Scrolls of Lore Forums  

Go Back   Scrolls of Lore Forums > WarCraft Discussion > WarCraft Lore Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-25-2017, 06:01 AM
OnyxWatcher OnyxWatcher is offline

Druid of the Talon
OnyxWatcher's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Poland
Posts: 86

Default Venegance for Zul'Jin?

Why darkspear trolls recruit quote is referencing to Zul'Jin?

I've heard there were no jungle trolls in early Warcraft 3 development phases and "blue trolls" were just "these good forest trolls" so including Blizzard laziness for such trivia, it could be explainable.
But, WoW playable troll /charge sounds "For Zul'Jin!".

Do I not know about something?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-25-2017, 06:28 AM
Nazja Nazja is offline

Trade Baroness - Moderator
Nazja's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: All the lands of Wonder.
Posts: 40,906

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnyxWatcher View Post
Why darkspear trolls recruit quote is referencing to Zul'Jin?

I've heard there were no jungle trolls in early Warcraft 3 development phases and "blue trolls" were just "these good forest trolls" so including Blizzard laziness for such trivia, it could be explainable.
But, WoW playable troll /charge sounds "For Zul'Jin!".

Do I not know about something?
Because Zul'jin rekindled the hope of all trolls who'd heard of him, not only the forest trolls. Like Zul after him, Zul'jin gave them reason to believe that they could regain their lost glory and reclaim their lands.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-25-2017, 06:50 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

Echo of the Past
BaronGrackle's Avatar
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 15,162

Default

Zul'jin's clothing style and inexplicable optimism may have been strange, but he was the bravest troll of all. Here's a cut scene from the recent Warcraft movie:

Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-25-2017, 06:50 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

Eternal
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 4,972

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnyxWatcher View Post
Why darkspear trolls recruit quote is referencing to Zul'Jin?

I've heard there were no jungle trolls in early Warcraft 3 development phases and "blue trolls" were just "these good forest trolls" so including Blizzard laziness for such trivia, it could be explainable.
But, WoW playable troll /charge sounds "For Zul'Jin!".

Do I not know about something?
I think it is just a remnant of the early Warcraft III/World of Warcraft drafts and concepts. As you correctly mention, there were no forest trolls or jungle trolls early on, there were just trolls, same as in Warcraft II. According to one of the old previews, the trolls of Lordaeron, including Zu'jin, were to be wiped out by the Alliance after the Second War, with only fringe tribes surviving, yet still revering Zul'jin. Of course, Blizzard had decided to change this afterwards, possibly to allow them to make the forest trolls a hostile NPC faction in order to turn Lordaeron more diverse, but this little bit had survived well until the release of the MMO (just as many other rather obscure bits).
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-25-2017, 06:56 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

Echo of the Past
BaronGrackle's Avatar
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 15,162

Default

But seriously? Marthen gave you the real-world answer, and Nazja gave gave you the official in-universe explanation that Blizzard invented later.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-25-2017, 09:46 AM
Almed Almed is offline

Banished
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 314

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
I think it is just a remnant of the early Warcraft III/World of Warcraft drafts and concepts. As you correctly mention, there were no forest trolls or jungle trolls early on, there were just trolls, same as in Warcraft II. According to one of the old previews, the trolls of Lordaeron, including Zu'jin, were to be wiped out by the Alliance after the Second War, with only fringe tribes surviving, yet still revering Zul'jin. Of course, Blizzard had decided to change this afterwards, possibly to allow them to make the forest trolls a hostile NPC faction in order to turn Lordaeron more diverse, but this little bit had survived well until the release of the MMO (just as many other rather obscure bits).
How would the Alliance wiping out the Trolls fit with themnnot doing it to the Orcs?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-25-2017, 10:30 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

Echo of the Past
BaronGrackle's Avatar
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 15,162

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almed View Post
How would the Alliance wiping out the Trolls fit with themnnot doing it to the Orcs?
Any number of reasons would work.

1) Maybe for generations, the humans/elves/dwarves have determined the only good troll is a dead troll, with a disgust and animosity that far exceeds anything they feel toward the newcomer orcs.

2) The Amani still had territory that some in the Alliance may have coveted, so it would have to be conquered.

3) It probably wasn't practical to intern trolls. The orcs stopped trying to escape when their lethargy hit, but this wouldn't impact trolls.

An orc who escaped would have no idea where to go, but a troll would be familiar with Lordaeron geography and have an easier time finding his tribes again (compare to the colonial America situation, with African slaves vs. Amerindian slaves). The Alliance would quickly learn that if they took a troll prisoner, he'd be free and killing humans/elves again in a week. Much like Zul'jin himself.

