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Old 02-07-2017, 11:22 AM
OnyxWatcher OnyxWatcher is offline

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PvP Symbol - Alliance Alterac mountains' and nation's fate

Two questions.
1. What exactly geo-politically happened with Alterac Mountains after pacification of the Nation of Alterac during Second War? Didn't Alliance nations have claims toward those lands? Lordaeron, Stromgarde, Wildhammer Clan, Dalaran and maybe Gilneas - these all bordered former Alterac Kingdom. Kul Tiras and Quel'Thalas perhaps or even for sure wanted some benefits too. They were important parties among Alliance. Bronzebeards? Dwarves are known as stubborn and greedy rather. And Gnomes. Ok, I save the Gnomes because fuck them. Completely uneeded race in this game. All they do in-game and lore could dwarves do.
2. How this "pacification" looked? Did they slaughter/enslaved all of citizens? Strahnbrad was former Alterac town I think, so I think they left civil people alive, but im not sure.

Were these matters mentioned in WoW or novels?

Map for better analization:

Last edited by Shaman; 02-08-2017 at 11:52 AM..
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Old 02-07-2017, 11:56 AM
Whitrix Whitrix is offline

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Stromgarde, Gilneas and Lordaeron were at odds with the issue (Stromgarde wanted to annex the east part of the country and Gilneas and Lordaeron supported different claims to the throne from Perenolde's family), and after the charming Lord Prestor disappeared we know nothing of what happened to the nation between then and WoW.

Considering Jaina's expedition to Kalimdor had brigades from every nation except Dalaran and Alterac, and the fact that we know there was some kind of anarchy period that ended with the region contested between the Syndicate and ogres, I guess Alterac did in fact disappear as a nation after the Second War and anarchy has reigned there until now.

Aliden was the leader of the Syndicate and was the son of the king, so him not being declared a king was maybe the consequence of the different nations never addressing the problem with the nation, as strange as it seems with so many years to do it, more over as Gilneas closed itself from the rest of the world and thus the other claim, Isilden (nephew of the king), shouldn't be a problem.

Maybe there were different factions that wanted to claim the place and the rest of the Alliance just didn't bother to care even if there was a civil war or something like that there.

So, we only know that roughly 15 years after the Second War, there was no Alterac to speak of. In its place the region was ruled by a group called the Syndicate whose leader was the son of the last king. Maybe Chronicles 2 or 3 addresses that void.
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Old 02-07-2017, 12:13 PM
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Wasn't Strahnbrad part of Alterac in WCII and it became part of Lordaeron in WCIII? That implies at least some of the land was ceded to Lordaeron between the two wars.
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Old 02-07-2017, 12:35 PM
OnyxWatcher OnyxWatcher is offline

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Thank you, Whitrix.
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Old 02-07-2017, 01:09 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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It was a decade of diplomacy and war, described only in our forum game we had: http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/...d.php?t=215093

But seriously, Whitrix gave you a good answer. The novels I know of with information are Day of the Dragon (2001) and the novels for Tides of Darkness (2007) and Beyond the Dark Portal (2008).

The ToD and BtDP novels say that Alterac wasn't destroyed in the Second War. It was just occupied by Lordaeron soldiers led by King Terenas - presumably with little struggle. Perenolde was left alive and kept under house arrest until the Alliance nations could agree on Alterac's fate. In the BtDP novel, Teron Gorefiend and Deathwing meet with Perenolde, who gives the Book of Medivh in exchange for them destroying the Alliance occupiers in Alterac. It's vague on details after this.

Day of the Dragon was written earlier, but it covers the time a few years after these events (well, it does NOW anyway). It gave a fun depiction of the geopolitical setup after the Second War and Draenor Invasion... Stromgarde wanted to annex half of Alterac, Lordaeron wanted to put a favorable ruler on the throne (arguably a puppet), Gilneas had Isiden Perenolde (Aiden's nephew) as a refugee and leaned to supporting his claim on the throne so Gilneas would be granted favors - including harbor rights in Alterac, which in turn threatened Kul Tiras's interest in remaining the premier naval power.

A lot of this is difficult to grasp nowadays, since DotD lore is on shaky ground. Now, did Alterac share a border with Stromgarde? Now, did Alterac have a coastline? Hard to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omacron View Post
Wasn't Strahnbrad part of Alterac in WCII and it became part of Lordaeron in WCIII? That implies at least some of the land was ceded to Lordaeron between the two wars.
The name Strahnbrad came from WCIII, right? So it sort of depends on what WCIII intended it to be presented as.

