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  #51  
Old 07-02-2017, 01:01 PM
OnyxWatcher OnyxWatcher is offline

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Originally Posted by Royalpimp View Post
I think the blood mages were meant to be more than power hungry mages, not really warlocks either but still not very far.
Their description mentioned that they were willing to court the 'infernal' powers of the Legion, and while this can be just a nod to the direction of the blood elf story, hero descriptions usually make some reference to how said hero fights. Then there's how they actually use fiery, even 'infernal' spells as opposed to the frost magic of the Kirin Tor, of which Kael had been a part of even back then. They even had those green, fiery orbs floating around, which they used to attack and cast some of their spells.
Anyway Blood Mages' ultimate spell was creating a Phoenix - noble symbol of rebirth. So Blood Mages were optimistic heroes rather.

What about Fire Magic, it's not necessary evil despite Kirin Tor prefered Water Magic. Archmages themselves cast fire bolts as their autoattacks.
And Kael's green orbs aren''t fel if I remember well.
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  #52  
Old 07-02-2017, 04:04 PM
Royalpimp Royalpimp is offline

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Originally Posted by OnyxWatcher View Post
Anyway Blood Mages' ultimate spell was creating a Phoenix - noble symbol of rebirth. So Blood Mages were optimistic heroes rather.

What about Fire Magic, it's not necessary evil despite Kirin Tor prefered Water Magic. Archmages themselves cast fire bolts as their autoattacks.
And Kael's green orbs aren''t fel if I remember well.
Oh, I didn't mean to say they were evil or sombre or anything like that. And I agree fire magic was not necessarily 'evil' but given how demonic/warlock units tended to cast fiery spells more, it seemed like it could be a sort of borderline school of magic, at least to me. As for Kael's orbs, they were a complete mystery, but anything with green fire back then was pretty much demonic/corrupted...kind of like now, I think.
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  #53  
Old 07-02-2017, 04:22 PM
Almed Almed is offline

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The Tides of Darkness manual doesn't make a distinction between Necromancers and Warlocks. The bits that talk about Doomhammer killing the Shadow Council and them coming back as Death Knights puts them all as Shadow Council. And it says Gul'dan was the first to study Necromancry among Orcs.

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  #54  
Old 07-02-2017, 04:30 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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Given how the RPG materials handled the blood elves, and how those seem to be based in part on older drafts for RTS materials, it's possible that the manual entry is based on such. In the actual campaign, it doesn't make much sense for the blood elves to be using any magic that's actually warlock-like. Because it'd make Vashj's offer to Kael not make much sense if the blood elves had any idea how to do warlock or warlock-like magics. They wouldn't need the education just to get basic magical sustenance then. Contrast this with the RPG version, where the blood elves aligned themselves with Illidan much earlier, and because of their desire for 'more' magical power, with the suggestion that they'd already gone over to the dark side of the mana. In that context, the Manual entry makes a lot more sense.

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Originally Posted by Almed View Post
The Tides of Darkness manual doesn't make a distinction between Necromancers and Warlocks. The bits that talk about Doomhammer killing the Shadow Council and them coming back as Death Knights puts them all as Shadow Council. And it says Gul'dan was the first to study Necromancry among Orcs.
Oh jeeps, you have spoken Grackle-summoning words.

That actually was one of the earlier major retcons in warcraft lore. In the warcraft I manual, the necrolytes and warlocks were very explicitly distinct, belonging to different clans with different goals, and, while both were tied to the 'lower realms', they used very distinct energies.
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  #55  
Old 07-02-2017, 06:53 PM
OnyxWatcher OnyxWatcher is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Almed View Post
The Tides of Darkness manual doesn't make a distinction between Necromancers and Warlocks. The bits that talk about Doomhammer killing the Shadow Council and them coming back as Death Knights puts them all as Shadow Council. And it says Gul'dan was the first to study Necromancry among Orcs.
Actually it clearly says Death Knights are Azeroth (Stormwind) Knights' corpses with slaughtered (by Doomhammer) Warlocks spirits within and enchanted with Necrolytes' power (who, in turn, were ritually killed by Gul'Dan himself).
I didn't read the whole manual though so I don't know how this "enchancement" looked like. Wowpedia says Necrolytes' hearts have been carbonized and attached to DKs' scepters.
Anyway there is some distinction after all.

