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  #26  
Old 06-29-2017, 04:33 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Cheers to the times when the high elves invented Heal, and when Inner Fire existed thanks to the work of Dalaran's mages.
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  #27  
Old 06-30-2017, 01:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Cheers to the times when the high elves invented Heal, and when Inner Fire existed thanks to the work of Dalaran's mages.
Am not sure if it's subtle irony or something like this, but "heal" and "inner fire" are holy magic rather. It's not invention of Dalaran mages but Quel'Thalas priests (mage-priest in WC3 alpha/beta).

Modern canon rather claims them [Priests] to be just the Light followers, not arcane heretic cheaters.

The very word "Arcane" has evolved much during Warcraft games development.
In early WC3 phases "arcane" was just magic, the thing every spellcaster do, from archmages, by shamans, to Eredar warlocks ending.

Now arcane is like form of "element", type of energy.
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  #28  
Old 06-30-2017, 01:17 AM
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Marthen's being a troll about it, but his point isn't out of place. Priests used Inner Fire, which is basically a pseudo-Blood Lust in concept (bolstering one's inner strengths, which in that case was armor and spell power). Because Inner Fire was ubiquitous across all priests, it basically amounted to saying "every species has an Inner Fire." Hell, Inner Fire was an optional spell on WC3 units, up to and including things like ogres. So, why can't every species have an inner Blood Lust?

Considering Bloodlust was first conceived when talking about human beings falling prey to their own primal instincts in battle, it makes little sense to claim that Heroism is anything except Humans trying to slap a socially acceptable label on top of a fight or flight drive (namely...FIGHT!). Blood lust is magically inducing the same drive Orcs, Tauren, Gnomes, Pandaren, and every other species with an adrenal gland has. So, it stands to reason that the magic used doesn't matter, only the physical limit that the species can reach before the magic kills them. In the case of Orcs, it just happens to be a much higher limit.
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  #29  
Old 06-30-2017, 01:26 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by OnyxWatcher View Post
Am not sure if it's subtle irony or something like this, but "heal" and "inner fire" are holy magic rather. It's not invention of Dalaran mages but Quel'Thalas priests (mage-priest in WC3 alpha/beta).

Modern canon rather claims them [Priests] to be just the Light followers, not arcane heretic cheaters.

The very word "Arcane" has evolved much during Warcraft games development.
In early WC3 phases "arcane" was just magic, the thing every spellcaster do, from archmages, by shamans, to Eredar warlocks ending.

Now arcane is like form of "element", type of energy.
You ought to check what this thread is about. The times before World of Warcraft and their appreciation.

From the Warcraft III manual;

Quote:
INNER FIRE
The mages of Dalaran discovered a way to bring out the potential of the
warrior’s fighting spirit and essentially wreathe them in their own spiritual
energies. This has had the overall effect of making the Alliance warriors
more resistant to damage and better able to deal damage.
Quote:
HEAL
The positive energies of the Light can be channeled to create a healing ener-
gy wave. This technique, developed first by the high elves, and later taught
to humans, has remained relatively unchanged since its original discovery.
There was no irony in my post, I genuinely wanted to appreciate the times when this held true.


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Marthen's being a troll about it, but his point isn't out of place.
I have a friendly advice for you. If you can't, for any reason given, correctly assess the situation, you should refrain from making judgments.
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  #30  
Old 06-30-2017, 01:55 AM
Cantus Cantus is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
You ought to check what this thread is about. The times before World of Warcraft and their appreciation.

From the Warcraft III manual;





There was no irony in my post, I genuinely wanted to appreciate the times when this held true.




I have a friendly advice for you. If you can't, for any reason given, correctly assess the situation, you should refrain from making judgments.
Didn't want to use the term smart-ass, so I used the term "troll". Also, yeah, 3am and I'm discussing Set Theory and Godel's incompleteness theorem with Ruinshin...just a touch distracted.

Still, by the last act of WC3, you're talking about Night Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, Orcs, Tauren, everyone getting Bloodlust buffs...so how does that not make it a universal effect?
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  #31  
Old 06-30-2017, 02:00 AM
OnyxWatcher OnyxWatcher is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
You ought to check what this thread is about. The times before World of Warcraft and their appreciation.

From the Warcraft III manual;





There was no irony in my post, I genuinely wanted to appreciate the times when this held true.




I have a friendly advice for you. If you can't, for any reason given, correctly assess the situation, you should refrain from making judgments.
Oh, I'm sorry then.