I know Stratholme changed a lot between WCII and WCIII. Marthen made an interesting explanation to reconcile them. Along with other Lordaeron-or-not? territories like Durneholde Keep.
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Old 02-07-2017, 01:12 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Speaking of Alterac's former territory, there's a number of things that need to be kept in mind.

1. Warcraft III clearly states that Strahnbrad and (Alteraci) Brill are situated in Alterac. Possibly also Andorhal, though that seems too unlikely given the territorial development in World of Warcraft.

2. The non-canon Warcraft Adventures clearly stated that Blackmoore was of Alteraci nationality and placed Durnholde inside that country. Even though we can't take that as given, there's some merit to that thought. Durnholde is clearly separated from the rest of the Lordaeron Kingdom in Warcraft III, and seeing its position in both Warcraft III and World of Warcraft, it is pretty sound it was the area of Alterac that bordered Stromgarde, and thus the area that Stromgarde wanted to annex in Day of the Dragon.

3. The Barovs might possibly be Alteraci originally, and with them, at least some of their holdings (Caer Darrow and Tarren Mill spring to mind specifically). This notion is supported by the first volume of Chronicle, which states that Alterac held dominion over much of the northlands and the massive forts there in the past. Though one could easily argue that the Barovs have gained the control of Caer Darrow only after the Second War, or the fortress had been lost to Lordaeron way earlier than that.

Edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post

The name Strahnbrad came from WCIII, right? So it sort of depends on what WCIII intended it to be presented as.

I know Stratholme changed a lot between WCII and WCIII. Marthen made an interesting explanation to reconcile them. Along with other Lordaeron-or-not? territories like Durneholde Keep.
Yes, Strahnbrad indeed comes from Warcraft III. As I said above, it is clearly stated to be in Alterac there. And interestingly, civilian NPCs in that area also use different naming conventions from the rest of Lordaeron.

Three days later in Alterac...

Last edited by Marthen; 02-07-2017 at 01:28 PM..
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Old 02-07-2017, 01:35 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Speaking of Alterac's former territory, there's a number of things that need to be kept in mind.

1. Warcraft III clearly states that Strahnbrad and (Alteraci) Brill are situated in Alterac. Possibly also Andorhal, though that seems too unlikely given the territorial development in World of Warcraft.

2. The non-canon Warcraft Adventures clearly stated that Blackmoore was of Alteraci nationality and placed Durnholde inside that country. Even though we can't take that as given, there's some merit to that thought. Durnholde is clearly separated from the rest of the Lordaeron Kingdom in Warcraft III, and seeing its position in both Warcraft III and World of Warcraft, it is pretty sound it was the area of Alterac that bordered Stromgarde, and thus the area that Stromgarde wanted to annex in Day of the Dragon.

3. The Barovs might possibly be Alteraci originally, and with them, at least some of their holdings (Caer Darrow and Tarren Mill spring to mind specifically). This notion is supported by the first volume of Chronicle, which states that Alterac held dominion over much of the northlands and the massive forts there in the past. Though one could easily argue that the Barovs have gained the control of Caer Darrow only after the Second War, or the fortress had been lost to Lordaeron way earlier than that.

Edit:



Yes, Strahnbrad indeed comes from Warcraft III. As I said above, it is clearly stated to be in Alterac there. And interestingly, civilian NPCs in that area also use different naming conventions from the rest of Lordaeron.
Ooh, what were those civilian names?

Speaking of naming conventions, I told you guys my Alterac Mage theory? That in some other universe, Drenden of the Kirin Tor (described in DotD, RtD, and nowhere else methinks) is the very same Alterac Mage who delivers the Book of Medivh to the Horde in BtDP Orc Mission X and has a cutscene in the Playstation version. I base this on Drenden being an abandoned character, his DotD description being a match for the standard mage unit from WCII (youngish but with a beard and booming voice), and his name ending in "den" like anyone important from Alterac.

EDIT: Good catch with the loading screen!
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Old 02-07-2017, 01:42 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Ooh, what were those civilian names?

