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  #401  
Old 06-17-2017, 08:45 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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I am just worried that the government could try to tax churches out of existence or something if it saw them as a big enough threat. Governments seem to either like to destroy religion like China or co-opt it for ulterior reasons like Iran. Taxes are already levied unevenly depending on industry or company and the incentive and precedent to try and weaken churches seems to be there.

What exactly would they end up having to pay taxes on?
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  #402  
Old 06-17-2017, 08:57 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I rather the government becomes more mindful of the money it spends already than for it to feel like it can seek out more tax revenue to sustain itself.
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  #403  
Old 06-17-2017, 09:04 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Got the kids baptized. And now I never have to go through this again.
Husband's insistence?

Funny thing, I understand Eastern Rite Catholic Churches and Orthodox Churches practice infant baptism, confirmation, and first communion all at once. My three -year-old son probably would prefer to be raised in that rite; he gets jealous when we adults get to take eucharist and he doesn't.
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  #404  
Old 06-17-2017, 09:09 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Husband's insistence?

Funny thing, I understand Eastern Rite Catholic Churches and Orthodox Churches practice infant baptism, confirmation, and first communion all at once. My three -year-old son probably would prefer to be raised in that rite; he gets jealous when we adults get to take eucharist and he doesn't.
That's just because he's an alcoholic.
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  #405  
Old 06-17-2017, 09:33 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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That's just because he's an alcoholic.
As if! He's a cracker fiend.
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  #406  
Old 06-19-2017, 05:27 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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I wanted to buy beer on a Sunday so I had to drive all the way to Base to get it because you can't buy alcohol on Sundays here (military bases are only subject to federal law).
Why do Christians hate freedom so much?
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  #407  
Old 06-19-2017, 05:37 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I wanted to buy beer on a Sunday so I had to drive all the way to Base to get it because you can't buy alcohol on Sundays here (military bases are only subject to federal law).
Why do Christians hate freedom so much?
Why are you an alcoholic?
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  #408  
Old 06-19-2017, 05:52 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Why are you an alcoholic?
That is an offensive accusation that some forum members would report you for (I'm not that thin-skinned, though, so you're good).
I just want to know why some people apparently hate freedom. Are you one of them?
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  #409  
Old 06-19-2017, 06:36 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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That is an offensive accusation that some forum members would report you for (I'm not that thin-skinned, though, so you're good).
I just want to know why some people apparently hate freedom. Are you one of them?
And accusing Christians of hating freedom isn't an offensive accusation? How exactly does this work in your mind? In any case, I just wanted to know why do you deem alcohol so important in your life.

Anyway, go ahead and report me, I really care little for that.
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  #410  
Old 06-19-2017, 06:41 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

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We're all adults. Let's try look the part too.
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  #411  
Old 06-19-2017, 07:03 AM
Shekinah Shekinah is offline

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It's just an outdated law that governors/mayors haven't bothered to change.
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  #412  
Old 06-19-2017, 08:00 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Don't look at my church.

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Originally Posted by 1Timothy 5:23
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
You know who you should blame? The early women's rights movement.
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  #413  
Old 06-19-2017, 03:45 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Maybe they just want a monopoly on Sunday booze with that Jesus blood. Except for Catholics, of course, who believe they're literally drinking real blood (which is super creepy).
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  #414  
Old 06-19-2017, 04:06 PM
Ruinshin Ruinshin is offline

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Originally Posted by kakwakas View Post
maybe they just want a monopoly on sunday booze with that jesus blood. Except for catholics, of course, who believe they're literally drinking real blood (which is super sexy).
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  #415  
Old 06-19-2017, 04:06 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Maybe they just want a monopoly on Sunday booze with that Jesus blood. Except for Catholics, of course, who believe they're literally drinking real blood (which is super creepy).
So now you are accusing Catholics of believing they are vampires. Does it make you feel cool? Do you feel your existence is now somewhat more worthy, giving them what-for on an internet forum? Hopefully so, self-dignity is important when fighting alcohol addiction.
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  #416  
Old 06-19-2017, 04:17 PM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
So now you are accusing Catholics of believing they are vampires. Does it make you feel cool? Do you feel your existence is now somewhat more worthy, giving them what-for on an internet forum? Hopefully so, self-dignity is important when fighting alcohol addiction.
Last I checked, the Catholic church's official position is that transubstantiation is real. They believe that, through the rite of the Eucharist, the bread and wine literally turn into Jesus' flesh and blood. Don't get mad at me about it.
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  #417  
Old 06-19-2017, 04:20 PM
Anansi Anansi is offline

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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
They believe that, through the rite of the Eucharist, the bread and wine literally turn into Jesus' flesh and blood.
Strange, but true! I never really understood it, myself.
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  #418  
Old 06-19-2017, 05:00 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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You know who you should blame? The early women's rights movement.
But men get drunk and beat women!
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  #419  
Old 06-19-2017, 06:52 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
Maybe they just want a monopoly on Sunday booze with that Jesus blood. Except for Catholics, of course, who believe they're literally drinking real blood (which is super creepy).
The Orthodox, Coptic, and other pre-reformation trinitarian Christians likewise believe in the real presence. We don't hold monopoly over the teaching.

