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  #76  
Old 07-20-2016, 04:42 PM
Lord Eliphas Lord Eliphas is offline

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Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
But yes, most of what we know about his life, unsurprisingly, does come from his followers (i.e. early proto-Christians), primarily in the epistles and Gospels, though these are not exactly given too much historical weight in terms of biographical veracity.
That's mostly due to the age-gap between the various gospels, from Paulician shit being the oldest [and at times not even written by who we surmise 'Paul' is], and I think Matthew or Luke is one of the younger sections of the Bible.
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  #77  
Old 07-20-2016, 05:45 PM
Galdus Galdus is offline

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Reminder, anything of note about Christianity filled Europe you name (be it science, conquest, what have you) should be pinned on the Greeks and later the Romans. It's like how a significant amount of inventions or discoveries in Islam's Golden Age should be pinned on non-Muslim minorities or pre-Islamic civilization.
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  #78  
Old 07-20-2016, 05:59 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
That being said, the Satanic Temple has about as much connection, ironically, to the Satanism of medieval witch-hunts as contemporary Mormonism has to early Christianity, but there's still a clear continuity (mostly based on being a dick)
Witch-hunts were primarily a Late-Middle Ages/Early Modern phenomenon. The Inquisition would not regularly burn people for witchcraft and had a fairly extensive process for their trials.

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The Basque witch trials of the 17th century represent the most ambitious attempt at rooting out witchcraft ever undertaken by the Spanish Inquisition. The trial of the Basque witches at Logroño, near Navarre, in northern Spain, which began in January 1609, against the background of similar persecutions conducted in Labourd by Pierre de Lancre, was almost certainly the biggest single event of its kind in history. By the end some 7,000 cases had been examined by the Inquisition. Although Logroño is not a Basque city, it was the setting for an Inquisition tribunal responsible for the Kingdom of Navarre, Alava, Gipuzkoa, Biscay, La Rioja and the North of Burgos and Soria. Among the accused were not only women (although they predominated), but also children and men, including priests guilty of healing with nóminas, amulets with names of saints. The first phase ended in 1610, with a declaration of auto-da-fé against thirty-one of the accused, twelve or eleven of whom were burned to death (five of them symbolically, as they had died before auto-da-fé)
So very few people were actually burned during the largest witch-hunt ever. The head judge, again just quoting Wikipedia said this about the whole thing:

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The real question is: are we to believe that witchcraft occurred in a given situation simply because of what the witches claim? No: it is clear that the witches are not to be believed, and the judges should not pass sentence on anyone, unless the case can be proven with external and objective evidence sufficient to convince everyone who hears it. And who can accept the following: that a person can frequently fly through the air and travel a hundred leagues in an hour; that a woman can get through a space not big enough for a fly; that a person can make himself invisible; that he can be in a river or the open sea and not get wet; or that he can be in bed at the sabbath at the same time... and that a witch can turn herself into any shape she fancies, be it housefly or raven? Indeed, these claims go beyond all human reason and may even pass the limits permitted by the Devil.
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  #79  
Old 07-20-2016, 06:11 PM
ijffdrie ijffdrie is offline

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*Knock*
*Knock*
It's the inquisition.

][


I'm noticing an odd shortage of skulls, eagles and gold in this here neighborhood...
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  #80  
Old 07-20-2016, 06:22 PM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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Which Inquisition we talking about here?
Cause there's the Churches Inquisition (a lot less bloody, more controlled) and then there's the infamous Spanish Inquisition (launched by Spain's Catholic monarchy).

IIRC, the inquisition wasn't as bloody as it is to be believed and they rarely had executions.
That being said, torture was a routine around the time (although the Churches form was more limited) and while many weren't executed they did end up dying of other complications.
Needless to say jails aren't very nice nor is torture.
Or...maybe it wasn't so bad afterall....
Hell,as for witch tries the Catholic Church disavowed the existence of witches altogether if memory serves.

Literally more Protestant stupidity.
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  #81  
Old 07-20-2016, 06:36 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by Taintedmage View Post
Which Inquisition we talking about here?
Cause there's the Churches Inquisition (a lot less bloody, more controlled) and then there's the infamous Spanish Inquisition (launched by Spain's Catholic monarchy).

IIRC, the inquisition wasn't as bloody as it is to be believed and they rarely had executions.
That being said, torture was a routine around the time (although the Churches form was more limited) and while many weren't executed they did end up dying of other complications.
Needless to say jails aren't very nice nor is torture.
Or...maybe it wasn't so bad afterall....
Hell,as for witch tries the Catholic Church disavowed the existence of witches altogether if memory serves.