Speaking of naming conventions, I told you guys my Alterac Mage theory? That in some other universe, Drenden of the Kirin Tor (described in DotD, RtD, and nowhere else methinks) is the very same Alterac Mage who delivers the Book of Medivh to the Horde in BtDP Orc Mission X and has a cutscene in the Playstation version. I base this on Drenden being an abandoned character, his DotD description being a match for the standard mage unit from WCII (youngish but with a beard and booming voice), and his name ending in "den" like anyone important from Alterac.
Marie Claire, Jillian, Splendora, Daunell, Gerard, Benedict etc. There's much Romance influence.

Anyway, that theory's great!
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Old 02-07-2017, 01:51 PM
Drusus Drusus is offline

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My theory is that Alterac City was just left in ruins after the war, but Strahnbrad remained. The Orcs made the countryside a constant target for raids, the Syndicate further compounded the problem and by the time the Scourge arrived there were more important things to worry about. By the time Lordaeron was ditched, the Syndicate just moved in unopposed to take what pretty much nobody cared for anymore until the Ogres turned up.
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Old 02-07-2017, 02:05 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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This may change with Chronicle II, but I believe the only official confirmation of Aiden Perenolde's death comes from a tweet. No details of when or how.
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Old 02-07-2017, 02:30 PM
OnyxWatcher OnyxWatcher is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
harbor rights in Alterac
So Hillsbrad Foothills belonged to Alterac Kingdom?
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Old 02-07-2017, 02:35 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnyxWatcher View Post
So Hillsbrad Foothills belonged to Alterac Kingdom?
It's easier to find an Alterac coastline (and an Alterac-Stromgarde border) on the WCII map, which Knaak was clearly referencing when he wrote DotD.

https://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/wow...8f57bd24021165

I think Marthen's adaptation has Alterac's naval access via the southern river (is it still called the Thondroril River, sharing a name with the northern one?), which connects the Great Sea to Darrowmere Lake.

EDIT: But even in WCII, the Hillsbrad Foothills were specifically in southern Lordaeron. It made a big deal about Azeroth/Stormwind's refugees being allowed to settle in Terenas's land, and they settled in Hillsbrad ("near the Southshore region of Lordaeron", per the manual's words).

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Old 02-07-2017, 02:37 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnyxWatcher View Post
So Hillsbrad Foothills belonged to Alterac Kingdom?
Well, Baron was speaking of Day of the Dragon there, which was written with the Warcraft II map mind. On the other hand, as I implied above, it is possible that Alterac indeed had owned the eastern portion of the Hillsbrad Foothills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I think Marthen's adaptation has Alterac's naval access via the southern river (is it still called the Thondroril River, sharing a name with the northern one?), which connects the Great Sea to Darrowmere Lake.

Which adaptation do you mean? Also, the river is not called the Thondroril River.

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Old 02-07-2017, 02:46 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Well, Baron was speaking of Day of the Dragon there, which was written with the Warcraft II map mind. On the other hand, as I implied above, it is possible that Alterac indeed had owned the eastern portion of the Hillsbrad Foothills.




Which adaptation do you mean? Also, the river is not called the Thondroril River.
I thought you had a map with Alterac touching that river.

Does the river really have no name?
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Old 02-07-2017, 02:49 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
I thought you had a map with Alterac touching that river.

Does the river really have no name?
Speaking of this?

I simply call it the Chillwind River, but it's not an official name, it has none.
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Old 02-07-2017, 02:52 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Quote:
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Speaking of this?

I simply call it the Chillwind River, but it's not an official name, it has none.
Okay, you gave it oldschool borders. I like it.

...knowing Blizzard still hasn't named that river kind of pisses me off for silly reasons. It all feels like a state of limbo and mystery, much like the questions asked by this thread's creator. Ah well.

Aiden Perenolde died at some point. Something happened to Isiden, or maybe it didn't. Alterac included an undefined area of territory that may or may not have touched Stromgarde and/or a body of water. The nearby major river that may or may not connect it to the Great Sea or Darrowmere does not have a name. And Darrowmere, which may or may not have held an ancient druidic runestone and may or may not have seen battles in the war...

...but nevermind that. I actually am excited about Chronicle II.

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Old 02-07-2017, 03:00 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Aiden Perenolde died at some point. Something happened to Isiden, or maybe it didn't. Alterac included an undefined area of territory that may or may not have touched Stromgarde and/or a body of water.
A month and we will know for sure in any case.