Plus the Lutherans and certain Anglicans have a different variation of it. Luther famously argued with Zwingli on the topic:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marburg_Colloquy

It was actually a significant benchmark on my personal road to conversion when I learned how common this belief was until the reformation.

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Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
Strange, but true! I never really understood it, myself.
The best way I wrap my mind around it is

Physical != Literal
Literally body and blood? Yes.
Truly body and blood? Yes.
Actually body and blood? Yes.
Completely and in its very substance? Yes.
Physically body and blood? No.

It's related to Aristotle's stuff about "accidents".
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_(philosophy)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substance_theory

Now I'll just vomit an apologetics post and a link to the catechism:
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/pr...-for-beginners
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_cs...m/p2s2c1a3.htm

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  #420  
Old 06-20-2017, 01:29 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by Kakwakas View Post
Last I checked, the Catholic church's official position is that transubstantiation is real. They believe that, through the rite of the Eucharist, the bread and wine literally turn into Jesus' flesh and blood. Don't get mad at me about it.
Have no worries, I am not mad at you, I am simply concerned for your well-being.

Now, as for transubstantiation, it seems you are misinterpreting the concept. I do not blame you, from what I could gather, you are a deeply materialistic person, and materialists have a hard time working with such concepts. Though it would be suitable to not be judgmental over something you are not familiar enough with.

So, what does transubstantiation truly mean? I will try to explain it differently than Grackle, hopefully to provide more angles. The concept is not supposed to transform the physical properties of wine and bread, at that level, they still remain the same. The wine still tastes like wine, smells like wine, looks like wine. When you drink this physical component, you still digest wine. And none should believe they taste or digest blood, for they are not. So, since transubstantiation is not about transforming wine into blood on a physical level, what is it about? It about the essence/substance (not sure which term would fit the Latin substantia more here, perhaps Grackle would know). It is about transforming the substance of wine into the substance of Christ, to allow for communion.
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  #421  
Old 06-20-2017, 02:11 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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Have no worries, I am not mad at you, I am simply concerned for your well-being.

Now, as for transubstantiation, it seems you are misinterpreting the concept. I do not blame you, from what I could gather, you are a deeply materialistic person, and materialists have a hard time working with such concepts. Though it would be suitable to not be judgmental over something you are not familiar enough with.

So, what does transubstantiation truly mean? I will try to explain it differently than Grackle, hopefully to provide more angles. The concept is not supposed to transform the physical properties of wine and bread, at that level, they still remain the same. The wine still tastes like wine, smells like wine, looks like wine. When you drink this physical component, you still digest wine. And none should believe they taste or digest blood, for they are not. So, since transubstantiation is not about transforming wine into blood on a physical level, what is it about? It about the essence/substance (not sure which term would fit the Latin substantia more here, perhaps Grackle would know). It is about transforming the substance of wine into the substance of Christ, to allow for communion.
Is that how they try to reason it away now?
What part of that makes them want to force their beliefs about not drinking on Sundays on everyone else?
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  #422  
Old 06-20-2017, 02:41 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Is that how they try to reason it away now?
What part of that makes them want to force their beliefs about not drinking on Sundays on everyone else?
That is how it always have been, really. And I can't answer your second question, as it really seems a conjecture on your part. Or a localized phenomenon not represenative of the whole. I have never noticed any local Catholics having a problem with Sunday alcohol drinking.

Historically, the reason why you couldn't have bought alcohol on Sundays was not because of alcohol itself, but because Sundays were not workdays, and many merchants did hold onto this, although certainly not all. Now, I can't speak for the other parts of the world, as my knowledge is lacking in this regard, but in Central Europe, this actually meant that Sundays were the most heavy days on drinking, at least when speaking of rural regions, where the men had to literally work dawn to sunset each day.
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  #423  
Old 06-20-2017, 02:43 AM
Kakwakas Kakwakas is offline

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That is how it always have been, really. And I can't answer your second question, as it really seems a conjecture on your part. Or a localized phenomenon not represenative of the whole. I have never noticed any local Catholics having a problem with Sunday alcohol drinking.

Historically, the reason why you couldn't have bought alcohol on Sundays was not because of alcohol itself, but because Sundays were not workdays, and many merchants did hold onto this, although certainly not all. Now, I can't speak for the other parts of the world, as my knowledge is lacking in this regard, but in Central Europe, this actually meant that Sundays were the most heavy days on drinking, at least when speaking of rural regions, where the men had to literally work dawn to sunset each day.
I'm pretty sure it was actually the Puritans who ruined the whole "alcohol on Sundays" thing. You know, the guys who think you go to Hell for dancing.
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  #424  
Old 06-20-2017, 02:47 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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I'm pretty sure it was actually the Puritans who ruined the whole "alcohol on Sundays" thing. You know, the guys who think you go to Hell for dancing.
You mean those guys who have made even our more concervative Christians think your country is absolutely nuts? Sure then, I thought you were speaking of Catholics.
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  #425  
Old 06-20-2017, 07:41 PM
PajamaSalad PajamaSalad is offline

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I don't get why some people hate religious people so much. I may think the Amish are weird but I don't see how what they are doing really impacts me unless they are selling cheap yummy food on a market.
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