Ogre-Magi (note: "Ogre-Mage" is actually a race, not a class) are said to be enchanted by Gul'Dan with power of "long dead" warlocks thank to elven runestone in Caer Darrow.
So it's safe to say Ogre-Magi are successors of First War Warlocks while Death Knights are successors of First War Necrolytes.

And about Gul'Dan as the first one to study Necromancry among Orcs... well, he was very ambitious guy.

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Gul’dan has used his magiks to bring into being a host of servants for the Horde. Necrolytes, OgreMagi, and the dread Death Knights are all results of his endless experiments with the forces of magic.

Last edited by OnyxWatcher; 07-02-2017 at 07:13 PM..
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  #56  
Old 07-03-2017, 06:20 AM
Royalpimp Royalpimp is offline

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Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
Given how the RPG materials handled the blood elves, and how those seem to be based in part on older drafts for RTS materials, it's possible that the manual entry is based on such. In the actual campaign, it doesn't make much sense for the blood elves to be using any magic that's actually warlock-like. Because it'd make Vashj's offer to Kael not make much sense if the blood elves had any idea how to do warlock or warlock-like magics. They wouldn't need the education just to get basic magical sustenance then. Contrast this with the RPG version, where the blood elves aligned themselves with Illidan much earlier, and because of their desire for 'more' magical power, with the suggestion that they'd already gone over to the dark side of the mana. In that context, the Manual entry makes a lot more sense.
[/SPOILER]
I used to think the same, but I kind of figured the 'demonic'-like magic that the blood magi used was probably a more ambiguous/borderline form of magic, close enough to the 'regular' arcane that they didn't have to worry too much about it, especially since they didn't really involve demons directly to get power, which is what Vashj was suggesting. Makes sense considering arcane and demonic magic didn't seem too far apart in the first place. And they actually could get power from other creatures, if the blood mage Mana Drain was any indication.
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And that is the Drama to being part of the Horde. There are people out there who want you dead. You honestly can’t blame them. Do you lie down and die for them? No. You enjoy the challenge. You keep your head up and move forward.

Last edited by Royalpimp; 07-03-2017 at 06:22 AM..
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  #57  
Old 07-03-2017, 02:23 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijffdrie View Post
In the actual campaign, it doesn't make much sense for the blood elves to be using any magic that's actually warlock-like. Because it'd make Vashj's offer to Kael not make much sense if the blood elves had any idea how to do warlock or warlock-like magics.
You have to keep in mind those descriptions are for the multiplayer hero units, first and foremost. They they don't always match the heroes. The Blood Mage description describes elves who court the Burning Legion while remaining loyal to the Alliance - I don't think Kael'thas matched those two parameters at the same time.

Compare it to the Demon Hunter description and Illidan, who hadn't sold his soul for demonic powers until later in his campaign and who didn't bind his eyes for ritualistic reasons.

Likewisr, Kel'Thuzad was not formerly one of Ner'zhul's death knights on Draenor, Malfurion is not half-stag, and Grom Hellscream was never in the Burning Blade Clan.
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  #58  
Old 07-03-2017, 09:50 PM
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There's nothing stopping some other Blood Elves from researching demonic magic while they were working in the Allliance (or what was left of it north of the Thandol Span). They could have not gone full demon crack until Outland.
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  #59  
Old 07-19-2017, 01:59 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Hypothetical question about the early RotH era Shadowmoon Clan.

If one were to divide the shaman of that clan into three distinct subfactions/specializations, what would they be? Shamans in WoW are already divided into Elemental, Enhancement, and Restoration specializations. But there might be stronger thematics to dividing them into Shadow Shaman (Dark Star supporters) and two other groups - whatever those other two groups would be. Maybe the groups could even be Shaman (standard), Necromancers (Dark Shaman or Shadow Shaman), and early Warlocks (Chaos Shaman).

Thoughts?

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 07-19-2017 at 02:07 PM..
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  #60  
Old 07-19-2017, 08:01 PM
GenyaArikado GenyaArikado is offline

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Thoughts?


love u, just not your ideas or tastes

Last edited by GenyaArikado; 07-19-2017 at 08:03 PM..
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  #61  
Old 07-19-2017, 10:48 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Fine, fine; fair enough.

Freaking one-clanned Shadowmoon Valley can just ruin my scheme for players controlling multiple clans to capture the feel of decentralized leadership. Fine.
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  #62  
Old 07-19-2017, 10:51 PM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Marthen had a cool division of pre-Horde shamans in his project thread!
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  #63  
Old 07-19-2017, 11:34 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Hypothetical question about the early RotH era Shadowmoon Clan.