Shame is I have old manual and I didn't check it all.
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  #32  
Old 06-30-2017, 02:20 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantus View Post
Didn't want to use the term smart-ass, so I used the term "troll". Also, yeah, 3am and I'm discussing Set Theory and Godel's incompleteness theorem with Ruinshin...just a touch distracted.

Still, by the last act of WC3, you're talking about Night Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, Orcs, Tauren, everyone getting Bloodlust buffs...so how does that not make it a universal effect?
Cantus, it was not me who proposed that Bloodlust is not a universal effect, that was OnyxWatcher. I merely pointed out in the original post that back in the pre-World of Warcraft times, it was not a problem that Bloodlust could have been induced by different types of casters, as back then, all these types of magic were (at least as far as we can infer from the text) mere subsets who shared one common root; being arcane.


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Originally Posted by OnyxWatcher View Post
Oh, I'm sorry then.

Shame is I have old manual and I didn't check it all.
It's alright.

You'll have to get used to it, but me, BaronGrackle, and some others are of those guys who enjoy discussing "retro-lore", ie lore as it was at a certain point of history.
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  #33  
Old 06-30-2017, 02:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Cantus, it was not me who proposed that Bloodlust is not a universal effect, that was OnyxWatcher. I merely pointed out in the original post that back in the pre-World of Warcraft times, it was not a problem that Bloodlust could have been induced by different types of casters, as back then, all these types of magic were (at least as far as we can infer from the text) mere subsets who shared one common root; being arcane.

It's alright.

You'll have to get used to it, but me, BaronGrackle, and some others are of those guys who enjoy discussing "retro-lore", ie lore as it was at a certain point of history.
Not arguing with you, just clarifying that my argument stood regardless of when it came from (pre or post WoW).
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  #34  
Old 06-30-2017, 02:48 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Cantus View Post
Not arguing with you, just clarifying that my argument stood regardless of when it came from (pre or post WoW).
Alright, then. That's certainly true in any case.
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  #35  
Old 06-30-2017, 05:58 AM
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So I checked out the pre-WoW Core Rules 1st Edition, which while not in continuity now did have Metzen's direct role in it.

The Magic section splits Magic into Arcane and Divine. The Arcane area notes that it is addictive and corrupting with demons being called arcane casters.
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  #36  
Old 06-30-2017, 06:14 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Almed View Post
So I checked out the pre-WoW Core Rules 1st Edition, which while not in continuity now did have Metzen's direct role in it.

The Magic section splits Magic into Arcane and Divine. The Arcane area notes that it is addictive and corrupting with demons being called arcane casters.
Yes, but as Dutchie pointed out earlier in the thread, that is already at odds with Warcraft III. Warcraft III did not have Shamanism separate from say the magics of the Kirin Tor on a fundamental level, they were both arcane arts, and they both operated with the basic elements.

Edit: Here, have a loot at a theoretical visualization;



The Light's a bit of an enigma, as while the Paladin entry makes it seem it was evoked solely through faith and a prayer, the Priest entry has some allusion to treating it as magic. Unless, despite the name change from Mage-Priest to Priest during the beta, the Priest unit was about using both magic spells (Inner Fire and Dispel Magic) and the Light (heal). In that case, the Hoy Light would belong solely to Divine Mysteries.

Last edited by Marthen; 06-30-2017 at 06:38 AM..
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  #37  
Old 06-30-2017, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
me, BaronGrackle, and some others are of those guys who enjoy discussing "retro-lore", ie lore as it was at a certain point of history.
It just so happens so I do
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  #38  
Old 06-30-2017, 04:42 PM
Almed Almed is offline

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Well okay then, what was "Warlock Magic" within context of WC3?
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  #39  
Old 06-30-2017, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Almed View Post
Well okay then, what was "Warlock Magic" within context of WC3?
Eredar magic, given by them to orcs. Well and it was arcane as well, just used in naughty ways.

