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  #51  
Old 11-06-2017, 10:52 AM
Icefrost Icefrost is offline

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Originally Posted by Krakhed View Post
players who want to feel like they're fighting for their people, and not just trying to murder everyone.......

.....muster up enthusiasm instead of building it naturally. It exhausts their hype reserves until they finally couldn't care less.
You know what's more effective at that than anything else?

Not having anything at all left to fight for from day one.

Only thing anyone learned from cata was to not expect anything to be retaken or reclaimed when the dust settles. Ever. For any reason.
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  #52  
Old 11-06-2017, 10:52 AM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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B(attle) 4/for A(zeroth).
So then why is there an F instead of an A?

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Well, this expansion is literally Cataclysm 2.0. The world has been dealt a potentially lifethreatening blow, but this time there's no huge fucking dragon flying around. An unpopular Warchief has been appointed by the previous one and will most certainly spark off the conflict, but this one knows how to keep her mouth shut. And presumably the other leaders don't want a repeat of Garrosh. There's going to be Old God influence, but nothing screaming and babbling in your face. There's going to be a Faction War, but the Alliance will strike some major blows.

The real question is if they've learned enough to make it an enjoyable story this time around, and not just another incident for everyone to spit venom over. The Horde needs to feel justified in their actions, and players will do some of that work to find some explanation, but it needs to be properly shown ingame that they're not just reverting to Warcraft 2's Horde again.

That kind of shit alienates players who want to feel like they're fighting for their people, and not just trying to murder everyone in blue. It forces them to muster up enthusiasm instead of building it naturally. It exhausts their hype reserves until they finally couldn't care less.
This being Cata 2.0 is exactly why people can’t trust Blizzard. Even without cultists people are burned out on Old Gods. Not everyone is as enthusiastic about them as you are.

There’s no evidence that Blizzard has learned anything about why players hate factions. Night elf fans already lost their capital and lands. I’d say Forsaken fans will lose things but it seems ambiguous. We even have Horde fans mad because they don’t want Sylvanas in power, and you know she’s going to do questionable things.
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.

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  #53  
Old 11-06-2017, 11:09 AM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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You know what's more effective at that than anything else?

Not having anything at all left to fight for from day one.

Only thing anyone learned from cata was to not expect anything to be retaken or reclaimed when the dust settles. Ever. For any reason.
Well, yeah. I don't really expect the faction war plot to be any good. I can only try to guess which lessons they learned from Cataclysm. For instance, they might put a lot more spotlight on Sylvanas learning to be a better leader, and not have her partially responsible for the death of another faction leader. They might provide more clear justification for her aggression.

The only chance I see for Night Elves not to be screwed is if the Zandalar Loa recruitment allows the Night Elves to remain balanced while calling on their own Wild Gods. Goldrinn may as well be Alliance by now. It'd be great to have a quest chain for the Night Elves and Worgen to call upon them, maybe even setting up new shrines to their Demigods.

Then we can have God Vs God. Bwonsamdi Vs. Cenarius. Raptor God Vs. Wolf God. Let's have fun with this.
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This being Cata 2.0 is exactly why people can’t trust Blizzard. Even without cultists people are burned out on Old Gods. Not everyone is as enthusiastic about them as you are.
I'm not particularly enthusiastic about Old Gods. I care more about the handling and implementation. It's closer to say I like the idea of Old Gods and dark and strange gods in general. I like eerie and rising dread. Discoveries and realizations that make you feel sick to the stomach, which is what I feel Lovecraftian horror is more supposed to be about. N'zoth shouldn't be the direct cause of the factionwar, but I feel his presence will be tied to it.

He may just manage to be the wrongness kept at the back of our minds throughout the entire experience. Something will probably be a little off in the whole sequence of events.