If one were to divide the shaman of that clan into three distinct subfactions/specializations, what would they be? Shamans in WoW are already divided into Elemental, Enhancement, and Restoration specializations. But there might be stronger thematics to dividing them into Shadow Shaman (Dark Star supporters) and two other groups - whatever those other two groups would be. Maybe the groups could even be Shaman (standard), Necromancers (Dark Shaman or Shadow Shaman), and early Warlocks (Chaos Shaman).

Thoughts?

Hmn...

I think you nailed it on the head, Shadow, Death, and Chaos.
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  #64  
Old 07-20-2017, 12:28 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Thanks! Decided to go a different direction... Dragonmaw and Bladewind can transplant a little to fit the neighborhood.
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  #65  
Old 07-20-2017, 01:26 AM
Ethenil Ethenil is offline

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Here's what Marthen thought of:

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First of all, it is rather important to understand what the word shaman meant in the old orcish society. It did not really denote a specific kind of spellcaster, no, but more a spiritual figure that communicated with spirits of all kind. As this classification was rather broad, the orcs had further designations to categorize the different kinds of Shaman, that being necrolytes, elementalists and warlows.


The Elementalists were our classic Shaman. Though they were generally never really called such, instead being simply called Shaman, their strong connection to the elemental spirits made this designation a welcome one when a differentiation from Necrolyte or Warlow was required. The northern clans were far more elementalist than the southern clans, and some, such as the Frostwolves, had only this kind of Shaman amongst their ranks.



The Necrolytes were ritualists and deep spiritualists. Unlike the Elementalists, they did not have such a profound connection to the elemental spirits, but focused on communing with the spirits of the dead. They mostly employed ritualistic Blood magic, though some still worked with the elemental spirits of Air and Earth to a certain degree, as those were closely linked to the spirits and energies they normally dealt with. A few also dabbed in the Void magics, albeit only in a shallow way. Necrolytes were far more numerous amongst the southern clans, and some, such as the Shadowmoons, were heavily necrolytic.


The Warlows (an archaism for warlock) were those shamans who delved into and sometimes mastered the forbidden arts, such as any deeper use of the Void magics, more extreme parts of Blood magic and dark shamanism. A warlow had to pose either as an elementalist or a necrolyte, for any sign of dabbling in or manipulating such dark powers resulted in an immediate death sentence. The latter was a more common case, hence why the number of warlows in the south exceeded the number in the north by far, and why clans such as the Frostwolves had historically very few warlows amongst their ranks.



Even though it was something very rare to see, some shamans walked both the path of necrolyte and the path of elementalist at once, despite the fact that it was extremely demanding to even study both at once, let alone master them. In spite of this, or perhaps precisely because of this, the position of the Elder Shaman required one to master both paths.


Now, as for the Warlow cabal. Over the centuries of their existence, warlows slowly grew in number, often passing their knowledge onto their secret apprentices, creating long lineages that ensured the likes of them would not die out. As time passed by, they became more and more interconnected, and eventually, they formed something reminiscent of an informal secret society, a society that served to preserve and expand their common knowledge. This "cabal", as they called it, functioned in a more or less same fashion for long generations, until an ambitious orc called Ner'zhul stepped in. Being the very first warlow to become the Elder Shaman, Ner'zhul used his power and influence to reform the society, reforging it as a formal and highly organized cabal.
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  #66  
Old 07-20-2017, 03:49 AM
Almed Almed is offline

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So I make the case that the Chronicles system is too weak and video gamelike.
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  #67  
Old 07-20-2017, 05:52 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Here's what Marthen thought of:
Hah! Also worth noting is that while the elementalist shamans rely and work solely with Spirit, the necrolytes do also work with Decay, as part of their ritualistic blood magic. The prime distinction ultimately is that while the elementalists focus on the natural world, the necrolytes, through communion with the spirits of the dead, Spirit of Life, and Spirit of Decay, focus on the supernatural world.

And the warlows are of course those clandestine bastards who go to far in their pursuit of power and knowledge, overseeing the orcish clans from darkness.
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  #68  
Old 07-21-2017, 05:17 AM
Almed Almed is offline

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Marthen's work is interesting, but still, Chronicles.
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