Maybe Marthen knows more.
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  #40  
Old 07-01-2017, 06:58 AM
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Very interesting stuff here. It never occurred to me to interpret that quote about eredar that way, I always thought it meant their home plane for some reason. Very intriguing, even if it is just 'rumored' and non canon, and reminds me how little attention I actually paid back when I was a warcraft 3 junkie. Though to be honest I feel like the quote about shamanism being arcane magic was rather strange. It wasn't outright stated but I've always felt that it was a given that it wasn't arcane in origin at all, what with the LotC novel having it completely separate from demonic magic(which War3 made to be closely tied to arcane) and regarded as a safe form of magic. Also I think the furbolgs also practiced shamanism back in warcraft 3 and the night elves didn't seem to have any issues with them before the corruption of the forests, despite them being right in their forests, and not across the sea like the humans and elves. You could argue that shamanism was just a 'safer' form of arcane, especially since it didn't deal with teleportation/portal shenanigans that probably affect the fabric of reality more than the other branches(and thus more likely to attract demons), but the tone overall of the setting/story made it seem otherwise to me.
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  #41  
Old 07-01-2017, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Royalpimp View Post
Also I think the furbolgs also practiced shamanism back in warcraft 3 and the night elves didn't seem to have any issues with them before the corruption of the forests, despite them being right in their forests, and not across the sea like the humans and elves. You could argue that shamanism was just a 'safer' form of arcane, especially since it didn't deal with teleportation/portal shenanigans that probably affect the fabric of reality more than the other branches(and thus more likely to attract demons), but the tone overall of the setting/story made it seem otherwise to me.
I think it's all about a source. Shamanism is much more primal and modest form of magic arts, so Elves didn't have problem about Furbolgs.
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  #42  
Old 07-01-2017, 11:01 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by OnyxWatcher View Post
I repeat: this is game mechanic.
Trolls have similar state to bloodlust, it's called "Berserking", but this is caused by alchemy I guess.
Pissed off Tauren is enough to worry about. No magic/alchemy needed.

Anyway I disagree with BaronGrackle that Bloodlust lore is "schizophrenic".
So Troll Berserking and Troll Regeneration had an interesting shift between WC2 and WC3. In WC2, it was basically the Goblins giving them steroids, I mean alchemy and potions. In WC3 and WoW, the goblin symbiotism disappears, and it becomes more of a natural part of a Troll's body chemistry--but it was natural body chemistry that the Witch Doctors knew how to manipulate! In fact, it seems they can mess with anyone's body chemistry.

Here's WC2 goblin-troll interaction for Berserking and Regeneration (researched at the Lumber Mill).

Note also the troll use of alchemy in wood harvesting, which is specifically said to be a troll development instead of a goblin one:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll Berserker
Berserkers are a bloodthirsty sect of Trolls dedicated to the total annihilation of their hated enemies, the Elves. Suffering numerous experiments with strange chemicals and potions by the Goblin Alchemists, the Berserkers have had many strange abilities bestowed upon them that make them all but unstoppable in the heat of battle. Berserkers are hardier and stronger than most Trolls, effectively transforming them into a veritable whirling cyclone of death and destruction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll Lumber Mill
Carved from the husk of an ancient Ironwood tree, the Troll Lumber Mill is a vital part of the Horde's lumber processing operation. The Trolls, having lived in the forests of the far north for centuries, have devised a unique method of harvesting. By treating a group of trees with a volatile alchemical solvent, the Trolls can deaden and weaken large sections of wood. Though it is extremely hazardous to Peon and earth alike, this site makes the process of cutting lumber more efficient. Trolls have become quite adept at fashioning a special sort of throwing axe. The crafting and use of this weapon is always being honed to perfection. Troll Berserkers frequent the Ironwood trees to digest potions given to them by the Goblin Alchemists stationed there. These potions enable them to throw their axes greater distances or sharpen their sight. It is also said that the speed at which healing occurs is increased if the correct potion is ingested. This process of regeneration is one of the most distinct and unbelievable powers of the Troll Berserkers.
Now in WC3 RoC, you'll see Troll Regeneration as seemingly more natural. But Troll Witch Doctors can fiddle with it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll Headhunter
Though the horde allied itself with the evil forest trolls during the Second War, the alliance was short lived due to the horde's eventual defeat. But Thrall, on one of his many journeys, befriended a tribe of shadowy trolls from the steamy jungles of Stranglethorn.