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  #54  
Old 11-06-2017, 11:21 AM
Icefrost Icefrost is offline

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The only chance I see for Night Elves not to be screwed is if the Zandalar Loa recruitment allows the Night Elves to remain balanced while calling on their own Wild Gods.
You're either missing the point or dodging it to sugar coat things.
At the risk of coming across like I'm treating someone as an idiot (not intended), let me spell it out:
Kalimdor or nothing.
There is nothing to discuss in case of the latter. It's not about maintaining a source of moonjuice or any other practicality you might think of due to accepting a first step I never ever will.

That's why I mentioned retaking and reclaiming things. Because as it stands, that's the only thing that matters, and simultaneously the one thing Blizzard cannot be trusted on ever again.
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  #55  
Old 11-06-2017, 11:23 AM
Asterisk Asterisk is offline

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There's going to be Old God influence, but nothing screaming and babbling in your face.
I don't believe this for one second.
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  #56  
Old 11-06-2017, 11:42 AM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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You're either missing the point or dodging it to sugar coat things.
At the risk of coming across like I'm treating someone as an idiot (not intended), let me spell it out:
Kalimdor or nothing.
There is nothing to discuss in case of the latter. It's not about maintaining a source of moonjuice or any other practicality you might think of due to accepting a first step I never ever will.

That's why I mentioned retaking and reclaiming things. Because as it stands, that's the only thing that matters, and simultaneously the one thing Blizzard cannot be trusted on ever again.
I'm not missing the point. This is more or less my acceptance that this is going to happen whether I like it or not, and trying to see what can actually be salvaged from the scenario.

Warlord's of Draenor happened. As dumb of an idea as it was, their lack of commitment to their original ideas actually made it worse. It became both bad and half-assed. The bitching about it being a time travel expansion just ended up cutting out the heavier Dragon involvement. It'd actually have been better with more time travel, and if Gorgrond went as full Orc as it was originally planned to be. It'd still be a dumb idea, but it'd be more substantial and whole.

At this point, there's nothing to do for it. Teldrassil is going to burn. The Undercity will be destroyed. Sylvanas is somehow Warchief. The Faction War is happening. At this point, all that there's really left to discuss is where things might go from there.

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I don't believe this for one second.
Well, I more meant they won't shove it in our faces straightaway. The reveal isn't showing us Twilight's Hammer or Doomsday Cultists.
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  #57  
Old 11-06-2017, 11:54 AM
Icefrost Icefrost is offline

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Originally Posted by Krakhed View Post
Teldrassil is going to burn. The Undercity will be destroyed. Sylvanas is somehow Warchief. The Faction War is happening. At this point, all that there's really left to discuss is where things might go from there.
So let them have a new base of operations and civilization to fight for in Moonglade. Not after lordaeron, not after the war. Now.
If they can asspull Darnassus' destruction, they can also asspull how the elves don't lose everything worth doing anything for in one fell swoop.
At this point, only Teldrassil need burn, and we don't even know how badly that goes yet.

That's the angle I'm pushing while trying to understand how they can possibly expect any night elf player to have any investment in anything at all should I be even half wrong.
Not the garbage concessions from you and others that have been the definition of their story so far.
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  #58  
Old 11-06-2017, 12:07 PM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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So let them have a new base of operations and civilization to fight for in Moonglade. Not after lordaeron, not after the war. Now.
If they can asspull Darnassus' destruction, they can also asspull how the elves don't lose everything worth doing anything for in one fell swoop.
At this point, only Teldrassil need burn, and we don't even know how badly that goes yet.
Well, I almost forgot Moonglade existed. Considering how relatively unused it presently is, making it a new Night Elf capital would probably be a good idea. It's not like it really fits the thematics of any other race. So sure. Take it. Spruce it up as much as you need to, build some new temples, and kick the Horde out. I doubt anyone would mind, and these neutral zones don't serve much purpose in a world at war.

