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  #126  
Old 07-19-2010, 10:55 AM
Fordragon Fordragon is offline

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Analogies to modern states fall apart because there are more than two power blocs. Try Cold War analogies instead. Moscow said jump, the rest of the pact shat themselves and jumped as high as they could.
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  #127  
Old 07-19-2010, 11:37 AM
Havard Havard is offline

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Originally Posted by Fordragon View Post
Analogies to modern states fall apart because there are more than two power blocs. Try Cold War analogies instead. Moscow said jump, the rest of the pact shat themselves and jumped as high as they could.
Wait what?

First off, if you don't like my analogy, please make the connection of what the number of major factions has to do with my analogy actually failing. Because it's not apparent.

Secondly, the Horde is nothing like the Warsaw Pact. The Soviets subverted the Eastern bloc countries' politics and implemented puppet regimes well before the signing of the Pact.
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  #128  
Old 07-19-2010, 11:56 AM
Fordragon Fordragon is offline

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Power in the modern world is far too all-over-the-place for a proper comparison. Power in Azeroth is delineated along a very clear line: mortal nation-states are either Horde or Alliance. The political status quo in Azeroth was pretty clearly Cold War-inspired: you had two sides, opposed to each other based primarily on questions of ideology, and the lead states of each side were busy dividing up all the major players in the world in to two teams.

Other than Switzerland, who controlled more or less all global finance, there was no real room for neutrality outside of Third World powers so minor they might as well not exist. In such a scenario, you have no other option but to follow the lead of the most powerful nation-states in your Bloc because alone, you are easy pickings for the other guy to expand his holdings into.
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  #129  
Old 07-19-2010, 12:19 PM
Iikai Iikai is offline

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It really doesn't matter if Thrall, Garrosh, or anyone leading the Horde does or doesn't do anything to keep Sylvanas in line. We have clearly seen she does what she wants regardless what other think, including her own "people". She has basically given into despair, anger, and vengeance ten times over and it doesn't matter who you are if you stand in her way she will do what she wants.

I'd really love to see the next leader of the Forsaken be a Priest type who controls the power of shadow.

Personally if I was an adviser for Varian I would tell him to withdrawal all Alliance from most of Lordaeron, specially the plaguelands, and focus attention on the southern areas. It would then maybe force Sylvanas to show her true colors to the Argent Crusade, instead of their attention being divided by the remaning scourge, and the Alliance acting like children claiming they still own the lands in Lordaeron. (And I say this as someone who considers himself an Alliance fanboy =P )
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  #130  
Old 07-19-2010, 12:47 PM
Thekar Thekar is offline

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Originally Posted by Fordragon View Post
Analogies to modern states fall apart because there are more than two power blocs. Try Cold War analogies instead. Moscow said jump, the rest of the pact shat themselves and jumped as high as they could.
Unless your name was China or Yugoslavia.
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  #131  
Old 07-19-2010, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Jigsaw Complex View Post
I see you on the side of the road. You need help, so i invite you into my car. I have 2 other friends with me. They asked if i would turn around, i said no, and they listened cause it's my car. You decide you don't like the way we're all headed, so you grab the wheel out of my hand and almost cause a wreck. I back hand you with my ring hand and kick you out of the car.

That is exactly what should have happened after Wrathgate.

The Horde is a dictatorship; the Alliance isn't. The Horde is Thrall's car, and he has to take responsibility for letting a crazy woman grab the wheel and endanger the lives of anybody else in the Horde-mobile.
That analogy would work if it accurately described the political situation of the Horde, but it does not. To get back at the original point that started this all:
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Originally Posted by Ornhelm View Post
That's just a monument to how stupid the Horde was for giving that much power to a demon. A demon that specifically specifies in treachery.
In this case, neither Thrall nor the Horde as a political entity in and of itself was responsible for the appointment of Varimathras. It was Sylvanas's responsibility as Queen of the Forsaken. Varmathras was already an integral part of Undercity's political structure prior to their induction in the Horde. When Varimathras betrayed the Horde in a coup d'etat, Queen Sylvanas was the one who had to answer and take responsibility for her own carelessness.

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Originally Posted by Yuber8900 View Post
That's a military-only position. Warchief is the military leader, leader of the orcs and leader of the Horde.
Point conceded.

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So essentially what you're saying is "Because we didn't see the Forsaken take their oath, they didn't have one at all and all evidence pointing towards the Warchief being in ultimate power for all those involved doesn't apply!"
No. I am saying that the taunka swore themselves under the direct authority of the Warchief, a position shared by the tauren and trolls. The Forsaken, however, are described as nominal allies of convenience. The blood elves also do not join via blood oath, but through simply delivering a letter of intent to join the Horde through a list of their accomplishments and Sylvanas's seal of endorsement. Sylvanas wants Silvermoon as equals beside Undercity [i]and Orgrimmar[i] at the negotiating table. Thrall reads the letter and then just says, "Welcome to the Horde, elf."