These cunning warriors are trained from birth to hunt, track and trap the most dangerous beasts in the wilds and
possess the uncanny ability to regenerate lost health. In times of war, however, headhunters relish turning their mighty spears on the enemies of the horde without hesitation. Capable of hurling their deadly spears at distant enemies, troll headhunters provide invaluable cover fire for the other warriors of the horde.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll Regeneration
Like all trolls, headhunters can regenerate lost health over time. This racial ability makes the trolls fearsome opponents and often allows them to spring back into combat even though they've suffered grievous wounds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll Witch Doctor
Although they are savage and cunning in the extreme, the troll witch doctors have aligned themselves with the horde out of pure necessity. These dastardly magic users are adept at manipulating the chemical processes within their fellow warriors in order to augment their combat abilities.
This is followed by descriptions of Healing Ward, Sentry Ward, and Stasis Trap. It's probable that these wards function by bio-magically interacting with the "chemical processes" of anything that contacts it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spirit Lodge
The spirit lodge is a place of quiet contemplation where shamans and troll witch doctors meditate and refine their mastery of arcane magic. Having abandoned their practice of necromancy, magic users within the horde have found different ways to combat their enemies. Witch doctors manipulate chemicals within the body and in the environment, while shamans command the forces of nature.
One might even conclude that the Healing Ward is possible because the witch doctors learned how natural troll regeneration works, and they can use the ward to replicate the chemical processes in non-trolls and accelerate it in trolls.

The Healing Ward is a pole in the ground that magically triggers your body to say: "Hey, I'm a troll! I better start regenerating!"

The Sentry Ward doesn't trigger people/animals but instead affects chemicals "in the environment", as the Spirit Lodge indicates. Note how this could possibly be related to using chemical alchemy in harvesting Ironwood, described in the WC2 Troll Lumber Mill.

* * *

The Frozen Throne manual, sadly, is far less lore-packed. The Troll Berserker upgrade has little information.

Though we might take note of the Troll Batrider, which wields "Unstable Concoction" and "Liquid Fire". Did you assume goblins invented those? Well, maybe they did.

But maybe the Trolls did.


EDIT: This also makes me rethink the Shadow Hunter's "Hex" spell. And troll druids. Perhaps when a troll druid transforms into a stag, he's magically altering the chemical processes in his own body until his body is a stag's.

Goblin alchemy is for suckers. Troll bio-magi-alchemy is where it's at!

EDIT EDIT: And it begs another question. Could Troll Berserking have been developed by Witch Doctors studying an orc's natural bloodlust, and figuring out how to trigger a similar response in a troll's body? And did it react so seamlessly that trolls now can be born with this previously latent berserk ability unlocked?

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 07-01-2017 at 11:39 AM..
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  #43  
Old 07-01-2017, 12:44 PM
OnyxWatcher OnyxWatcher is offline

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Wow, very good analysis, I'm impressed.
Trolls' deforesting technology was interesting.
It's shame I forgot all those Warcraft 2 manual descriptions, those actually tell much about old school Warcraft lore.
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  #44  
Old 07-01-2017, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Goblin alchemy is for suckers. Troll bio-magi-alchemy is where it's at!
That one actually fits with modern lore quite well, with the berserkers having a far more distinct appearance, plus the historic relation between the trolls and the mogu (who specialize in flesh-shaping)
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  #45  
Old 07-01-2017, 06:09 PM
Almed Almed is offline

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Well, let's see what Warlock or Warlocklike units in WC3 could do:

Blood Mage-Conjure a fire pillar, turn enemies ethreal, drain mana, summon a phoenix

Demon Hunter-Make an enemy's mana burn, engulf himself in flames, dodge, turn into demonic form.

Orc Warlock-Cast fire bolts, unleash frenzies on allied units and cripple enemy targets.

Eredar-Put enemy to sleep, disable enemy buffs, unleash parasites, shoot firebolt, kill with finger, mana shield, make himself do more damage and stun his enemy.
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  #46  
Old 07-01-2017, 07:49 PM
OnyxWatcher OnyxWatcher is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Almed View Post
Well, let's see what Warlock or Warlocklike units in WC3 could do:

Blood Mage-Conjure a fire pillar, turn enemies ethreal, drain mana, summon a phoenix

Demon Hunter-Make an enemy's mana burn, engulf himself in flames, dodge, turn into demonic form.

Orc Warlock-Cast fire bolts, unleash frenzies on allied units and cripple enemy targets.

Eredar-Put enemy to sleep, disable enemy buffs, unleash parasites, shoot firebolt, kill with finger, mana shield, make himself do more damage and stun his enemy.
I think Blood Mage isn't warlock yet. It's High Elf mage who freshly titled himself as "Blood Elf" as well as the rest of his brethen.

Demon Hunter indeed is warlocklike character. Dodge is purely elven thing though, no warlock magic influence.

Orc Warlock (Orc Shaman in alpha/beta) is scrapped unit and he is given necromancer abilities (excluding Fireball), so it's hard to say.

Eredar Warlocks and Diabolists have quite a warlock abilities.