Literally more Protestant stupidity.
The Spanish Inquisition was just a branch of the overall Inquisition.
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  #82  
Old 07-20-2016, 07:01 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
The Spanish Inquisition was just a branch of the overall Inquisition.
From my understanding, the problem with the Spanish Inquisition was that the Spanish Crown got involved, and basically decided to use it as a revenue extraction mechanism. The Inquisition as a whole operated under a pretty high standard of the burden of proof.

And yeah, the witch burnings mostly came after the Middle Ages. It's been theorized that this was partially caused by the global cooling of the time, which tainted the grain (potentially with hallucinogenic molds). You also had the chaos of the Reformation which undermined faith in traditional authorities and institutions, leading to more of a vigilante approach.
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  #83  
Old 07-20-2016, 07:03 PM
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Neat.
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  #84  
Old 07-20-2016, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Mertico View Post
Witch-hunts were primarily a Late-Middle Ages/Early Modern phenomenon. The Inquisition would not regularly burn people for witchcraft and had a fairly extensive process for their trials.



So very few people were actually burned during the largest witch-hunt ever. The head judge, again just quoting Wikipedia said this about the whole thing:
I'm pretty sure there were scattered hunts for "sorcerers" accused of devil worship in England around the times of Caedmon at the very least; not the organized inquisition we think about today, but witch hunts have been going on for a while, roughly contemporaneous with the rise of Mystery Plays.
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  #85  
Old 07-20-2016, 07:17 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
I'm pretty sure there were scattered hunts for "sorcerers" accused of devil worship in England around the times of Caedmon at the very least; not the organized inquisition we think about today, but witch hunts have been going on for a while, roughly contemporaneous with the rise of Mystery Plays.
According to the article linked earlier, the Inquisition was designed to stop or at least ameliorate these things. When the local yahoos get worried about a witch, they aren't likely to pay much attention to evidence (or even know much about Christian theology). The Inquisition were done so that educated experts could take a look.
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  #86  
Old 07-20-2016, 07:21 PM
Shekinah Shekinah is offline

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Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
According to the article linked earlier, the Inquisition was designed to stop or at least ameliorate these things. When the local yahoos get worried about a witch, they aren't likely to pay much attention to evidence (or even know much about Christian theology). The Inquisition were done so that educated experts could take a look.
So, logically...

If... she... weighs... the same as a duck... she's made of wood.

And therefore...

I'm lost.
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  #87  
Old 07-20-2016, 07:25 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Originally Posted by Shekinah View Post
So, logically...

If... she... weighs... the same as a duck... she's made of wood.

And therefore...

I'm lost.
The Inquisition would try to figure out what it was she was accused of, determine if it was actually heretical or not, and hold something approaching a trial. They acquitted many of the accused because they held themselves to a high standard of proof. Those found guilty would usually still have a chance to apologize.
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  #88  
Old 07-20-2016, 07:29 PM
Omacron Omacron is offline


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Most of the Catholic Inquisition was more concerned with protestants and Jews than Satanists, anyway.
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  #89  
Old 07-20-2016, 07:36 PM
Shekinah Shekinah is offline

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Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
The Inquisition would try to figure out what it was she was accused of, determine if it was actually heretical or not, and hold something approaching a trial. They acquitted many of the accused because they held themselves to a high standard of proof. Those found guilty would usually still have a chance to apologize.
But what about the local yahoos?
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  #90  
Old 07-20-2016, 07:42 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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But what about the local yahoos?
They knew better than to critique the opinion of people who'd actually done their studies.
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  #91  
Old 07-20-2016, 07:59 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by HlaaluStyle View Post
From my understanding, the problem with the Spanish Inquisition was that the Spanish Crown got involved, and basically decided to use it as a revenue extraction mechanism. The Inquisition as a whole operated under a pretty high standard of the burden of proof.

And yeah, the witch burnings mostly came after the Middle Ages. It's been theorized that this was partially caused by the global cooling of the time, which tainted the grain (potentially with hallucinogenic molds). You also had the chaos of the Reformation which undermined faith in traditional authorities and institutions, leading to more of a vigilante approach.
The Spanish Crown had rightful fears of Muslims due only just finishing the Reconquest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shekinah View Post
But what about the local yahoos?
The above quote shows what the Inquisition thought of the local yahoos. Which is to say, not much.
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  #92  
Old 07-20-2016, 08:07 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Galdus View Post
Reminder, anything of note about Christianity filled Europe you name (be it science, conquest, what have you) should be pinned on the Greeks and later the Romans. It's like how a significant amount of inventions or discoveries in Islam's Golden Age should be pinned on non-Muslim minorities or pre-Islamic civilization.
So... the Greeks and Romans get credit for genetics, the university system, the paintings in the Sistine Chapel, harassing Galileo, and the Crusades?