If the Nightborne are going to be picking sides, it makes at least as much sense for the Night Elves of the Cenarion Circle to fully commit to their people.
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  #59  
Old 11-06-2017, 12:08 PM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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So then why is there an F instead of an A?
We were all secretly BFFs. We just didn't know it yet.
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  #60  
Old 11-06-2017, 12:14 PM
Asterisk Asterisk is offline

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Well, I more meant they won't shove it in our faces straightaway. The reveal isn't showing us Twilight's Hammer or Doomsday Cultists.
The Stormsong Valley sea priests have tentacle designs covering their armor and a giant kraken carved into the mountain above their temple. Even their water elementals have face tentacles, based on the art in the boss design panel. I really want to be wrong but right now they look to be Twilight's Hammer in every way but name.
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  #61  
Old 11-06-2017, 12:15 PM
Icefrost Icefrost is offline

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Well, I almost forgot Moonglade existed. Considering how relatively unused it presently is, making it a new Night Elf capital would probably be a good idea. It's not like it really fits the thematics of any other race. So sure. Take it. Spruce it up as much as you need to, build some new temples, and kick the Horde out. I doubt anyone would mind, and these neutral zones don't serve much purpose in a world at war.

If the Nightborne are going to be picking sides, it makes at least as much sense for the Night Elves of the Cenarion Circle to fully commit to their people.
Which then gets us to the matter of keeping/retaking the rest of northern Kalimdor up to Ashenvale. With absolute zero trust in the latter, as I already said, only the former is an option.

And that would of course get in the way of this plan of handing just about all of the continent to the horde, not to mention the faction-bias-obsessed, flag-counting lunatics who are more into maths than writing, which means I'm probably dreaming, you're probably right, and I still have no f*king clue why I should give a rat's ass about any of it.

Now that we understand each other, carry on. I've just about drawn my circle here.
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  #62  
Old 11-06-2017, 12:16 PM
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The Horde still has Silverpine and Hillsbrad apparently, so I'd expect the Alliance to still have some night elf zones.
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  #63  
Old 11-06-2017, 12:22 PM
Noitora Noitora is offline

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The Horde still has Silverpine and Hillsbrad apparently, so I'd expect the Alliance to still have some night elf zones.
That’s optimistic considering how often the night elves get fucked.
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All this faction bitching and people arguing with each other and it's Fojar of all people that comes in with reasonable positivity.
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  #64  
Old 11-06-2017, 12:28 PM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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Which then gets us to the matter of keeping/retaking the rest of northern Kalimdor up to Ashenvale. With absolute zero trust in the latter, as I already said, only the former is an option.
I expect you'll still have land. There's got to be room for opening up new Battlefronts after all, and there's not much room for Faction War if there's nothing left to contest or fight over.

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The Stormsong Valley sea priests have tentacle designs covering their armor and a giant kraken carved into the mountain above their temple. Even their water elementals have face tentacles, based on the art in the boss design panel. I really want to be wrong but right now they look to be Twilight's Hammer in every way but name.
There's a key difference here between them and the Twilight's Hammer. They have a giant Kraken carved into a mountain above their temple. They have a history in Kul Tiras. They have a place within its culture. If their system of worship really does stem from N'zoth, that means N'zoth has succeeded in hiding the darker side of his faith. He has made himself appear benign to the Kul Tiran people.

How would they have ever managed that if they were just babbling and screaming, while publicly sacrificing children? This gives us an opportunity for something new. To see how an Old God sells itself to people, how it garners their loyalty, and what kind ideology it promotes.
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  #65  
Old 11-06-2017, 05:10 PM
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I expect you'll still have land. There's got to be room for opening up new Battlefronts after all, and there's not much room for Faction War if there's nothing left to contest or fight over.



There's a key difference here between them and the Twilight's Hammer. They have a giant Kraken carved into a mountain above their temple. They have a history in Kul Tiras. They have a place within its culture. If their system of worship really does stem from N'zoth, that means N'zoth has succeeded in hiding the darker side of his faith. He has made himself appear benign to the Kul Tiran people.

How would they have ever managed that if they were just babbling and screaming, while publicly sacrificing children? This gives us an opportunity for something new. To see how an Old God sells itself to people, how it garners their loyalty, and what kind ideology it promotes.
Not to mention the mysteries surrounding Drustvar, as well as the witchcraft that the players have to cleanse.

Said witchcraft is probably tied to the void, but it's way more subtle.