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What?

I'm sorry that the most known real world dictatorships have been bad, but that is the correct term for the political structure of the Horde.
Because the obvious political structure of chiefdom with Warchief as the Paramount Chief would just be too obvious.
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  #132  
Old 07-19-2010, 01:10 PM
Stackattack Stackattack is offline

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Originally Posted by Thekar View Post
Unless your name was China or Yugoslavia.
look how that worked out for us xP
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  #133  
Old 07-19-2010, 01:41 PM
Jigsaw Complex Jigsaw Complex is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
That analogy would work if it accurately described the political situation of the Horde, but it does not.
Mind telling me exactly what the political situation of the Horde is? I've said it over and over again, there hasn't been a situation until WotLK! This game was completely static until WotLK came out!

And while your at it, go ahead and tell me how the analogy didn't work. Thrall saw Sylvanas needed help, and let the Forsaken into the Horde. It doesn't matter whether or not the Forsaken swore anything to Thrall or the Horde. They faced destruction, Thrall saved their asses, and Sylvanas has done nothing but plot to kill every one!

Cairne and Vol'jin don't pull this shit because they understand the situation and benefit from the Horde as much as they put into it. What is there for Sylvanas to benefit? All the Forsaken gain is protection until they have their little doomsday plan ready and they are almost have it done.
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  #134  
Old 07-19-2010, 02:06 PM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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Originally Posted by Jigsaw Complex View Post
Mind telling me exactly what the political situation of the Horde is? I've said it over and over again, there hasn't been a situation until WotLK! This game was completely static until WotLK came out!
Although there has not been a "situation" the magnitude of the Wrathgate, that does not mean that the Horde was devoid of politics or ambiguous on its political situation. The WoW manual, RPG sourcebooks, and other materials described the tenuous political situation of the "static" game that exists outside of the game restrained by repeated game-playability.

Quote:
And while your at it, go ahead and tell me how the analogy didn't work. Thrall saw Sylvanas needed help, and let the Forsaken into the Horde. It doesn't matter whether or not the Forsaken swore anything to Thrall or the Horde. They faced destruction, Thrall saved their asses, and Sylvanas has done nothing but plot to kill every one!

Cairne and Vol'jin don't pull this shit because they understand the situation and benefit from the Horde as much as they put into it. What is there for Sylvanas to benefit? All the Forsaken gain is protection until they have their little doomsday plan ready and they are almost have it done.
Picking up a hitchhiker does not mean that all people in the car are headed to the same destination. And it does not account for Varimathras. How does he fit into the analogy if only Sylvanas was picked up? And as Undercity, Thunder Bluff, and now the Echo Isles are semi-autonomous, it is hard to claim that they are all driving in the car together.
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  #135  
Old 07-20-2010, 09:48 AM
Havard Havard is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
Although there has not been a "situation" the magnitude of the Wrathgate, that does not mean that the Horde was devoid of politics or ambiguous on its political situation. The WoW manual, RPG sourcebooks, and other materials described the tenuous political situation of the "static" game that exists outside of the game restrained by repeated game-playability.
Pretty much this. There's also plenty of lore in WoW itself that hints at the tensions in the Forsaken-Horde relationship. If Forsaken NPC's show deference to anyone, it's Sylvanas. And they pretty much only talk about their own plight and purposes, not that of the greater Horde.
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  #136  
Old 07-21-2010, 07:35 PM
Hufflepuffer007 Hufflepuffer007 is offline

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Well, I doubt the Horde would see any situation as "Well, they left, but they never swore a blood oath anyways, they can go."

The Horde has ALWAYS been a Military Dictatorship. There has been a benevolent dictator recently, but for the majority of the Horde's history the leaders have always been bloodthirsty, tempermental, and impatient. Sometimes honorable. Sylvannas can't leave the Horde, because the Horde will not accept such a show of weakness and dishonor.

If you're in the Horde, you work for the Warchief. No matter how tenuous your respect is for him. You don't get to say "Well your way is stupid, I'm doing it my way instead." Before, Thrall would just say whatever. Now, Garrosh will cleave your face off and ask if there were any questions.

