bloodlust at all, just because orcs have more innately
Of course trolls specifically have Berserking, which has got to be similar.
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Old 06-29-2017, 10:23 AM
OnyxWatcher OnyxWatcher is offline

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Originally Posted by Mutterscrawl View Post
It's not as if Trolls and Tauren and such don't have any bloodlust at all, just because orcs have more innately
I repeat: this is game mechanic.
Trolls have similar state to bloodlust, it's called "Berserking", but this is caused by alchemy I guess.
Pissed off Tauren is enough to worry about. No magic/alchemy needed.

Anyway I disagree with BaronGrackle that Bloodlust lore is "schizophrenic".
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Old 06-29-2017, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by OnyxWatcher View Post
I repeat: this is game mechanic.
Trolls have similar state to bloodlust, it's called "Berserking", but this is caused by alchemy I guess.
Pissed off Tauren is enough to worry about. No magic/alchemy needed.

Anyway I disagree with BaronGrackle that Bloodlust lore is "schizophrenic".
I disagree I don't think it's a game mechanic that it affects non-orcs too

We've seen lots of magic induce different mental states, why do you think Heroism can affect folks in the same way but the Bloodlust spell can't lorewise affect trolls and tauren and such? Seems like a rather arbitrary distinction.
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Old 06-29-2017, 11:07 AM
OnyxWatcher OnyxWatcher is offline

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I disagree I don't think it's a game mechanic that it affects non-orcs too

We've seen lots of magic induce different mental states, why do you think Heroism can affect folks in the same way but the Bloodlust spell can't lorewise affect trolls and tauren and such? Seems like a rather arbitrary distinction.
Well, maybe Blizzard should racially explain every states of "bloodlust" :-D

Humans - human spirit and shit
Dwarves - viking mushrooms
Night Elf - "Call of Ursoc and Ursol"
Gnomes - manlet frustration
Draenei - "heroism"
Worgen - wolf rage
Pandaren - some Tushui motivation

Orcs - the title "Bloodlust"
Trolls - alchemy drugs
Tauren - ecology wrath
Undead - state of zombie
Blood Elf - "I broke my nail!"
Goblin - hobgoblin form (where's muh munee)
Pandaren - Huojin ideology stuff


But for real, even if every race could be bloodlusted, it doesn't mean Bloodlust can't have different sources, like fel, nature, arcane, and even holy.
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