There's also the political threats across the entirety of Kul Tiras.
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  #66  
Old 11-06-2017, 05:25 PM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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Not to mention the mysteries surrounding Drustvar, as well as the witchcraft that the players have to cleanse.

Said witchcraft is probably tied to the void, but it's way more subtle.

There's also the political threats across the entirety of Kul Tiras.
Actually, I think the Drustvar Witchcraft is going to be a closer thematic tie-in with Argus. They've really settled in on what they want their Death Magic to look like now, and we can see that both Zandalar and Kul Tiras have prominent Death Spirits, through Bwonsamdi and the Drust, and both have an Old God influence of a sort. Of course, Death and Void are related powers.

Right now, I'm wondering why the Kul Tirans felt the need to exterminate the Drust. What drove them to it? What we've seen of Drust in concept art just makes them look like a human variant.
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  #67  
Old 11-06-2017, 05:56 PM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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I just find it irritating that their "claim" of total control falls the fuck apart the day of their major interviews; they went from "Horde controls all of Kalimdor, Alliance the whole of Eastern Kingdoms"(minus the instanced areas for Draenei and Blood Elves, naturally) to "oh well the alliance attacks lordaeron but horde still control 2/3rds of it" yet curiously keep on the whole "Horde controls Kalimdor" shit.

Now people are parroting conspiracy theories that the Alliance burns down Teldrassil to get Anduin to attack Lordaeron. Like, what the fuck? That's like some Alex Jones level conspiracy theory.
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Old 11-06-2017, 06:33 PM
Mutterscrawl Mutterscrawl is offline

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Actually, I think the Drustvar Witchcraft is going to be a closer thematic tie-in with Argus. .
That's an interesting angle, can you elaborate?
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  #69  
Old 11-06-2017, 07:07 PM
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The Drustvar witches are using death magic to fuel their druidism (somehow), and Argus the boss uses death magic too.
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  #70  
Old 11-06-2017, 07:16 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Considering the reputation you had in the past you're being remarkably patient with someone whose entire argument is "I liek thing, therefore it gudd story" with the occasional standby in "Cry sum mor".
Krainz I think has one of the most fascinating arguments I've been seeing here. I'm learning something from him. How can I be upset?

He demonstrates something to me that a lot of the forsaken posters I've been looking at on the Story Forums also mirror. I half expected to see "really? The Alliance is raiding another Horde capitol?", but I didn't. They're happy as a clam about this.

They seem to view this destabilization as a good thing, and I don't think they're exactly clamoring for the Forsaken to be portrayed as being kicked. They're confident that during the war, the Forsaken are going to get a chance to bring war to the Alliance. "Bring it on!" their behavior screams. The Dark Lady will carry us to victory!

That's just fine. They're power fantasy Horde. I'm power fantasy Alliance. I respect that they want war between the factions. I've been wanting it for years. I agree with Krainz 100% that I didn't appreciate fighting tentacles and green demons. I wanted to fight the other faction.

So why am I not over the moon about this? Why aren't other Night Elf fans?

Well, this goes back to my point. We have no reason whatsoever to trust that the writers will use this to portray the Night Elves as being in any way threatening, formidable, or even likeable. There's too much history that tells us that exactly the opposite is true, and they haven't brought out anything subsequent that says that it's going to be the opposite. Hell, even when they had said the opposite (remember Kosak's interviews, anyone?) it was revealed to be a lie.

So Krainz in a way nicely underlines my point.

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And that would of course get in the way of this plan of handing just about all of the continent to the horde, not to mention the faction-bias-obsessed, flag-counting lunatics who are more into maths than writing, which means I'm probably dreaming, you're probably right, and I still have no f*king clue why I should give a rat's ass about any of it.
You shouldn't.

No Night Elf fan should. No non-human Alliance fan should. You should not expect the writers to ever give you what you want, because they've shown absolute contempt for you in the past.

In a way, I have returned to let my people go. Life gets better when you leave this franchise. Rather than being consumed by anger every time they pull something like this, a sense of serenity is always there to catch you. "It's silly for me to be upset about this. I don't have to have consume this anymore. I am free of it."