I like that the Horde's leash just got shortened. They're much more intimidating and unified that way. If Sylvannas leaves, she dies. New leader, Forsaken as a whole stay in the Horde.
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  #137  
Old 07-21-2010, 08:38 PM
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The Horde is not a true military dictatorship. It's a more centralized and sophisticated chiefdom. The Horde is made up of various clan chiefs led by a central warchief. The Horde was originally ruled by a magocratic oligarchy (Shadow Council) with subservient clan chiefs. When the clans' war effort turned out to be unorganized and subject to inter-conflict, the Shadow Council placed Blackhand as the Warchief. But the Shadow Council was above the Warchief. When Orgrim Doomhammer slew the Shadow Council, he shifted the balance of power from the Shadow Council to the Warchief.

Following the dissolution of the Horde and the formation of the New Horde, the organizational power shifted again. Power lies mostly in the hand of the Warchief, who is still the paramount chief among other clan chiefs. Although Thrall is the Warchief, he still remains the Chief of the Frostwolf Clan. Just like how Garrosh will be both Warchief and Chief of the Warsong Clan. The inclusion of the trolls and tauren into the Horde adds further hierarchical complexity. Vol'jin acts as the chief of the Darkspear Tribe, which is made up of individual clans. Cairne/Baine acts as chief over all tauren clan chiefs. Both are placed into subservient positions under the orc warchief due to their protectorate status. Yet the title of Warchief can hypothetically be claimed through duel by those within either orc, troll, or tauren society.

Although once originally tauren, the Earthen Ring, as a shamanistic council of elders, effectively acted in a similar capacity as the Shadow Council. The expansion of the Earthen Ring to races outside of the faction and its new found neutral status is honestly somewhat puzzling in terms of its effect on Horde politics.
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  #138  
Old 07-21-2010, 09:10 PM
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I wonder how the goblins will fit into this, while they seem to go further than the blood elves and the forsaken, because Thrall himself is there to accept them in, he doesn't swear a blood oath, in the way the Taunka's did.
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  #139  
Old 07-22-2010, 06:47 AM
Havard Havard is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hufflepuffer007 View Post
Well, I doubt the Horde would see any situation as "Well, they left, but they never swore a blood oath anyways, they can go."

The Horde has ALWAYS been a Military Dictatorship. There has been a benevolent dictator recently, but for the majority of the Horde's history the leaders have always been bloodthirsty, tempermental, and impatient. Sometimes honorable. Sylvannas can't leave the Horde, because the Horde will not accept such a show of weakness and dishonor.

If you're in the Horde, you work for the Warchief. No matter how tenuous your respect is for him. You don't get to say "Well your way is stupid, I'm doing it my way instead." Before, Thrall would just say whatever. Now, Garrosh will cleave your face off and ask if there were any questions.

I like that the Horde's leash just got shortened. They're much more intimidating and unified that way. If Sylvannas leaves, she dies. New leader, Forsaken as a whole stay in the Horde.
Your posts makes it sound like there's been this long tradition within the Horde. There hasn't.

A) The original Horde never existed before the prior (Durotan/Doomhammer/Blackhand) generation.
B) The original only existed during the period of wars that the Shadow Coucil/Legion started, and it only lasted two Warchiefs.
C) Thrall's Horde is the New Horde, a very different animal from the original Horde.
D) Thrall has expressed a desire to return to the old ways, i.e., shamanism, deference to clan leaders, etc.
E) The New Horde aren't just grunts. There are farmers, fishermen, craftsmen, and merchants seeking to make an honest living on Kalimdor. The original Horde was 100% militarized.
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  #140  
Old 07-22-2010, 10:04 AM
Thekar Thekar is offline

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When the Forsaken joined the Horde it wasn't a military dictatorship in the sense that Thrall had control over everything within it. The Forsaken weren't his subjects, they were his allies. Whether or not it made sense for Thrall to grant such autonomy or whether he had the power to directly control them at the time (I'm not sure when the Kor'kron were first formed) the fact remains that Undercity wasn't a territory of the Horde in the sense that Puerto Rico is a territory of the USA. It was more like an ally that Thrall gave marching orders to but didn't directly control.
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  #141  
Old 07-22-2010, 11:32 AM
Saranus Saranus is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thekar View Post
When the Forsaken joined the Horde it wasn't a military dictatorship in the sense that Thrall had control over everything within it. The Forsaken weren't his subjects, they were his allies. Whether or not it made sense for Thrall to grant such autonomy or whether he had the power to directly control them at the time (I'm not sure when the Kor'kron were first formed) the fact remains that Undercity wasn't a territory of the Horde in the sense that Puerto Rico is a territory of the USA. It was more like an ally that Thrall gave marching orders to but didn't directly control.
The Kor'kron have been in Grommash Hold as Thrall's personal elite guard since early in Vanilla. They've only been in Undercity since Wrath.
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