Edit: Well, at least we will know what territory Alterac owned, whether it had an access to the sea or not, what happened to it and so on.

Last edited by Marthen; 02-07-2017 at 03:14 PM..
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Old 02-07-2017, 04:04 PM
OnyxWatcher OnyxWatcher is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Marie Claire, Jillian, Splendora, Daunell, Gerard, Benedict etc. There's much Romance influence.

Anyway, that theory's great!
Does Alterac have more romance influences?
I saw it like this always:
Lordaeron - classic heroic fantasy kingdom
Alterac - the Swiss
Gilneas - the British
Stromgarde - once Poles (because colors and coat of arms) now they remind me medieval version Romans
Dalaran - just mages
Kul Tiras - Spaniards
Azeroth - Franks
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Old 02-07-2017, 04:41 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnyxWatcher View Post
Does Alterac have more romance influences?
I saw it like this always:
Lordaeron - classic heroic fantasy kingdom
Alterac - the Swiss
Gilneas - the British
Stromgarde - once Poles (because colors and coat of arms) now they remind me medieval version Romans
Dalaran - just mages
Kul Tiras - Spaniards
Azeroth - Franks
Well, there are different elements. Lordaeron may have generic fantasy architecture, but its naming conventions are frequently German specific (in WoW, right?).

Kul Tiras may have Spanish influences but is also an island merchant-navy nation that makes me think Elizabethan England.

Stromgarde's military mindset, small size, and red color has always made me think there's Sparta influence in there.

Before Gilneas was Victorian, I saw it as Switzerland because of isolationism in the major wars, which it could do because of geography and its military.

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Old 02-07-2017, 05:07 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
Well, there are different elements. Lordaeron may have generic fantasy architecture, but its naming conventions are frequently German specific (in WoW, right?).

Kul Tiras may have Spanish influences but is also an island merchant-navy nation that makes me think Elizabethan England.

Stromgarde's military mindset, small size, and red color has always made me think there's Sparta influence in there.

Before Gilneas was Victorian, I saw it as Switzerland because of isolationism in the major wars, which it could do because of geography and its military.
I wouldn't say that Lordaeron does sport generic fantasy architecture only, it's capital city (at least in Warcraft III) does have some novelty in it, especially with those Roman-esque and Classical themes. At the same time, the whole decentralization feel (principalities, free cities) reeks of the Medieval Reich, although there's also a lot of Scandinavian feel (names such as Vandermar, Stratholme and other -holmes, Tirisfal), which coupled with the religious themes reminds me of the crusading Valdemarian Denmark.
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Old 02-07-2017, 05:20 PM
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The various domes in the warcraft III cinematic Lordaeron made me think Greek-Orthodox.
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Old 02-07-2017, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnyxWatcher View Post
Does Alterac have more romance influences?
I saw it like this always:
Lordaeron - classic heroic fantasy kingdom
Alterac - the Swiss
Gilneas - the British
Stromgarde - once Poles (because colors and coat of arms) now they remind me medieval version Romans
Dalaran - just mages
Kul Tiras - Spaniards
Azeroth - Franks
Let's not forget that Stromgarde is described as being in highlands, there's lots of standing stones in their kingdom and they directly descend from a line of barbarian kings. They've probably got a lot of Celtic/Scottish influence there, too.

And yeah, let's remember that MoP gave Lordaeronians German accents for some reason.
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Old 02-07-2017, 05:44 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

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Let's not forget that Stromgarde is described as being in highlands, there's lots of standing stones in their kingdom and they directly descend from a line of barbarian kings. They've probably got a lot of Celtic/Scottish influence there, too.

And yeah, let's remember that MoP gave Lordaeronians German accents for some reason.
It works well with their proximity to Aerie Peak, which has always felt a little Celtic to me. Even apart from the Dwarf-Scottish accent.

I'm pretty sure if our world had the potential for flying mounts, the Celts would have learned to ride them and thrown cabers from them.
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Old 02-07-2017, 05:57 PM
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It works well with their proximity to Aerie Peak, which has always felt a little Celtic to me. Even apart from the Dwarf-Scottish accent.

I'm pretty sure if our world had the potential for flying mounts, the Celts would have learned to ride them and thrown cabers from them.
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Old 02-07-2017, 06:09 PM
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Alterac ought to belong to the Forsaken
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