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 07-20-2016 at 08:10 PM..
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  #93  
Old 07-20-2016, 09:02 PM
Taintedmage Taintedmage is offline

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Query, were the Crusades a defensive war?
We know from the speech at the Council of Clermont that Urban the II used the justification of the Seljuk Turks and the Arabs but I've heard of other reasons.

Last edited by Taintedmage; 07-20-2016 at 09:05 PM..
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  #94  
Old 07-20-2016, 09:09 PM
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Query, were the Crusades a defensive war?
We know from the speech at the Council of Clermont that Urban the II used the justification of the Seljuk Turks and the Arabs but I've heard of other reasons.
In almost every case they were political wars done under the pretext of religion like so many other wars of that time period.
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  #95  
Old 07-20-2016, 09:09 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Taintedmage View Post
Query, were the Crusades a defensive war?
We know from the speech at the Council of Clermont that Urban the II used the justification of the Seljuk Turks and the Arabs but I've heard of other reasons.
Like every war, they have a long list of motivations. "Protect our Christian allies in the east" was on the list.
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  #96  
Old 07-20-2016, 09:23 PM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Originally Posted by Taintedmage View Post
Query, were the Crusades a defensive war?
We know from the speech at the Council of Clermont that Urban the II used the justification of the Seljuk Turks and the Arabs but I've heard of other reasons.
Muhammad and his Caliphate invade, various Caliphs invade, Seljuks invade. There is still a sizable Christian population in the Middle East and Egypt. Anatolia is still Christian.

One argument is that this is the first wave or another wave of European colonization. If that were the case then what were the Crusaders colonizing or taking? It surely was not native Islamic lands, that was not the case yet. North Africa was not even fully Islamic yet (it still has a small Christian minority).
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  #97  
Old 07-20-2016, 11:28 PM
HlaaluStyle HlaaluStyle is offline

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Query, were the Crusades a defensive war?
We know from the speech at the Council of Clermont that Urban the II used the justification of the Seljuk Turks and the Arabs but I've heard of other reasons.
There's merit to the defensive war argument. Islam had been encroaching on Christian lands. However, it wasn't until the Seljuks started harassing pilgrims (whom the Abbasid authorities had largely left alone) that the church reacted.

Of course, this tends to play into the narrative of modern pundits who reduce history to a simple Christianity (plus Jews, depending on how generous they're feeling) vs. Everyone Else story. In reality, there were Christians who fought against the Crusaders and Muslims who fought alongside them. The resulting Crusader states were not terribly different from other kingdoms in the region. Anyone who thinks that the Crusades were a "colonization" effort is ill-informed.

You also had the Fourth Crusade, in which the Venetians took the Pope for a ride, and then looted Constantinople--the great bulwark of Christendom, without which Islam would have likely seized Europe--when called on it.

Later you had England and France making deals with the Ottoman Empire in order to weaken the Holy Roman Empire. I seem to recall the HRE, for their part, trying to make good with the Safavids in order to weaken the Ottomans, but I'm not a 100% sure about that. Regardless, nothing came of it.
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  #98  
Old 07-21-2016, 12:26 AM
Millenia Millenia is offline

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What historical documents are there about Jesus? I recall there might be a record of him on a census list somewhere and maybe a record of his execution? Basically all we know of Jesus (and I guess to a slightly lesser extent Muhammad) came from their followers and is appropriately awe inspiring.
Jesus was mentioned off-handedly by the Jewish scholar Josephus. He never converted to Christianity, so he had no reason to mention him unless he existed. Though, he never actually met the guy.

This is a good page to start reading about Jesus, and here is the page about Muhammad.
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Because if a storyteller is doing his job, he makes you care. And if that storyteller then says "I dunno, then they stopped fighting, I guess," without any explanation or clarification, his audience has every right to be pissed off. Because they were given reason to stay interested, reason to keep up with his tale, only to be shut down just as things were getting good. A waste of time, a waste of emotional tension, a waste, if you fail to grasp the significance of narrative, of money.
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  #99  
Old 07-21-2016, 06:03 AM
Genesis Genesis is offline

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So... the Greeks and Romans get credit for genetics, the university system, the paintings in the Sistine Chapel, harassing Galileo, and the Crusades?
Don't forget Roger Bacon.
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  #100  
Old 07-21-2016, 07:38 AM
Mertico Mertico is offline

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Galileo was an idiot who thought it was a good idea to criticize the people who were funding him (the Church) and call the Pope names and also go back on his word to not teach the idea of heliocentrism until he had more data.
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