Of the trolls that were captured, they probably died in larger numbers to things like gladiator matches (see LotC, one of the few examples we have of an interned troll) because gladiatorial combat was likely more intuitive to an orc or ogre.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-25-2017, 11:22 AM
Almed Almed is offline

Banished
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 314

Default

I'm guessing that would have been an example of darkening the Alliance?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-25-2017, 11:27 AM
Marthen Marthen is offline

Eternal
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 4,972

Default

Not sure how much should we take the lethargy into consideration, these early concepts (1999) were very, very different from what we ultimately got. It is possible that at that point, there was still no lethargy, only Black Ale poisoning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almed View Post
I'm guessing that would have been an example of darkening the Alliance?
Amongst other things, yes. We also know that early drafts of Warcraft III had the human nations at war against each other, the humans poisoning the orcs, the Cult of the Damned being far more satanistic and far reaching, etc.

Last edited by Marthen; 05-25-2017 at 11:53 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-25-2017, 11:54 AM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

Echo of the Past
BaronGrackle's Avatar
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 15,162

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Not sure how much should we take the lethargy into consideration, these early concepts (1999) were very, very different from what we ultimately got. It is possible that at that point, there was still no lethargy,
When I started reading your text, my thoughts jumped to...

Quote:
only Black Ale poisoning.
...that. I think Warcraft Adventures indicated the black ale was specially (magically?) manufactured. It could have affected orcs much worse than trolls.

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Almed View Post
I'm guessing that would have been an example of darkening the Alliance
Well, it's consistent with the WC2 manual. If you want to see a sympathetic depiction of the Horde in the old lore, look to the trolls.

Quote:
The Trolls of Lordaeron have suffered ages of attrition at the hands of the Humans, Dwarves, and Elves.
Quote:
Zuljin knows that only an alliance with the Orcs will save his people.

Last edited by BaronGrackle; 05-25-2017 at 12:02 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-25-2017, 12:01 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

Eternal
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 4,972

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronGrackle View Post
When I started reading your text, my thoughts jumped to...



...that. I think Warcraft Adventures indicated the black ale was specially (magically?) manufactured. It could have affected orcs much worse than trolls.
I think I should have said no lethargy of demonic origin, that's what I meant.

--------------------------

If I remember correctly, it was invented and manufactured by the gnomes, so certainly specially, though probably not magically. But it is fairly possible that trolls were affected little or not at all, who know what those gnome alchemists used in making it.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-25-2017, 01:49 PM
Almed Almed is offline

Banished
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 314

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marthen View Post
Not sure how much should we take the lethargy into consideration, these early concepts (1999) were very, very different from what we ultimately got. It is possible that at that point, there was still no lethargy, only Black Ale poisoning.



Amongst other things, yes. We also know that early drafts of Warcraft III had the human nations at war against each other, the humans poisoning the orcs, the Cult of the Damned being far more satanistic and far reaching, etc.

Do you have some sources for this? Especially about the cultists? And the Orcs getting poisoned?
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-25-2017, 01:58 PM
Marthen Marthen is offline

Eternal
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 4,972

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almed View Post
Do you have some sources for this? Especially about the cultists? And the Orcs getting poisoned?
There was one Germam preview mentioning the stuff about the war and the cult. I will try to make a scan. As for the poisoning, I meant Black Ale.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-25-2017, 07:21 PM
OnyxWatcher OnyxWatcher is offline

Druid of the Talon
OnyxWatcher's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Poland
Posts: 86

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazja View Post
Because Zul'jin rekindled the hope of all trolls who'd heard of him, not only the forest trolls. Like Zul after him, Zul'jin gave them reason to believe that they could regain their lost glory and reclaim their lands.
That still makes no sense since TBC we kill Zuljin.

Also warcry "for zuljin" in jungle trolls' mouth sounds like Italian warcrying "For Adolph John I, Count Palatine of Kleeburg !".
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-25-2017, 11:08 PM
BaronGrackle BaronGrackle is offline

Echo of the Past
BaronGrackle's Avatar
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 15,162

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnyxWatcher View Post
That still makes no sense since TBC we kill Zuljin.

Also warcry "for zuljin" in jungle trolls' mouth sounds like Italian warcrying "For Adolph John I, Count Palatine of Kleeburg !".
Yeah, well.

Maybe during Gods of Zul'aman, that quote becomes literal. "FOR ZUL'JIN! THIS AXE OF DEATH IS FOR ZUL'JIN! FOR HIS SKULL!"
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 05-26-2017, 02:45 AM
Almed Almed is offline

Banished
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 314

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnyxWatcher View Post
we kill Zuljin.
We saw how that had turned out.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
trolls, zul'jin

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.