There is also Stormweaver Warlock, but I can't remember what abilities does he have. Im on my phone and Im gonna to sleep now.
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  #47  
Old 07-01-2017, 10:03 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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I think Blood Mage isn't warlock yet. It's High Elf mage who freshly titled himself as "Blood Elf" as well as the rest of his brethen.
They went pretty far. http://classic.battle.net/war3/human...loodmage.shtml

Quote:
Many of the stoic high elves, reeling from the loss of their ancient homeland, Quel'Thalas, have given in to their hatred and despair and embraced the dark side of their magical natures. Calling themselves 'Blood Elves' - these cold hearted refugees seek to expand their remaining magical powers at any cost - even if it means courting the infernal powers of the Burning Legion! Though still loyal to the Alliance, the Blood Elves' passions will lead them not only to the highest pinnacles of power, but to the darkest depths of madness.
And...

Quote:
There is also Stormweaver Warlock, but I can't remember what abilities does he have. Im on my phone and Im gonna to sleep now.
http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutr...tml#apprentice

So Stormreavers actually have a wide variety of shamanism and necromancy.
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  #48  
Old 07-01-2017, 10:34 PM
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Actually, WC2 to WC3 didn't seem to make much of a difference between Warlocks and Necromancers. Gul'dan's diary even talked about him and other Shadow Council teammates doing necromancy. With the Liches in WC3 being made from Ner'zhul's Warlocks and Shamans.
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Old 07-02-2017, 07:04 AM
OnyxWatcher OnyxWatcher is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Many of the stoic high elves, reeling from the loss of their ancient homeland, Quel'Thalas, have given in to their hatred and despair and embraced the dark side of their magical natures. Calling themselves 'Blood Elves' - these cold hearted refugees seek to expand their remaining magical powers at any cost - even if it means courting the infernal powers of the Burning Legion! Though still loyal to the Alliance, the Blood Elves' passions will lead them not only to the highest pinnacles of power, but to the darkest depths of madness.
My interpretation of this description is Blood Mages are in kind of process to become a warlocks, but since beginning of WC3 FT they are still just magic hungry mages.
We can see progressing corruption of Blood Elves during Alliance campaign.

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Originally Posted by Almed View Post
Actually, WC2 to WC3 didn't seem to make much of a difference between Warlocks and Necromancers. Gul'dan's diary even talked about him and other Shadow Council teammates doing necromancy. With the Liches in WC3 being made from Ner'zhul's Warlocks and Shamans.
I'm not sure. I think the difference between warlocks and necromancers was quite visible since very origin of Warcraft games - Warlocks and Necrolytes in WC1. Then we have WC2, most of Warlocks slaughtered by Doomhammer, and Necrolytes turned into Death Knights. Ogre mages are primitive version of Mages as their name states, they are not Warlocks imho.
At last we have WC3 where Demonology and Necromancy is separated at the factional level - Burning Legion and the Scourge, despite Burning Legion isn't playable.
Of course, Burning Legion do possess an access to Necromancy, it's not their iconic aspect though.

EDIT. Ok, I change my mind about Ogre magi.
Quote:
The Ogre-Magi were originally a small band of extremely loyal Ogre enforcers, transformed by Gul'dan into scheming and malicious sorcerers. By warping and twisting the Elf-magiks of the Runestone at Caer Darrow, Gul'dan was able to infuse the magical abilities of long dead Warlocks into the bodies of these unsuspecting hosts. Once hulking simpletons, the transformed Ogre-Magi can direct their death magiks as easily as their lesser cousins would deliver a crushing blow to any foolish enough to stand in their path. The Ogre-Magi have also become extremely cunning and insidious - serving the Horde only as they see fit.
They are technically Warlocks. Ogre-mage is just a name.

Last edited by OnyxWatcher; 07-02-2017 at 07:33 AM..
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  #50  
Old 07-02-2017, 11:52 AM
Royalpimp Royalpimp is offline

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I think the blood mages were meant to be more than power hungry mages, not really warlocks either but still not very far.
Their description mentioned that they were willing to court the 'infernal' powers of the Legion, and while this can be just a nod to the direction of the blood elf story, hero descriptions usually make some reference to how said hero fights. Then there's how they actually use fiery, even 'infernal' spells as opposed to the frost magic of the Kirin Tor, of which Kael had been a part of even back then. They even had those green, fiery orbs floating around, which they used to attack and cast some of their spells.

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Originally Posted by OnyxWatcher View Post
I think it's all about a source. Shamanism is much more primal and modest form of magic arts, so Elves didn't have problem about Furbolgs.
I suppose so. It's still silly to me.
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