Be free, my friend. Be free.

... or at least stop paying Activision-Blizzard until they get their act together.

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The real question is if they've learned enough to make it an enjoyable story this time around, and not just another incident for everyone to spit venom over. The Horde needs to feel justified in their actions, and players will do some of that work to find some explanation, but it needs to be properly shown ingame that they're not just reverting to Warcraft 2's Horde again.
ABOUT THAT!

I have a question for Horde players. Since Saurfang is featured prominently in the marketing for this thing. Who do you all think this lovely mass murderer and future raid boss is?

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Old 11-06-2017, 07:20 PM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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Kyalin, you should know by now that the Horde are the biggest fucking hypocrites on planet Azeroth.

They claim to be all shamanism and respect for the land and spirits yet are now lead by a woman who made literal death camps, raised the dead to fight for her, uses ex-Scourge undead Vrykul ladies to keep herself alive and willingly poisons the land around her with Blight.

And none of them have had jack shit to say about it thus far nor will they; likely as not they will blindly follow her into the abyss because she screamed FOR THE HORDE at them.
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  #72  
Old 11-06-2017, 07:36 PM
Kyalin V. Raintree Kyalin V. Raintree is offline

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Kyalin, you should know by now that the Horde are the biggest fucking hypocrites on planet Azeroth.

They claim to be all shamanism and respect for the land and spirits yet are now lead by a woman who made literal death camps, raised the dead to fight for her, uses ex-Scourge undead Vrykul ladies to keep herself alive and willingly poisons the land around her with Blight.

And none of them have had jack shit to say about it thus far nor will they; likely as not they will blindly follow her into the abyss because she screamed FOR THE HORDE at them.
Hello Quirn, how are you!?

Well, on this point, if we are forced to admit that, it's quite sad for the Horde as I've explained earlier. Their earlier themes are being ripped to pieces because we evidently want a war.

I've said this before, but please turn your anger away from the Horde on this. Horde posters aren't responsible for this one. Many Horde players are probably just as upset as you are. The writers are responsible for this. They deserve your ire, not the Horde.
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  #73  
Old 11-06-2017, 07:38 PM
Krakhed Krakhed is offline

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That's an interesting angle, can you elaborate?
Basically, I think Blizzard like to make raid bosses near the end of expansions that have some kind of thematic link to the next. With Argus the Death Titan, they've clearly made a lot of good magic effects for death magic and given it a distinctive look.

With Sylvanas being a major character and both island nations having a significant presence of Death spirits, I'm just getting the impression there's going to be a Shadowlands/Death magic subplot and both factions are going to learn more about it.
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ABOUT THAT!

I have a question for Horde players. Since Saurfang is featured prominently in the marketing for this thing. Who do you all think this lovely mass murderer and future raid boss is?
Probably Saurfang, going by the silhouette. I honestly don't know how the fuck they'll justify this action, and I just have no real interest in making excuses. If Blizzard doesn't give a convincing reason, I'm not going to reach for one. Making Sylvanas Warchief is just a terrible idea, because she's inherently incompatible with that position. No one should be following her.

But hey, they wanted a Faction War. That's the same reason we got Garrosh. Now we have Sylvanas. As for this?

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He demonstrates something to me that a lot of the forsaken posters I've been looking at on the Story Forums also mirror. I half expected to see "really? The Alliance is raiding another Horde capitol?", but I didn't. They're happy as a clam about this.
I honestly just can't work up the faction pride any more. I want the Horde to do well, but I want to see it repaired before I'm willing to follow someone shouting "For the Horde". I used to be attached to the Undercity, and now we're losing it. So where will the Forsaken be based now? Where will they go? We can't just bring all of our themes to Orgrimmar, because it doesn't fit. The Forsaken can work as foreign allies to the Horde, but you can't just shove their themes directly together.

Where will the Forsaken cook up blight? Where will they raise the dead? Where will we build our spooky Halloween towns and project our distinctly Forsaken power from? Sylvanas is Warchief, and yet I'm left wondering if the Forsaken as a whole are going to lose out for that. Are they using this as some way to assimilate the Forsaken into broader Horde culture?
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  #74  
Old 11-06-2017, 07:55 PM
Quirnheim Quirnheim is offline

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Originally Posted by Kyalin V. Raintree View Post
Hello Quirn, how are you!?

Well, on this point, if we are forced to admit that, it's quite sad for the Horde as I've explained earlier. Their earlier themes are being ripped to pieces because we evidently want a war.

I've said this before, but please turn your anger away from the Horde on this. Horde posters aren't responsible for this one. Many Horde players are probably just as upset as you are. The writers are responsible for this. They deserve your ire, not the Horde.
My ire is directed at the writers in general, you are correct.

But some of the...obnoxious behavior of certain Horde players has left a bitter taste in my mouth over the years.
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Fuck your dumb gamergate shit I'd rather be pegged by Sylvanas than read it.
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Just remember, the Alliance is only ever allowed to passively defend itself against the Horde, and Taurajo was Azeroth's equivalent of the Holocaust.
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Old 11-06-2017, 09:00 PM
Sa'danak Sa'danak is offline

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Originally Posted by Krakhed View Post
Basically, I think Blizzard like to make raid bosses near the end of expansions that have some kind of thematic link to the next. With Argus the Death Titan, they've clearly made a lot of good magic effects for death magic and given it a distinctive look.

With Sylvanas being a major character and both island nations having a significant presence of Death spirits, I'm just getting the impression there's going to be a Shadowlands/Death magic subplot and both factions are going to learn more about it.
I'm hoping you're right. Its an underexplored theme so far and i'm currently desperately looking for a reason to not be ultra jealous by how much more interesting the Zandalari Horde experience looks.

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Probably Saurfang, going by the silhouette. I honestly don't know how the fuck they'll justify this action, and I just have no real interest in making excuses. If Blizzard doesn't give a convincing reason, I'm not going to reach for one. Making Sylvanas Warchief is just a terrible idea, because she's inherently incompatible with that position. No one should be following her.
One would hope the story isn't so far gone that they've forgotten the entire premise of Saurfangs character. Him not being present when the tree is actually on fire suggests something is afoot. Nathanos is also gone even though i'm sure that he wouldn't be bothered at all by that trees demise so i'd guess the 2 are related. Just spitballing here but maybe Saurfang went there on a different premise, realised what was going on and him and Nathanos are throwing down in the background somewhere. We can hope...

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I honestly just can't work up the faction pride any more. I want the Horde to do well, but I want to see it repaired before I'm willing to follow someone shouting "For the Horde". I used to be attached to the Undercity, and now we're losing it. So where will the Forsaken be based now? Where will they go? We can't just bring all of our themes to Orgrimmar, because it doesn't fit. The Forsaken can work as foreign allies to the Horde, but you can't just shove their themes directly together.

Where will the Forsaken cook up blight? Where will they raise the dead? Where will we build our spooky Halloween towns and project our distinctly Forsaken power from? Sylvanas is Warchief, and yet I'm left wondering if the Forsaken as a whole are going to lose out for that. Are they using this as some way to assimilate the Forsaken into broader Horde culture?
If they actually wanted to put some effort in and actually bother bringing the two BC areas into the main world then they have a perfectly viable option in having the Forsaken pull back to Silvermoon, booting out the tiny number of wretched and converting the ruined half of the city to their purposes. Would give them a chance to use all the gothic architecture they have designed for them over the years. Would only displace half a dozen belf quests of little consequence and could tie in thematically to a potential allied race in undead elves.

I wish it were so easy for the Night Elves. They are defined by the land they reside in right now and every other viable location is defined by a neutral druidic faction and the last thing they need is to be hamstrung even further by being tied at the hip to a neutral force that inherently cannot participate in anything related to the expansion theme. Really praying that Tel'drassil isn't as it seems and it burns for a while before being put out and fixed.
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